Blood Ravens reference in A Thousand Sons

[Tigurius Marius]

::Possible Spoilers If you haven't read Prospero Burns yet - Warning! Now you know!::

 

I don't know about the rest of you, but I just got done reading Prospero Burns. I was hoping for more back story but noticed something interesting... Abnett mentions that the Space Wolves only prosecuted the attack on Prospero and then they left the clean up to supporting agencies. Also, when the main character finally met his handler - still shakey on this reference - I'm not sure if the Amon was a demon or actually one of the sons.

 

The reason I mention this is because not only did the character Amon hide in plain sight from the wolves, but the custodius as well! If this is true, it easy to consider that maybe the sons had sleeper troops within the Adminstration or brain washed possible lackey's into saving the geneseed and then later transporting the seed to mars(here-say, but possible - read somewhere that the possibility of the geneseed was stored on mars and then re-released). Granted I'm running my assumptions from rumors and fluff since our good Mr. Abnett dismisses the whole aftermath - which again leaves us to argue amongst ourselves again... Thoughts or criticisms?

[Gree]

Abnett mentions that the Space Wolves only prosecuted the attack on Prospero and then they left the clean up to supporting agencies. Also, when the main character finally met his handler - still shakey on this reference - I'm not sure if the Amon was a demon or actually one of the sons.

 

It's definitely a daemon. It shapeshifts into an unholy clone-abomination of Horus and flat out admits to being a daemon and he even says the real Amon was with Magnus the entire time. He even shapeshifts into a number of different disguises to mock Kaspar.

 

But the loss of the Rhino STC isn't temporary.

 

It's specifically stated in the 5th Edition SM codex that the Imperium no longer has the capability to construct them.

 

could you tell me where it says this? (page maybe?) I remember reading that there were whole forgeworlds turning out rhinos at one point

 

Index Astartes: Rhino states that only the Mechanicus and the Astartes can build new Rhinos.

[Blckbuster]

Abnett mentions that the Space Wolves only prosecuted the attack on Prospero and then they left the clean up to supporting agencies. Also, when the main character finally met his handler - still shakey on this reference - I'm not sure if the Amon was a demon or actually one of the sons.

 

It's definitely a daemon. It shapeshifts into an unholy clone-abomination of Horus and flat out admits to being a daemon and he even says the real Amon was with Magnus the entire time. He even shapeshifts into a number of different disguises to mock Kaspar.

 

But the loss of the Rhino STC isn't temporary.

 

It's specifically stated in the 5th Edition SM codex that the Imperium no longer has the capability to construct them.

 

could you tell me where it says this? (page maybe?) I remember reading that there were whole forgeworlds turning out rhinos at one point

 

Index Astartes: Rhino states that only the Mechanicus and the Astartes can build new Rhinos.

 

"only" the Mechanicus and Astartes? that's actually not much of a barrier to construction

[Aegnor]

Yeah, SM codex said that the Rhino used to be the backbone of humanity's military, but that the knowledge has "faded" and now only the Marines field them in any numbers. I'd say the Imperium definitely can still make Rhinos - would make no sense apart from anything else that they can make Razorbacks, Whirlwinds, Predators etc, all based on Rhinos, and not the Rhino itself.

[obs0l3te]

I glanced over this.. but real quick...

 

If you recall Magnus sent his fleet away from prospero before the wolves attacked....so those thousand sons never made it to the EoT. This is right before the wolves attack in Thousand Sons.

 

As for giving traitor legions a "retry" look at the Death Guard, and Luna Wolf that lived, they are given second chances.. and Malcador tells Garro to "Gather Men from the legions, traitor and loyal alike"

 

AND

 

In 1st heretic it tells some of where the members of the two missing legions went to... or at least its hinted...

 

The puzzle pieces just match up for Blood Ravens and Thousand Sons.

 

Seems like Malcador is up to his old tricks again.

[Kizzdougs]

I glanced over this.. but real quick...

 

If you recall Magnus sent his fleet away from prospero before the wolves attacked....so those thousand sons never made it to the EoT. This is right before the wolves attack in Thousand Sons.

 

As for giving traitor legions a "retry" look at the Death Guard, and Luna Wolf that lived, they are given second chances.. and Malcador tells Garro to "Gather Men from the legions, traitor and loyal alike"

 

AND

 

In 1st heretic it tells some of where the members of the two missing legions went to... or at least its hinted...

 

The puzzle pieces just match up for Blood Ravens and Thousand Sons.

 

Seems like Malcador is up to his old tricks again.

 

 

Sounds reasonable enough and i certainly believe the Blood Ravens are a TS successor. However, when you say "Malcador is up to his old tricks again", what exactly do you mean? Malcador is dead. He died on the Golden Throne. Do you mean that he protected them durring the heresy or founded them after?

[Gv0zD]

I doubt it hints to the fact that BR are TS successor chapter. IMHO the mentioned "raven" and "lost sons" relate to Corvidae (Latin word for ravens) - Ahriman's sect. "Lost sons" - they were left by their primarch to fight SW on their own. "Raven of blood" - well they killed a lot of their former brothers, so their blood on the Corvidae's hands.

[randian]

Yeah, SM codex said that the Rhino used to be the backbone of humanity's military, but that the knowledge has "faded" and now only the Marines field them in any numbers.

If you have Rhinos being built on thousands of planets, just what galactic calamity could have caused all of them to forget? This is where 40k's "grimdark" bit devolves into utter stupidity.

[Ladislao]

Blood Ravens looks too stable to be TS, unless they found a way to "repair" the gene-seed.

 

 

Rumors were ( don ask me the source, i really cannot remember) br geneseed was half ts, half from anouther loyal source

[Jelle1880]

Only just now finished A Thousand Sons, and it seems like they do indeed mean Blood Ravens.

However, why would the Imperium allow the Blood Ravens to be formed ? Surely if the Emperor says that who ever meddles with 'sorcery' should be punished this is law ?

 

Although what Gv0zD says would make sense too, but it's a bit far fetched for people unfamiliar with Latin, is it not ? :)

[Tigurius Marius]

Gentleman!!! I went to the sources and Mr. Abnett was kind enough to reply - I swear Guys you can't make this :cusse up! I'm posting the letter I sent to Mr. Abnett and his Reply. Hopefully this clears up their stance on this and gives us BR fans some piece of mind!!!

 

 

root@danabnett.com to me

show details 1:19 AM (10 hours ago)

Hi Rick

 

Thanks for the kind words.

 

Not quite sure what I can say to help, except that my understanding is that Graham's quote was a specific nod to the idea that the BR would one day rise from the TS

geneseed. As far as I'm concerned, that's canonical....I'm not entirely certain why it should be controversial (am I naive?)...and I'm also not quite sure how much MORE

obvious you needed Graham to be about it? :)

 

Does that help?

 

Dan

 

 

 

On Thu 30/12/10 5:59 PM , Rick S------a r--------@gmail.com sent:

> Good afternoon from the US!

> I finally got to read your next installation in the Horus Heresy

> series, you truly took the perspective of story-telling in a new

> direction! Truly wonderful! Also, looking forward to your next

> Guant's book and congratulations on "Ultramarine". Once I heard

> you wrote the screen play, I brought the collector's edition

> straight away!

> Enough with the brown nosing... I'm writing because I'm

> blood raven's fan (yes - one of those nutters). Since both you

> and Mr. McNeill took on the role of addressing the Prospero incident

> between the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves - we in the BR community

> were eagerly awaiting some more back story in the Prospero

> _Aftermath... _I can understand you were not contracted to write

> about that or anything with BR fluff. Anything addressing this

> issue would help if your able to talk about it or if you even care to

> speculate.

> Giving you some back story into the BR conflict if you haven't

> kept tabs on this. It's been greatly hinted at the Blood Ravens

> were made from the Thousand Sons geneseed - but no canon writers want

> to touch this subject other then Mr. Goto since it's so vague and

> let's face it! The Blood Raven's are a made up chapter from a

> video game - granted a well received game, but a video game.

> Major controversy started with your fellow writer, Mr. McNeill when

> he put "Raven of Blood" quote in his book. Since you confirmed you

> were working with him in one of your video blogs, some of the readers

> hoped you would maybe put this issue to bed in Prospero Burns.

> Sadly, the conflict rages on...

> It would be really cool if either you or Mr. McNeill would be able to

> address this issue at a later date, if your able to talk about it and

> not under contractual silence. Having some gaming company break the

> news gives a bad spin to the lore in someways - but many fans respect

> the words of their treasured author's much more. I respect your

> view if you were to disagree. But still, any closure to this debate

> especially for an esteemed writer as yourself would go a long way to

> satiating the needs of the masses. Thank you again for your time

> and putting up with my fanboy rants. I wish you luck in your

> future endeavorers and look forward to more of your works!

> Sincerely,

> Rick S---------a

>

[Tigurius Marius]

Btw - I please quote me - this letter is legitimate! Even confirm with Mr. Abnett please! You can reach his email from his website found off the black library.

[Midgard]

Here is my take on it. Even if we disregard Goto's books completely, here is what we know for sure:

 

1) In "A Thousand Sons",

mutations seem to strike the Sons who draw too much on the Warp during the Burning of Prospero

. Hence, it is possible that using the Warp LESS could give some stability to the gene-seed. Similarly, the Wolves in "Prospero Burns" make a claim that their primary issue with the Sons' tactics is that the Sons crossed the line into using sorcery/warpcraft too much - but a lesser amount of warpcraft is used even by the Wolves themselves.

 

2) In "Prospero Burns",

Hawser's account is certainly known to the Wolves. That account includes the confirmation that Thousand Sons were essentially innocent, which is bound to be known to Russ and the higher-ups in the Wolves hierarchy. Furthermore, Hawser's account insinuates the guilt the Wolves felt about doing their duty, especially after they find out they've been manipulated into destroying a loyal Legion.

 

 

With this in mind, I could see the Wolves championing the cause of the surviving Thousand Sons that were not at Prospero, perhaps out of guilt, perhaps even as a condition of accepting the Codex Astartes as Guilliman puts it forward (of course, the Wolves' acceptance here would simply mean they would not make overt resistance to it). That would be highly ironic, in fact, if the Blood Ravens exist because of the guilt felt by those that destroyed their parent Legion...

[A D-B]

Btw - I please quote me - this letter is legitimate! Even confirm with Mr. Abnett please! You can reach his email from his website found off the black library.

 

I don't think it's canon, and unlike Dan, I consider it a fairly controversial concept (for several reasons voiced here and elsewhere). I think, like several other posters, it's either a teasing reference to the Blood Ravens (unsubstantiated, like many 40K myths) or a reference to Ahriman's exiled Thousand Sons, mostly from the Corvidae.

 

So, not to be contrary, but that's 2 of us on the Horus Heresy team that don't even agree (although really, our opinions don't mean much, since Graham wrote the thing).

[Captain Malachi]

I honestly can't see at all how it could be a reference to the BR. Multiple times in the book and elsewhere, Tzeentch is represented as a raven, and I just assumed this case was the same.

[A D-B]

I honestly can't see at all how it could be a reference to the BR. Multiple times in the book and elsewhere, Tzeentch is represented as a raven, and I just assumed this case was the same.

 

For real.

[Sidewinder 3]

...I do not agree. I do think, (And I want to believe... ;) ), that fluff wise it's a clear sign of the "secret" link that leads to the B.R. interpreted as a loyalist faction of the T.S. But you know it is just a clue...and could be misinterpreted.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Eh. They like psykers. Corvidae had their emblem. No history before M36-7 opens up the possibility of them being Dark Founding. Dark Founding have no history or records whatsoever, perhaps due to Traitor geneseed use and/or geneseed tampering (used Thousand Sons geneseed and fixed its problems). Obsessed with knowledge. Various hints in Black Library publications of varying quality.

 

My theoreticals anyway.

 

Also, a note on Ahriman's veracity- when villains tell a protagonist something shocking, it's no fun or drama for it to be entirely a lie. Ahriman could be telling a lie with the truth- the best kind of lie. This is what makes, for example, the story of Krieg Acerbus and Zso Sahaal so interesting- both sides are believable and could (given schizophrenia) both be true at the same time. Plotwise it makes no sense for Ahriman to be pulling epiphanies out of his ass.

[Clewz]

Eh. They like psykers. Corvidae had their emblem. No history before M36-7 opens up the possibility of them being Dark Founding. Dark Founding have no history or records whatsoever, perhaps due to Traitor geneseed use and/or geneseed tampering (used Thousand Sons geneseed and fixed its problems). Obsessed with knowledge. Various hints in Black Library publications of varying quality.

 

Well if Magnus couldn't fix the problems I fail to see how the Imperium would

[Blckbuster]

Eh. They like psykers. Corvidae had their emblem. No history before M36-7 opens up the possibility of them being Dark Founding. Dark Founding have no history or records whatsoever, perhaps due to Traitor geneseed use and/or geneseed tampering (used Thousand Sons geneseed and fixed its problems). Obsessed with knowledge. Various hints in Black Library publications of varying quality.

 

Well if Magnus couldn't fix the problems I fail to see how the Imperium would

 

pride goeth before a fall

[XKhalilX]

SPOILERS FOR THE BOOK 1K SONS

 

 

 

 

Right near the start it mentions one of the 1k sons groups uses the Head of a raven as its logo for its sect thing then fast foward to the near the end but just before the wolves attack Magnus sends 4 smallish fleets away from Prospero with special orders and then blocked all transmissions to and from Prospero.

 

So My theroy is they are indeed a 2nd founding of the Thousand sons or are first founding who left before the Rubric was cast and it did not effect them then got where they were told to go read their orders and boom Blood Ravens were Founded makes sense the Colour scheme the number of Psykers and the Fact there Chapter Master is a Psyker.

 

 

Whitefire, your theory I think is most solid. I know some people are tying to say it is RG being mentioned or Custodes, but come on, the quote is IMHO as black and white as you can get. It is a foreshadow of the "creation" of the Blood Ravens. I have always believed BR to be of Thousand Sons geneseed. But the idea that they are actually not a 2nd or later Founding, but a splinter group of loyalist sons who cut a deal with the Imperium makes PERFECT SENSE. The admech and Imperium let them do their thing for their loyalty as they realize no all of the astartes of falln legions are bad (Qruze, Garro, Loken, the thousand son sorceror that sacrificed himself, his name i cant remember). So basically the admech either gave them the geneseed and so the genebanks are wiped of thousand sons geneseed or they give them enough to form a full chapter and destroy the remaining and salute them and tell them good luck.

 

This I think is the truth of the origins of the Blood Ravens. I honestly dont know why people hate on them so much. I think the BR are epic, I prefer them over the ultramarines anyday. They are as boring as one can get in the 40k universe. Them and the IF give me the biggest yawn.

[randian]

The Rubric was cast inside the Eye of Terror, where proximity to the Warp makes sorcery most potent. I doubt it had the power to reach Thousand Sons outside the Eye.

 

Thousand Sons on Prospero are the only Thousand Sons known to have been teleported by Tzeentch to the Planet of the Sorcerers. Any not on Prospero were never Chaos Marines and thus not targets of the Rubric.

[Siege40k]

A D-B,

 

I really enjoy the writing! Keep it up eh?

 

A quick Q as far as the "team" you mentioned goes: How much do you guys discuss the lore and the insinuations / hints you drop in regards to 40k cannon?

 

If I don't have the appropriate Imperial Clearance I'll understand, but as a team lead for my company collaboration is key.

 

On the BR topic, I really don't see why it matters. The BR could be completely unrelated, still be just as cool and have similar connections to the Thousand Sons through their use of the Warp. Ravens = mythical birds, representatives of tzeentch, and since much like the Thousand Sons, the BR have delved a little too deep into the warp.

[myrmidons]

SPOILERS FOR THE BOOK 1K SONS

 

 

 

 

Right near the start it mentions one of the 1k sons groups uses the Head of a raven as its logo for its sect thing then fast foward to the near the end but just before the wolves attack Magnus sends 4 smallish fleets away from Prospero with special orders and then blocked all transmissions to and from Prospero.

 

So My theroy is they are indeed a 2nd founding of the Thousand sons or are first founding who left before the Rubric was cast and it did not effect them then got where they were told to go read their orders and boom Blood Ravens were Founded makes sense the Colour scheme the number of Psykers and the Fact there Chapter Master is a Psyker.

 

I would Have to agree with you there for the mere fact that it seems that the blood ravens do have an overwhelming number of Psykers, plus it only makes since that the thousand sons were trying to prove there loyalty to the emperor. as I read in the heresy Articles it was another primarch who convinced the emperor that magnus and the thousand sons were tratiors due to their study into the sorceries

[Jim Shady]

How could they be, considering the TS are Excommunicate Traitoris so why would the Imperium consider making a new chapter from the gene seed of one of the infamous traitor legions?

 

I've seen fluff thrown up that they are a mix from the RG and BA.

 

I wonder if, when Magnus sent the marines not on Prospero, they did go and waited for the Heresy to finish/settle down then they turned up and said "We don't know who we are" or something and so the Lords of Terra decided to use them as the new heirachy for a new chapter ie BR. Considering they were/are potent psykers so could have manipulated the High Lords of Terra.

 

I might be contradicting myself...

 

Meh.