Ultramarines FAQ

[Grey Mage]

It is a gunship type of vessel, with it's primary purpose to be long range fire support (the thing has something like S6 Range 60cm port and starboard Lance Batteries!) and destruction of other vessels, as opposed to the usual purpose of a Battlebarge being to breach defences and deploy Space Marines

That doesnt make it anti-codex.

 

A number of "battle barges" were simply whatever vessel was best suited for the task, wether built, salvaged, or pre-existing during the time of the great crusade. The first founding legions still have a number of these vessels left in their service or mothballed against future concerns.

 

Besides wich, the codex redefined the purpose of the space marine fleets to the destruction of orbital defenses, self defense, and launching orbital bombardments.

 

Lances excell at ALL of those, for the record. Considering the relatively pin-prick precision of an orbital bombardment its very likely that the Chapter Masters orbital bombardment is in fact a Lance Strike, much like it is in the DOW game.

[Cptn. Palladorus]

I don't see how operating a battle-barge with lances instead of whatever else they may be armed with violates the Codex Astartes. Maybe somebody with a stronger knowledge of Imperial naval operations could fill me in?

[Octavulg]

The Navy gets tetchy over Space Marines having a very few destroyers with minimal lance armament.

 

Space Marine fleets were intentionally limited to being to get marines from A to B intact and blow up planetary targets.

 

A long-range gunship is rather out-of-keeping with this, and one would expect the Ultramarines to be much closer to the spirit of such restrictions than most.

[Legatus]

Yes, the ship is definitely out of character for the Ultramarines. Once again someone at GW thought it would be a great idea to give the Ultramarines a special unit. What that persone didn't know was that it isn't actually such a great idea. It's more "not knowing ;) about Ultramarines".

[Captain Idaho]

You left out in that 1st one what the Ultramarines did during the Heresy. Perhaps it should be separated from the question?

[Legatus]

I dunno, they did something, and it may even have made an impact, but listing that seems more like "see? they did something too". They did not really distinguish themselves during the Heresy, just participated at least somewhat. And while some background states that Horus sent them deliberately that far away from terra, other background (like the 5th Edition C:SM, taken from the original C:UM) states it was their own successes during the Great Crusade that carried them so far away.

 

Perhaps for a different question?

 

 

Q. Did the Ultramarines participate in any way at all during the Horus Heresy?

A. They were not involved in the Istvaan V massacre or the battle for Terra, but they did have some bearing on the events of the Heresy. Horus had committed a considerable portion of the Word Bearers Legion to attack the Ultramarines in their home System, hoping to cripple them or even wipe them out in a surprise attack. These Word Bearer forces were therefor not present at the battle for Terra. The Ultramarines are also said to have destroyed a traitor fleet en route to support Horus when they were on their way to Terra, further relieving the defenders. They could obviously have done so much more, had they not been in such a disadvantageous position. As events went, they were not among the more cruicial or suffering Legions of the Heresy.

 

 

Edit: I mentioned the Heresy as well in that first question because it then encompasse the whole era of teh Ultramarines Legion. Questioning their successes during the Great Crusade, and seeing their meagre involvement in the Heresy, one might get the impression that the Ultramarines Legion never did anything special. They did not really do that during the Heresy, but tehy did destinguish themselves during the Crusade.

[Captain Idaho]

Ok, makes sense, but I think you need to mention that Horus sent the Ultramarines as far away from his forces as possible as he was fearful of only the Blood Angels and Ultramarines ruining his plans. It kinda takes away any questioning of their role, as it was not of their choosing.

[Legatus]

That issue is already adressed in the question about why the Ultramarines were not at the siege of Terra, which Brother Pariah has posted in the original post of this Thread. The question I suggested above specifically outlines what they did do.

[Octavulg]

Q. Why weren't the Ultramarines at the Battle of Terra during the Horus Heresy?

A. When the Horus Heresy unfolded, the Ultramarines were far away at the southeast of the galaxy. Depending on the source, it was either their own successes or a deliberate set up by Horus that had carried them so far away from Terra. Either way, when the Ultramarines learned about Horus's treason his attack on Terra was already underway. All the Ultramarines could do was race back to Terra as fast as they could, right on the heels of the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves. However, Horus had diverted a large portion of the Word Bearers to attack the Ultramarines at their home system, and they are said to have destroyed a traitor fleet en route to support Horus at Terra, so while not present at Terra directly, the Ultramarines did have at least some bearing on the events.

 

This needs to mention the Word Bearers more, as well as the Alpha Legion. And don't go on about "having a bearing on the events". You missed the battle. No shame in that. But trying to sneak in somehow looks weaselly.

 

This FAQ should really state what happened from a neutral perspective. Otherwise it loses its credibility very quickly, and just becomes a way to avoid retyping arguments as opposed to avoiding them completely.

 

You want to encapsulate the argument so people don't do it again, not encapsulate your answer to the argument. If you follow.

 

Q. Did Guilliman enforce his Codex on the other Legions/Primarchs immediately following the Heresy, and even fire upon loyalist troops, almost causing a second, more destructive Heresy?

A. The Imperium and humanity as a whole lost trust in the Astartes following the Heresy. To restore faith in them and prevent such a Heresy occurring again, Guilliman re-organised the military of the whole Imperium, not just the Space Marines. The main point of contention between the Space Marines regarding the Codex was actually only the breaking up of the Legions into Chapters. He was supported in this in particular by Corax of the Raven Guard and Khan of the White Scars and was only opposed by 3 of his brother Primarchs. As tensions increased, they came to a head when an Imperial Navy Cruiser fired upon an Imperial Fist vessel, Dorn relented and with this all the Legions split into Chapters. - Source: Index Astartes Imperial Fists and Black Templars

 

Doesn't really answer the question.

 

Did he enforce his Codex? Yes, depending on what you mean by enforce. He presented it to them as a foregone conclusion and called its chief opponent a heretic. Was it immediately following the Heresy? No. Did he fire upon loyalist troops? No. Did forces under his command do so? Yes. Did they do it of their own accord? We don't know. Was he right to do it? Maybe. Did he have the right to do it? Probably. Was he a jerk about it? Certainly.

 

I'd recommend:

 

Q: Did Guilliman force his Codex Astartes upon the other Legions and Primarchs?

 

Sort of. Guilliman presented his Codex Astartes as a foregone conclusion, and called its chief opponent a heretic. However, at the time Guilliman appears to have been commander of the entire Imperial Military - one of the High Lords of Terra (C:UM 2e calls him this, but IA: BT (or possibly IF) calls him the 'de facto' head of the Imperial military). At minimum, he had been acting as commander of the Imperial military for years through the Scouring. He was certainly in a position to propose such an idea, and arguably in a position to enforce it. Considering the reaction to it appears to have been focused around the issue of splitting the legions, it seems reasonable to conclude that that was where most objection lay, rather than with the document as a whole. Furthermore, the compilation of the Codex seems to have been publicly known - Battlefleet Gothic fluff makes reference to Corax participating in debate over what the Codex should dictate for Space Marine fleets (he won the argument). Thus, while Guilliman did in some ways force the Codex upon the other Legions/Primarchs, they had had opportunity to participate in its formation and he was in a position of authority to do so.

 

AND

 

Q: Did Guilliman's forces fire upon the Imperial Fists, almost causing a second Heresy?

 

...

 

Honestly, this one is tricky. It depends on so many things. Is the Navy Guilliman's forces? Maybe. Did Guilliman give the order? Likely not, but it's possible. Did that cause a second Heresy? Well, Dorn gave in afterward, so it could be argued it prevented one. And Guilliman did rescue the Fists from the Iron Cage. But he also called Dorn a heretic, and he rescued them after they'd acquiesced to the Codex and been badly mauled into the bargain. Not sure what the best course of action is with this one.

 

And this does raise:

 

Q: Why the hell was Guilliman in command after the Heresy? The Emperor appointed Dorn!

 

A: Foremost, the IA: BT notes how Dorn had been 'blinded to changing times'. He spent the Scouring chasing down Chaos forces and attempting to deal with the fact that the Emperor was dead. We do not know whether or not Guilliman tried to get Dorn to fulfill his responsibilities before taking action, but Dorn certainly does not seem to have stepped up. On a more practical note, Guilliman was alive (putting him ahead of a lot of other Primarchs) and had a relatively-intact legion (putting him ahead of everyone except Russ and Jonson (who was incapacitated shortly after). Who else was going to be in command? Guilliman was pretty much the only reasonable choice remaining.

 

Q. Did Guilliman take over the Imperium, breaking up the Legions to solidify his power-base?

A. The Imperium and humanity lost it's trust in Astartes and one of the causes of the Heresy was the power a few (comparitively) had over entire fleets, Legions and Imperial Guard etc, (Sources: Index Astartes Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, Codex Space Marines/Ultramarines 2nd - 5th editions) so Guilliman created the Codex as part of his re-organisation of the Imperium's military to prevent such a Heresy happening again and restore faith in the Astartes in the eyes of the Imperium. - Source: Everywhere! Most notably Codex Space Marines but even Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Black Templars.

It is worth noting at this point that Guilliman became one of the first High Lords of Terra and Lord Commander of the Imperium's military, the only man to hold command the entire of it's military. (Source: Codex Ultramarines 2nd edition) Reading this single quote logically, it is obvious that Guilliman was without a doubt a very powerful man, but did not command the Imperium at all, as the myriad of other organisations came into ascendance at this time and meant a single High Lord of Terra was unable to take complete control of the Imperium so easily. (The High Lord Vandire was an exception as he held dual posts within the High Lords council, Guilliman held only one.) The perview of the post of Lord Commander of the Imperium's military was a military position only, and therefore had no effect on the Astronomican, Astra Telepathica, Navigators Houses, the Adepts of Terra, the Adeptus Mechanicus etc.

The Ultramarines accounted for more than half the Space Marines in the field in the time of the Scouring and they were split all over the Imperium. (Sources: Codex Space Marines/Ultramarines 2nd - 5th editions) Breaking his own Legion down would do nothing positive to a bid for power, as all it did was take away his own direct influence, particularly on a long term. Indeed, the Ultramarines do not command all the other Chapters in present day 40K, and their influence is not more than that of the Space Wolves (see 13th Black Crusade) or the Blood Angels (see 2nd war for Armaggeddon).

 

There is, however, the fact that breaking the legions solidifies his power base by making sure everyone's doing things his way. Which is something many people would be deeply satisfied by.

 

Also, remember his position as Lord Commander of the military is disputed, since he's called the 'de facto' head of the military in either IA: BT or IA: IF. That piece of fluff hasn't reappeared since 2nd edition - it may or may not be current. I wouldn't flat-out overrule it from one implication in an IA, but it does call it into question.

 

A much shorter version would be:

 

A: No. Guilliman was one High Lord among many (if he was a High Lord at all), and his Codex reduced his authority over the other Astartes rather than solidifying it. The High Lords commanded him to reform the Imperial military (someone really ought to source this. I think they did, but I'm not sure). It did mean they were doing things his way, which was no doubt gratifying, but any increase in prestige was more than balanced out by the massive decrease in authority for a man who had been head of the Imperial military.

 

Q. Did Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists, hate Guilliman and his Codex?

A. No. Following the death of the Emperor, and his internment on the Golden Throne, Dorn was inconsolable. He flew into a rage and began a ruthless pursuit of the Traitor Legions as they retreated across the Imperium. The Scouring, as this time period become known, was a period of war and strife matched only by the Horus Heresy. The Imperial Fists were merciless in their pursuit, focused solely on revenge. During this time only Guilliman had the foresight and wisdom to see that if the Imperium was neglected with the sole purpose of exacting revenge, everything the Astartes and the Emperor built would die out.

During the Scouring the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines worked together to expel the Iron Warriors from many different worlds, including Olympia, the homeworld of the Iron Warriors.

Unfortunately, Dorn's anger had blinded him to the changing times. He was absent from the meetings in which the fate of the Imperium was being decided. Seven years into the Scouring, Guilliman revealed the Codex and declared the Legions to be broken apart, but Dorn refused. The ensuing argument is famous, and the root of all the false beliefs of animosity between the two Primarchs. When Dorn accused Guilliman of cowardice for not being at the Emperor's side, it was not because he actually believed his brother a coward. Dorn's entire world was falling apart. His closest brother and friend had turned traitor, his sons had been nearly destroyed during the Siege of Terra, his father had been killed, the Imperium he helped build was in ruins, and now his own brother was attempting to take is Legion from him, or so he believed. Guilliman responded to this unfounded accusation in kind, as brothers often do, calling Dorn a heretic and a rebel. It was only when the Imperial Navy, acting on its own, fired on an Imperial Fist vessel, that Dorn saw the light. He would lead his men once more into Hell against the Iron Warriors, the last great battle of the VII Legion, and they would emerge a Chapter. The Iron Cage incident is well documented, and it is undeniable that without Guilliman putting aside his personal differences and coming to the aid of the Imperial Fists, there was a very real chance that there would be no more Imperial Fists. Dorn formed the new chapters, and retrained the remnants of his original Legion to the standards of Guilliman's Codex Astartes.

In spite of the infamous argument it can be assumed that Dorn and Guilliman were close, as only brothers can be. Dorn is one of only four Primarch's honored with a statue at the Fortress of Hera on Macragge. The Ultramarines and Imperial Fists Chapters have fought together in the ten millennia since the Heresy on multiple occasions, the most recent being the battle to retake Nimbosa.

 

This is way, way longer than it needs to be. The fact that Dorn is a touchy bastard should also be pointed out.

 

And when did people become allergic to line breaks?

 

Q: Are the Ultramarines generic? (Both yes and no. Explain.)

A: Old Ultramarines: Harems and a half-Eldar Librarian. New Ultramarines: ULTRA IS BEST! Don't hate us. Hate what was done to us.

 

;)

 

Q: Is the empire of Ultramar a violation of the Codex Astartes? (No, obviously. But support your answer.)

 

Problem is that looked at from a "spirit of the rules" perspective, it is. Leaving a Chapter with eight massively productive systems that can produce hundreds of Guard regiments and one of the Imperium's most productive shipyards is giving them a disproportionate amount of power and risking catastrophe should their commander betray the Imperium. The justification for it appears to be the fact that, well, Guilliman probably trusted the Ultramarines. Which is fine, and all. But it still looks shifty.

 

* * *

Legatus:

 

Q: Are the Ultramarines generic?

A: The Ultramarines are generic in that they do not have any special units or wargear that is not available to any other average Space Marine Chapter*. They do not have any excentric quirks or personal agendas either. The Ultramarines are exceptinal in the resources available to them and in the selection of their recruits. The systems of Ultramar had once been designed to supply a full Space Marine Legion, though a lot of the industry and facilities had been given to the successor Chapters during the Second Founding. They still have access to a lot of facilities not usually available to Marines, such as their own fleet docks. Their recruits selection is exceptional in that they do not pick from children that grew up in an environment of tribal or gang conflicts, as is the case with most other Chapters. Instead, the Children of Macragge are subjected to mandatory military academies from the ages 6 to 14, so by the time they are selected to become Ultramarines they have already had about 8 years of military drill. An excellent foundation to make them into Space Marines.

 

*The Tyrannic War Veterans are an exception to this, as they are unique to the Ultramarines. However, they are also a violation of the Codex Astartes, and thus technically also in contradiction to the Ultramarines' own background. See question below.

 

You could also throw in Pariah's space-fascists angle. Which is, y'know. Definitely characterful. They're not nearly as generic as their presentation.

 

Q: Is the empire of Ultramar a violation of the Codex Astartes?

Concidering who wrote the Codex, probably not. It is worth to point out, though, that however many systems chock full of PDF a Chapter may own are of no strategic value without the fleet to transport them to other worlds. All those systems can do is defend themselves. they are not strategic assets at the disposal of the Ultramarines, and having only one system or more than that is of little consequence, except that the Chapter has more resources available to resupply and has more worlds to look after.

Ultramar has hundreds of regiments ready to join the Imperial Guard on demand, but once they are introduced into the Imperial Guard they cease to be Ultramar units. They are then under Imperial command.

 

As I point out above - you have a shipyard. And a Chapter fleet, too.

 

Q. Cannot the success of the Ultramarines Legion during the Great Crusade be attributed entirely to the Legion's enormeous size?

A. The Emperor did not present Roboute Guilliman with an already over-sized Legion. He started with a normal Legion, and the Ultramarines were already said to be faster in their progress from the very beginning. After a short time the Legion started to be reinforced by the first recruits from Macragge, and because of the thoroughly organised recruitment program on the one hand and the few casualties on the other hand the Ultramarines soon came to be the largest of the Legions. The Ultramarines' successes were not a result of the Legion's size, their size was a result of their successes.

(5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 13; 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, page 12)

 

I'd like to see some citation for most of this. The IA: Ultramarines certainly leaves the impression that their size has a lot more to do with eight planets of recruits...

 

* * *

NemFX:

A:The Codex Astartes is a tactical treatise, originally compiled by Roboute Guilliman. It details the organisation of a Space Marine chapter. However, it also contains large amounts of tactical info, from strategies, to evaluations of previous battles. These also come from a number of sources, including other Primarchs. [i'm sure there are sources elsewhere, but I don't know if any explicitly say other Primarchs, or if this is my own conjecture.]

 

The Codex is also a living document. Imperials tacticians have added to it over the millenia, adding new insights and information to further enhance the tactical value of the Tome. [i believe this is stated in the 5th Ed C:SM]

 

It is better to think of the Codex Astartes as like Sun Tzu's Art of War, in many instances, rather than a technical handbook. It provides the information to solve problems; interpretation is a large part of that. Some aspects, like organisation, however, and markings are stricter. [if this could be sourced, or if we could explain why markings are so strict. Maybe because battle has no right/wrong answers, per se, but markings can be standardised]For these reasons, Non-Codex often refers to ignoring Codex organisations, since ignoring the Codex for its tactical value is tantamount to throwing out all historical knowledge about war [This is an interpretation of Octavulg's Octaguide section about the Codex. If this could be supported that would be great. I also hope I've not misquoted the fellow xD]

 

All seems quite correct. I especially like the last part. ;)

 

* * *

 

You all missed one, however.

 

Q: Was Guilliman a jerk?

 

A: Indubitably. Of course, so were a lot of other Primarchs. Beats being boring.

 

If you don't like that answer, this one might work better ;) :

 

A: Pretty much, yeah. While he got along alright with some Primarchs under some circumstances, he had notable quarrels with Horus, Dorn and Alpharius - all of which involved him trying to tell them how to do things. He also compiled a giant book...which told everyone how to do things. Guilliman seems to have had a tendency to tell others how they could do things much better if they did them his way. Of course, considering that virtually from birth he'd been the greatest warrior and strategist his world had ever seen and that his character is based strongly upon the Emperor Augustus, this is not exactly an unreasonable characterization, and one very much in keep with the Greco-Roman themes of the Ultramarines. It's also important to bear in mind that the most common feature of the Primarchs after military greatness was an inability to tolerate each other.

[Legatus]

Q. Cannot the success of the Ultramarines Legion during the Great Crusade be attributed entirely to the Legion's enormeous size?

A. The Emperor did not present Roboute Guilliman with an already over-sized Legion. He started with a normal Legion, and the Ultramarines were already said to be faster in their progress from the very beginning. After a short time the Legion started to be reinforced by the first recruits from Macragge, and because of the thoroughly organised recruitment program on the one hand and the few casualties on the other hand the Ultramarines soon came to be the largest of the Legions. The Ultramarines' successes were not a result of the Legion's size, their size was a result of their successes.

(5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 13; 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, page 12)

I'd like to see some citation for most of this. The IA: Ultramarines certainly leaves the impression that their size has a lot more to do with eight planets of recruits...

 

The source at the end is intended for the convenience of inquisitive readers. But here you go:

 

"The Ultramarines Legion of Space Marines was assigned to the control of Roboute Guilliman and his forward base relocated to Macragge. The Primarch quickly assimilated the many wonders of the Imperium and set about his new role with skill and enthusiasm. Guilliman's chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and he led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south.

(...)

Fortress Macragge

Meanwhile, the fortress of the Ultramarines grew on Macragge. Some Ultramarines remained gehind to supervise the work, which progressed rapidly thanks to the trading network and advanced industries of the planet. Within a year a training base was established, and recruiting began on the planet Macragge and surrounding worlds. It was not long before the Ultramarines Legion received its first influx of warriors born and bred on Macragge. Thanks to the thoroughness of their organisation, the Ultramarines were able to receive constant recruits throughout the Great Crusade. because of their strong recruitment base and Roboute Guilliman's tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any other Legion."

- 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 13.

 

 

Q. Why weren't the Ultramarines at the Battle of Terra during the Horus Heresy?

(...)

This needs to mention the Word Bearers more, as well as the Alpha Legion. And don't go on about "having a bearing on the events". You missed the battle. No shame in that. But trying to sneak in somehow looks weaselly.

I think it is a sometimes voiced criticism of the Ultramarines that they did nothing during the Horus Heresy.

 

 

I'd recommend:

 

Q: Did Guilliman force his Codex Astartes upon the other Legions and Primarchs?

 

Sort of. Guilliman presented his Codex Astartes as a foregone conclusion, and called its chief opponent a heretic. However, at the time Guilliman appears to have been commander of the entire Imperial Military - one of the High Lords of Terra (C:UM 2e calls him this, but IA: BT (or possibly IF) calls him the 'de facto' head of the Imperial military). At minimum, he had been acting as commander of the Imperial military for years through the Scouring. He was certainly in a position to propose such an idea, and arguably in a position to enforce it. Considering the reaction to it appears to have been focused around the issue of splitting the legions, it seems reasonable to conclude that that was where most objection lay, rather than with the document as a whole. Furthermore, the compilation of the Codex seems to have been publicly known - Battlefleet Gothic fluff makes reference to Corax participating in debate over what the Codex should dictate for Space Marine fleets (he won the argument). Thus, while Guilliman did in some ways force the Codex upon the other Legions/Primarchs, they had had opportunity to participate in its formation and he was in a position of authority to do so.

Sounds good. Though neither this nor the previous answer points out that what was enforced were the dictates on Chapter regulations, but not the organisational/tactical/uniform guidelines.

 

 

Q: Why the hell was Guilliman in command after the Heresy? The Emperor appointed Dorn!

 

A: Foremost, the IA: BT notes how Dorn had been 'blinded to changing times'. He spent the Scouring chasing down Chaos forces and attempting to deal with the fact that the Emperor was dead. We do not know whether or not Guilliman tried to get Dorn to fulfill his responsibilities before taking action, but Dorn certainly does not seem to have stepped up. On a more practical note, Guilliman was alive (putting him ahead of a lot of other Primarchs) and had a relatively-intact legion (putting him ahead of everyone except Russ and Jonson (who was incapacitated shortly after). Who else was going to be in command? Guilliman was pretty much the only reasonable choice remaining.

Also sounds good, though I suspect that "he was the only reasonable choice" will not really satisfy a lot of people posing that question.

 

 

Q: Is the empire of Ultramar a violation of the Codex Astartes? (No, obviously. But support your answer.)

 

Problem is that looked at from a "spirit of the rules" perspective, it is. Leaving a Chapter with eight massively productive systems that can produce hundreds of Guard regiments and one of the Imperium's most productive shipyards is giving them a disproportionate amount of power and risking catastrophe should their commander betray the Imperium. The justification for it appears to be the fact that, well, Guilliman probably trusted the Ultramarines. Which is fine, and all. But it still looks shifty.

The Imperial Fists have a giant mobile Space Station. So do the Dark Angels, actually. The Space Wolves have the mightyest fortress next to the Imperial Palace on Terra. A lot of Chapters have a special gadget like that. The Ultramarines have a prosperous realm of multiple star systems. I would say the ship yards are probably the more questionable element, not so much the number of worlds. Aren't there other Chapters that command ship yards or forge worlds though? I assume there are. And most Chapters with a fixed base of operation will probably have closer relationships or ties to the worlds in the immediate vicinity. The Ultramarines are merely particularly involved in the affairs of those worlds in their area.

 

 

You could also throw in Pariah's space-fascists angle. Which is, y'know. Definitely characterful. They're not nearly as generic as their presentation.

Is that particularly "Ultramarine", though, or isn't that an element inherent to all Space Marines? It certainly is something one could bring up to argue that the Ultramarines are not so nice as some people might think, but perhaps it is not something that distinguishes them.

 

 

Q: Was Guilliman a jerk?

(...)

A: Pretty much, yeah. While he got along alright with some Primarchs under some circumstances, he had notable quarrels with Horus, Dorn and Alpharius - all of which involved him trying to tell them how to do things. He also compiled a giant book...which told everyone how to do things. Guilliman seems to have had a tendency to tell others how they could do things much better if they did them his way. Of course, considering that virtually from birth he'd been the greatest warrior and strategist his world had ever seen and that his character is based strongly upon the Emperor Augustus, this is not exactly an unreasonable characterization, and one very much in keep with the Greco-Roman themes of the Ultramarines. It's also important to bear in mind that the most common feature of the Primarchs after military greatness was an inability to tolerate each other.

I still contest that. Especially since Guilliman was "right" in the specific three instances mentioned above. Horus Abuses the Ultramarines and the Iron Warriors to further his own Legion's glory, to the detriment of the worlds he liberated. Guilliman "had words" with him about his approach, while Perturabo would later turn traitor because of these kind of things.

Guilliman and Alpharius have a heated debate about proper Astartes tactics, and later Alpharius would turn traitor just to prove the strength of his Legion.

Guilliman and Dorn have a dispute over the introduction of the Codex Astartes, but later Dorn relents and accepts it.

All of the above were instances of serious debates over how to do their job right, which as his legacy proves was something Guilliman cared about. When Horus is not doing a good job and just tries to grab more glory for himself on the backs of other Legions, Guilliman confronts him about it. When the Alpha Legion with their newly found Primarch appears to do sub par in terms of speed and employs questionable tactics, Guilliman suggests they adopt the Codex doctrines (which by this time would already have included a lot of the other Primarchs input, so were not just "his"). When Guilliman is tasked to reorganise the Imperial armed forces after the terrible tragedy of the Horus Heresy and Dorn does not want to conform with the new power limiting regulations, Guilliman does not back down and lets Dorn have it his way.

In all those instances Guilliman reacts as one might expect someone to react, without being of a paticularly unpleasant character.

[Brother Pariah]

@ Octavulg, great stuff! Thanks for taking the time to rewrite a bunch of that stuff.

 

As far as the line breaks go, I'll try to come up with some better formatting. Hopefully I'll have time to compile things at the top tomorrow some time.

[Octavulg]

The source at the end is intended for the convenience of inquisitive readers. But here you go:

 

"The Ultramarines Legion of Space Marines was assigned to the control of Roboute Guilliman and his forward base relocated to Macragge. The Primarch quickly assimilated the many wonders of the Imperium and set about his new role with skill and enthusiasm. Guilliman's chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and he led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south.

(...)

Fortress Macragge

Meanwhile, the fortress of the Ultramarines grew on Macragge. Some Ultramarines remained gehind to supervise the work, which progressed rapidly thanks to the trading network and advanced industries of the planet. Within a year a training base was established, and recruiting began on the planet Macragge and surrounding worlds. It was not long before the Ultramarines Legion received its first influx of warriors born and bred on Macragge. Thanks to the thoroughness of their organisation, the Ultramarines were able to receive constant recruits throughout the Great Crusade. because of their strong recruitment base and Roboute Guilliman's tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any other Legion."

- 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 13.

 

<incoherent muttering about Matt Ward>

 

Ahem.

 

I must point out that this appears to basically be a slight rewording of IA: UM, which made no mention of the reduced casualties, and that this would seem to be more fanboyism from our boy witht the ill-thought-out-opinions? And also, that it would also seem to be something of a recent development - i.e. that until very recently the answer to the question would have been "yes, the numbers helped a lot". Thus, I think you should err on the side of that answer. Nobody likes Matt Ward, and trying to deflect peoples dislike of the Ultramarines with his work is rather counter-productive.

 

Something along the lines of:

 

A: Yes, much of the Ultramarines' success during the Great Crusade does seem to have derived from their numbers. However, it should be noted that Guilliman seems to have achieved pronounced successes before troops new recruits started reaching him - clearly, the numbers are not the whole story. C:SM 5th edition also mentions that they took fewer casualties than other legions thanks to Guilliman's tactical acumen, which would help explain this.

 

I want to work in the "and what that MEANS is that he trained his troops somewhat harder and tried to teach them good solid tactical principles rather than just telling them what to do, because Matt Ward is a moron and that's the least insulting interpretation", but it's mostly speculation. :)

 

I think it is a sometimes voiced criticism of the Ultramarines that they did nothing during the Horus Heresy.

 

True. And they didn't do nothing. But they also didn't have much of an influence on events, either. No more than the DA or SW did. They weren't there for the big showdown. Not a problem, and what they were doing should be explained. But the whole "oh, they totally had an effect even from the other side of the galaxy" thing just isn't worth it. I mean, it's sort of true. But it just comes across as an attempt to make the Ultramarines important in one of the few areas of 40K fluff where they aren't really that prevalent.

 

Sounds good. Though neither this nor the previous answer points out that what was enforced were the dictates on Chapter regulations, but not the organisational/tactical/uniform guidelines.

 

We also don't point out the whole "and they were already doing it that way anyway thanks to fighting with the Ultramarines for decades in the Scouring".

 

Both of which kind of matter.

 

Also sounds good, though I suspect that "he was the only reasonable choice" will not really satisfy a lot of people posing that question.

 

Change it to "it was him or Russ." If that doesn't shut people up, nothing will.

 

The Imperial Fists have a giant mobile Space Station. So do the Dark Angels, actually. The Space Wolves have the mightyest fortress next to the Imperial Palace on Terra. A lot of Chapters have a special gadget like that. The Ultramarines have a prosperous realm of multiple star systems. I would say the ship yards are probably the more questionable element, not so much the number of worlds. Aren't there other Chapters that command ship yards or forge worlds though? I assume there are. And most Chapters with a fixed base of operation will probably have closer relationships or ties to the worlds in the immediate vicinity. The Ultramarines are merely particularly involved in the affairs of those worlds in their area.

 

The shipyard'd probably be alright without the eight worlds, and vice versa. The combination really does kinda push it a little farther than it should (though remember how nasty the Badab War got with so few worlds involved). The Raven Guard have Deliverance, and its planet, but that's it to my knowledge.

 

It's just really odd coming from Mr. "We must prevent another heresy! Especially you, Dorn!" What it actually is is just bad writing with no particular goal in mind. But that's not exactly a good answer. :)

 

Is that particularly "Ultramarine", though, or isn't that an element inherent to all Space Marines? It certainly is something one could bring up to argue that the Ultramarines are not so nice as some people might think, but perhaps it is not something that distinguishes them.

 

Just remind people that being the ideal Imperial world is not necessarily a compliment by modern standards, and that a population trained in military barracks is something utterly alien to modern society. Those touches always seem to flow right by people.

 

I still contest that. Especially since Guilliman was "right" in the specific three instances mentioned above. Horus Abuses the Ultramarines and the Iron Warriors to further his own Legion's glory, to the detriment of the worlds he liberated. Guilliman "had words" with him about his approach, while Perturabo would later turn traitor because of these kind of things.

Guilliman and Alpharius have a heated debate about proper Astartes tactics, and later Alpharius would turn traitor just to prove the strength of his Legion.

Guilliman and Dorn have a dispute over the introduction of the Codex Astartes, but later Dorn relents and accepts it.

 

Alpharius' treachery is primarily inspired by his close relationship with Horus, IMO. The showing off is just a bonus. I mean, he could have proved himself superior fighting the traitors, too. But he liked them better.

 

I think it's more consistent with his influences, background, and character. Besides, I did point out that everyone else was a jerk, too. :)

 

All of the above were instances of serious debates over how to do their job right, which as his legacy proves was something Guilliman cared about. When Horus is not doing a good job and just tries to grab more glory for himself on the backs of other Legions, Guilliman confronts him about it. When the Alpha Legion with their newly found Primarch appears to do sub par in terms of speed and employs questionable tactics, Guilliman suggests they adopt the Codex doctrines (which by this time would already have included a lot of the other Primarchs input, so were not just "his"). When Guilliman is tasked to reorganise the Imperial armed forces after the terrible tragedy of the Horus Heresy and Dorn does not want to conform with the new power limiting regulations, Guilliman does not back down and lets Dorn have it his way.

In all those instances Guilliman reacts as one might expect someone to react, without being of a paticularly unpleasant character.

 

The Codex in the AL bit is actually described as "his". The Codex is very much Guilliman's pet, for all that it draws on other Primarchs. And he calls Dorn a heretic... The thing is, what they all also share is that people aren't doing thing's Guilliman's way, and he gets upset. I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm just saying he's a jerk. You can be right and still be a jerk. I do it all the time. :P

 

Plus, like I said. Beats being boring. :)

 

* * *

 

EDIT:

I guess I'll save further advice/gross impertinence for when you've got the update done, Pariah.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

You all missed one, however.

 

Q: Was Guilliman a jerk?

 

A: Indubitably. Of course

Whats your source? :P

[Vash113]

First off might I suggest changing the title to say "Ultramarines Fluff FAQ" so its not confused with a rules FAQ?

 

Next a couple points:

 

Q. Why weren't the Ultramarines at the Battle of Terra during the Horus Heresy?

 

With regards to what the Ultramarines were doing during the Horus Heresy, I would agree with Octavulg that trying to shoehorn in with the Siege of Terra comes off badly. On the contrary I think the answer should focus more on the Word Bearers attack on Calth and the Ultramarines involvement during the Scouring.

 

For to be honest, it was the Space Wolves and Dark Angels imminent arrival that forced Horus' hand and brought about the assault on his Flagship by the Emperor, Dorn and Sanguinius, the Ultramarines came late to the party. However it can be said that their belated arrival was not such a bad thing, all the other Legions had been badly mauled, the Ultramarines had come through the Horus Heresy relatively unscathed and were thus in a position to pick up the pieces while the other Legions went about trying to piece themselves back together. There were pros and cons to the Ultramarines absence from the Siege of Terra and thats what I think should be brought across in that Q&A.

 

Q. Cannot the success of the Ultramarines Legion during the Great Crusade be attributed entirely to the Legion's enormeous size?

 

To be entirely fair I haven't seen anything that convinces me the Ultramarines success wasn't because of their size. But this is another situation where being overly defensive is probably a bad thing. I have to say that I think the Ultramarines size did likely contribute significantly to their success, 20,000 Marines are deffinitely going to take a world easier than 10,000 and even if they brought only 10,000 that just leaves the other 10,000 to take another world at the same time. However you look at it More Marines = More Victories. But is that a bad thing? The Ultramarines numbers were because of the productivity and prosperity of Macragge and the realm of Ultramar in general. The prowess of Guilliman resulted in the largest Pre-Heresy Legion and that's no mean feat. So for an answer I'd suggest something along the lines of:

 

The larger size of the Ultramarines certainly played some role in their success during the Great Crusade, how much of the Legions success was down to size and how much to the Tactical acumen of Guilliman is uncertain. Nevertheless the Ultramarines size was a result of Guilliman's genius in the structure and efficiency of Ultramar, one way or another the success of the Ultramarines can be attributed to the skill and leadership of Roboute Guilliman.

 

Q: Did Guilliman force his Codex Astartes upon the other Legions and Primarchs?

 

On the subject, the breakup of the Legions was undoubtedly the point of greatest contention but the structure and tenets laid down in the Codex likely caused problems as well. It should also be noted that while Dorn finally relented, it is theorised that the Iron Cage incident was Dorn's way of giving his Marines an honorable death knowing that many would not have accepted the breakup of the Legion or being parted from their Primarch and Commander and Dorn only relented after the Strike Cruiser The Terrible Angel was fired upon. Dorn's acceptance of the Codex was almost literally at gun point and the result was the loss of many of the Imperial Fists who had survived the Siege of Terra. In a way Guilliman's determination to force the Codex on the Legions saw the Imperial Fists Legion decimated and could have caused another rebellion.

 

Another point is that the Space Wolves never accepted the Codex Astartes and owe nothing to it at all. The only possible support for even the most tenuous of acceptance for the Codex are the Wolf Brothers successor, but that appears to have been more of a test and partial attempt to get Guilliman off Russ' back than it was a serious attempt to accept the Codex and of course it failed miserably.

 

Both of those are aspects that should be adressed in that question and if they aren't in at least a neutral way than the Question won't really have done any good. I'd suggest the following or something like it:

 

Yes and no, following the Horus Heresy Guilliman commanded the most Astartes and during the Scouring became somewhat of a de-facto leader for the Imperium's armed forces. This did put Guilliman in a position to force the Codex Astartes on the other Legions and despite fervent opposition to the Codex most Primarchs eventually gave in, though Rogal Dorn only did so when the Strike Cruiser The Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy for the Imperial Fists heresies. It is even theorised that Dorn's assault on Perturabo and his Iron Warriors during the "Iron Cage" incident may have been an attempt to whittle down his Legion to make possible a split into Chapter strength units. The only Legion that never really accepted the Codex and its dictates were Leman Russ' Space Wolves. The only attempted concession to Guilliman and the Codex was the foundation of the ill-fated Wolf Brothers successor Chapter. After the Wolf Brothers destruction no more attempts were made to split the Space Wolves and it appears likely that Russ never intended to split up his Legion to be conquered piecemeal, to this day the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex and hold it in little regard, this is in part perhaps because not even Guilliman envied attempting to lay siege to the Fang in order to bring Russ into compliance with the Codex. Despite the knifes edge on which another civil war rested, Guilliman did eventually force Dorn to relent but Guilliman did not go so far as to start a conflict with Russ.

 

Nevertheless the aim of the Codex was successfull and while forcefull in his assertion that the Legions would be broken up, Guilliman did not start another civil war, whether Dorn and the Imperial Fists suffered because of this is conjecture but no one man in the Imperium would ever command the might of an entire Astartes Legion again.

 

Anyway point being that from a neutral perspective, yea Guilliman basically made Dorn relent at gunpoint, whether the shots fired at the Terrible Angel were on his orders or not, but Guilliman didn't press the issue with Russ which would likely have caused another civil war, in short he went pretty far but not as far as he could have gone.

 

Q: Why the hell was Guilliman in command after the Heresy? The Emperor appointed Dorn!

 

Finally with regards to why Guilliman was in command it should be more fully explained in the answer to the question. The White Scars, Blood Angels and Imperial Fists had all taken a sound thrashing at the Siege of Terra, despite their exemplary performance they were still badly outnumbered and the cassualties were significant and of course Sanguinius was dead. The Raven Guard and Salamanders were nearly annihilated and the Iron Hands had lost pretty much all of their Veterans and Ferrus Manus was dead. The Space Wolves had seen very hard fighting on Prospero and Russ was hardly a politician, while the Dark Angels ripped each other to pieces in the battle for Caliban that saw Johnson mortally wounded and dissapeared. 3 Primarchs were dead/gone, and the other 5 had massively under-strength Legions, Guilliman was the only Primarch remaining with a largely intact Legion and had not already been put through the grinder of hellish combat against his former brothers in arms, given the circumstances none of the others could or would have taken charge and that left Guilliman. He does seem to have used the power as he sought best, not with the consultation or agreement of his brothers, and not with much (if any) official sanction, still someone had to do it.

[Brother Pariah]

@Vash113: I can't really agree with your statements re: the Space Wolves, Vash. The Space Wolves Legion was split up, and they adopted the gene implantation techniques described in the Codex Astartes. While the Space Wolves rejected the bulk of the organizational and tactical doctrine of the Codex Astartes (aside from Russ's own contributions to the Codex, presumably) the really important stuff (preventing a howling mob of Mutant Chaos Werewolves from starting a civil war) was duly prevented.

 

@Octavulg: Yes, of course Ultramar looks bad. That's why it's in the FAQ. Simple logic, and a reading of various 40K texts stretching back for two decades, should prove that Ultramar is NOT a violation of the Codex:

The Ultramarines have always followed the Codex Astartes.

The Ultramarines have always controlled the Realm of Ultramar.

Therefor: Controlling the Realm of Ultramar is not a violation of the Codex Astartes.

 

While the Realm of Ultrmar might appear to be a similar problem to the Tyrannic War Vets / Seditio Opprimere problem, the relatively recentness of the Tyrannic Wars makes those two items far more suspect, in my eyes.

 

The Badab War was bad, to be sure, but it does not even remotely compare to the scope of the Horus Heresy. Probably the closest thing would be Vandire's Reign of Blood, which had very little to do with the Adeptus Astartes at all.

[Legatus]

<incoherent muttering about Matt Ward>

 

Ahem.

 

I must point out that this appears to basically be a slight rewording of IA: UM, which made no mention of the reduced casualties, and that this would seem to be more fanboyism from our boy witht the ill-thought-out-opinions?

I had provided the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines source as well, as the 5th Edition text is almost a verbatim copy of that, but decided to quote the 5th Edition Codex as the more recent source. This is from the Codex Ultramarines:

 

"FORTRESS MACRAGGE

The Ultramarines Legion of Space Marines was assigned to the control of Roboute Guilliman and it's forward base relocated to Macragge. The Primarch quickly assimilated the many wonders of the Imperium and set about his new role with skill and enthusiasm. His chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and he soon led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south.

(...)

Meainwhile, the fortress of the Ultramarines grew on Macragge. Some Ultramarines remained behind to supervise the work, which progressed rapidly thanks to the ready trading network and advanced industries of the planet. Within a year a training base was established and recruiting began on Macragge and surrounding worlds. It was not long before the Ultramarines Legion received its first influx of warriors born and bred on Macragge. Thanks to their usual thoroughness of organisation, the Ultramarines were able to receive constant recruits throughout the Great Crusade. Because of its strong recruitment base and Roboute Guilliman's tactical expertise the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits than any other Legion and suffering fewer casualties."

- 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, page 12.

 

It is exactly as the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines text except for the underlined words:

 

(2nd to 5th)

 

"His cheif talents..." --> "Guilliman's chief talents..."

 

"thanks to the ready trading network..." --> "thanks to the trading network..."

 

"Thanks to their usual thoroughness..." --> "Thanks to the thoroughness of their..."

 

"Because of its strong recruitment base..." --> "Because of their strong recruitment base..."

 

"...having more recruits than any other Legion and suffering fewer casualties." --> "...having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any other Legion."

 

One slightly bigger change is that in teh 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines the heading "Fortress Macragge" comes before the paragraph about how Guilliman was put in command of the Ultramarines and the parapraph (which I cut) about how he went about conquering worlds and establishing governments and defenses, followed by the third paragraph about the recruitment. In the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines the first two paragraphs are still under the heading "The Emperor reaches Macragge", while the heading "Fortress Macragge" now was put before thw third paragraph. I included that change in my citations here.

 

The biggest change of all is that in the second paragraph about Guilliman's way of conquering worlds, the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines specifically included this concluding statement:

 

"In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion."

 

That statement came before the paragraph that explained how the Ultramarines arranged recruitmenet and reinforcements and how they soon became the largest Legion, so it seems they were already faster in conquering worlds when they were still a normal sized Legion. But that was cut from the 5th Edition text, so actually the 5th Edition contains a tiny bit less praise for the Ultramarines in this regard.

 

 

I think it is a sometimes voiced criticism of the Ultramarines that they did nothing during the Horus Heresy.

True. And they didn't do nothing. But they also didn't have much of an influence on events, either. No more than the DA or SW did. They weren't there for the big showdown. Not a problem, and what they were doing should be explained. But the whole "oh, they totally had an effect even from the other side of the galaxy" thing just isn't worth it. I mean, it's sort of true. But it just comes across as an attempt to make the Ultramarines important in one of the few areas of 40K fluff where they aren't really that prevalent.

I had hoped that with "...so while not present at Terra directly, the Ultramarines did have at least some bearing on the events." I had employed the neccessary amount of modesty, but if two of the more outspoken critics of the Ultramarines Legion think it looks unfavourable then I guess it is no good as it is. Would adding "...be it only in a minor and more indirectly supporting role." make it any better?

[Octavulg]

Pariah:

@Octavulg: Yes, of course Ultramar looks bad. That's why it's in the FAQ. Simple logic, and a reading of various 40K texts stretching back for two decades, should prove that Ultramar is NOT a violation of the Codex:

The Ultramarines have always followed the Codex Astartes.

The Ultramarines have always controlled the Realm of Ultramar.

Therefor: Controlling the Realm of Ultramar is not a violation of the Codex Astartes.

 

While the Realm of Ultrmar might appear to be a similar problem to the Tyrannic War Vets / Seditio Opprimere problem, the relatively recentness of the Tyrannic Wars makes those two items far more suspect, in my eyes.

 

The Badab War was bad, to be sure, but it does not even remotely compare to the scope of the Horus Heresy. Probably the closest thing would be Vandire's Reign of Blood, which had very little to do with the Adeptus Astartes at all.

 

True, but I think the "it's approved by the Codex because they follow it" thing is so logically obvious no one will make the argument. My own objection lies in the fact that it's so hypocritical to break up the legions because of concentration of power and keep your empire of eight planets, complete with shipyard and swarms of troopers. In short, it's what it looks like that the people with brain cells are objecting to, and I honestly don't think I've ever seen the other objection.

 

Also the Badab War is ostensibly the most-dangerous-to-Imperial-authority conflict since the Horus Heresy. And you a Rogue Trader man, too... :lol:

 

When you get a chance, don't forget to recompile all the current questions in the first thread so I (and others) can have another go at them.

 

* * *

Legatus:

 

That statement came before the paragraph that explained how the Ultramarines arranged recruitmenet and reinforcements and how they soon became the largest Legion, so it seems they were already faster in conquering worlds when they were still a normal sized Legion. But that was cut from the 5th Edition text, so actually the 5th Edition contains a tiny bit less praise for the Ultramarines in this regard.

 

Oy vey. Alright. I still think it has more to do with the planets than with the tactics.

 

I had hoped that with "...so while not present at Terra directly, the Ultramarines did have at least some bearing on the events." I had employed the neccessary amount of modesty, but if two of the more outspoken critics of the Ultramarines Legion think it looks unfavourable then I guess it is no good as it is. Would adding "...be it only in a minor and more indirectly supporting role." make it any better?

 

Just leave it out. It's easier. Also, Vash plays Ultramarines. And I'm a critic of everything. ;)

 

If this FAQ is supposed to deal with people's irrational criticisms of Ultramarines, it needs to be as neutral and carefully non-confrontational as is reasonably possible, so people will actually pay attention to it. Bald presentation of fact, with little or no aggrandizement. Willingly giving people a few faults to crow about would hardly hurt either - I seriously recommend the "Guilliman is a jerk" thing. Which can also be used to explain the dubious nature of the Realm of Ultramar. ;)

[Gree]

I think that there may be something else about Ultramar in the 5th edition Codex.

 

Pg. 52 in the Chapter Master entry has Masters ruling ''entire worlds, systems and sub-sectors in the Emperor's name''

 

This implies that other Codex chapters rule large areas of space like the Ultramarines.

[Brother Pariah]

Okay, I've made a start with the top post. The "spoilered" bits haven't been edited down yet.

[Vash113]

@Vash113: I can't really agree with your statements re: the Space Wolves, Vash. The Space Wolves Legion was split up, and they adopted the gene implantation techniques described in the Codex Astartes. While the Space Wolves rejected the bulk of the organizational and tactical doctrine of the Codex Astartes (aside from Russ's own contributions to the Codex, presumably) the really important stuff (preventing a howling mob of Mutant Chaos Werewolves from starting a civil war) was duly prevented.

 

And this is a problem with the FAQ if it's to be of any use, its a common misconception among Ultramarines players with regards to the Space Wolves but no, the Space Wolves are not described as ever having changed their recruitment methods or accepted any of the tenets of the Codex in any way, in fact much of what I wrote was worded according to what the Codexies say on the matter. I'll quote some of the relevant material:

 

Codex: Space Marines page 7

Though many of his brother Primarchs initially railed against Guillimans decree, almost all eventually accepted the necessity of the Codex.

 

Codex: Space Marines page 9

A small number of Chapters are utterly different from the Codex, and owe nothing to it at all. The most famous of these wild Chapters is the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves have never followed the Codex Astartes - their strong willed Primarch moulded his Chapter very much in his own image, irrespective of other influences and doctrines.

 

Codex: Space Marines page 24

Others, such as the Space Wolves and Black TEmplars, remain stubbornly independant, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others.

 

Codex: Space Wolves page 9

The Space Wolves were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognised the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen. Perhaps Leman Russ had no intention of breaking apart his mighty Legion so that they could be divided and conquered if necessary. What is known, however, is that the Space Wolves had and still have little regard for the dictates and military tradition of the Codex Astartes, instead holding sacred the teachings of Russ that are handed down from Wolf Priest to Blood CLaw whelp even to this day.

 

Wherever you look there's nothing stating the Leman Russ and the Space Wolves ever actualy accepted the Codex or any of its decrees. Even the splitting the Wolf Brothers off from the Legion is strongly suggested to have been merely a ploy by Russ to appear to accede to the High Lords slightly while at the same time proving that splitting apart the Space Wolves was a very bad idea. All told the Space Wolves have never accepted either the Codex's military and organisational doctrine, or any of its other decrees including training and splitting of the Legions. While no longer a Legion this merely appears to be the result of the Space Wolves reducing their size over time and not the result of an actual acceptance of Codex doctrine.

 

Trying to say that because of Guilliman a "howling mob of Mutant Chaos Werewolves" was prevented is exactly the sort of thing that will undermine any potential this FAQ might have. The Codex material doesn't support it, any claims that the Space Wolves even marginally accepted the Codex are very shaky and to place them as fact shows a bias towards the Ultramarines interpretation that will discredit this FAQ for any SW reader faster than you can say "fanboy."

 

To be fair you can argue it either way, some material does state "all Legions split" and other similar bits and bobs can be found here and there, and theres more to support the other side as well. Overall its who you ask that seems to make the deciding difference, to the Space Wolves there's no doubt that Leman Russ tossed the Codex out the window from day one, while clearly you as an Ultramarine player think that the Space Wolves must have accepted at least the two most important decrees of the Codex even if they didn't accept the Tactical Doctrine. The issue is a conflicting one for me obviously but I have to admit that in my opinion the Space Wolf arguments do have far more credence and it fits with their character far more, the fluff never says the Space Wolves accepted the Codex and I don't see Leman Russ giving in on anything... what so ever, the mere existence of the Wolf Brothers successor shows more cunning and possibly more compromise than I would have ever considered likely from the Character and even that is pushing it greatly. Nevertheless the fluff is not consistently one way or the other and to make the FAQ more credible I would suggest the more "SW friendly" perspective should be included instead of the Ultramarines one.

 

Consider it "giving people a few faults to crow about" as Octavulg puts it. Trust a Librarian/Rune Priest on this. ;)

 

Just leave it out. It's easier. Also, Vash plays Ultramarines. And I'm a critic of everything. ;)

 

Indeed, as I said before it would do far better to be modest and simply say: "yea ok we were late to the party but hey we cleaned up the mess!" Which is inarguably true and somewhat self-depricating and likely to go over far better with critical readers. And yes I do play Ultramarines and they're currently my largest army too, I even have pictures to prove it for the disbelievers! ;)

 

... just gotta get another 9 Assault Marines to finish up the battle company... I'll get to it... someday... ;)

 

I think that there may be something else about Ultramar in the 5th edition Codex.

 

Pg. 52 in the Chapter Master entry has Masters ruling ''entire worlds, systems and sub-sectors in the Emperor's name''

 

This implies that other Codex chapters rule large areas of space like the Ultramarines.

 

It doesn't have to imply, its true. The White Consuls in Dark Creed are described at length and they too control a large area of space and multiple planets and systems. They even have appointed marine Governors and assistent governors called Proconsuls and Coadjutors if I recall correctly, or something like that. The Space Wolves have more recently been described as patrolling and protecting the systems around them and considering them part of Chapter space, the Iron Snakes in Brothers of the Snake have binding oaths of protection and allegiance with many planets in their designated area of space outside their homeworld.

 

Also I'm having trouble remembering where its said but part of the "Time of Ending" material is that many Astartes Chapters are taking more direct control of planets and systems in their viscinity and creating small empires much like Ultramar and that this trend could signify a significant rise in the political power of the Astartes.

 

Nevertheless the "but they're doing it too!" argument never really works. It would probably be better to say "yes its a bit suspect that the Ultramarines kept control of an eight system empire complete with military facilities and highly productive shipyards, but at the time I suppose nobody was going to deny Guilliman that concession and it doesn't appear to have been a problem since."

 

Otherwise you could wind up in a chicken-and-the-egg sort of problem.

[Marshal Rohr]

Thats what I have been saying, the FAQ cannot be defensive or it will just be ignored. It needs to explain and concede. Thats how you win arguments! ;)

[Brother Pariah]

Wherever you look there's nothing stating the Leman Russ and the Space Wolves ever actualy accepted the Codex or any of its decrees. ...

 

Trying to say that because of Guilliman a "howling mob of Mutant Chaos Werewolves" was prevented is exactly the sort of thing that will undermine any potential this FAQ might have. The Codex material doesn't support it, any claims that the Space Wolves even marginally accepted the Codex are very shaky and to place them as fact shows a bias towards the Ultramarines interpretation that will discredit this FAQ for any SW reader faster than you can say "fanboy."

I don't remember how we got on the Space Wolves. I don't see how they factor into this FAQ, anyway. All I did was point out that the Space Wolves split their Legion (as per the Codex) and adopted the gene implantation techniques (slow introduction of organs over a period of years, beginning in the initiate's adolescence) described in the Codex.

 

Nevertheless the "but they're doing it too!" argument never really works. It would probably be better to say "yes its a bit suspect that the Ultramarines kept control of an eight system empire complete with military facilities and highly productive shipyards, but at the time I suppose nobody was going to deny Guilliman that concession and it doesn't appear to have been a problem since."

 

Otherwise you could wind up in a chicken-and-the-egg sort of problem.

Take a look at the top post. What do you think of my solution?

[Grey Mage]

*Blinks* Brother Pariah, could you give me a source for how the SWs have changed their implantation techniques? As far as I can tell they havent changed a thing since the heresy.

 

And the answer to the first question really does come off as overly defensive....

[Legatus]

According to the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves the Legion was specifically only divided once because it had never been a very large Legion. The newer fluff is presented as a bit more ambiguous (just like the big secret in the current Codex Dark Angels, whereas the 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death plainly stated that it was that Jonsons body was being kept hidden deep inside the rock), but unless it is officially retconned by a specific statement that the Space Wolves remained at Legion strength, only splitting off one Chapter worth of members, but still refering to themselves as a "Chapter" now instead of a "Legion" (despite still using a basically unchanged formation), I will continue to believe that I do know, from older sources, that the Space Wolves Legion was indeed divided into two Chapters.

 

The 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves is not the only source. The 3rd Edition Index Astartes about the Codex Astartes also specifically explains that the Space Wolves were divided into two Chapters.

 

"The existing Space Marine Legions were divided into new Chapters, one Chapter keeping the name and colours of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two), but the Ultramarines were divided many times."

3rd Edition, Index Astartes I, page 13.

 

Adding to that the background given in the Index Astartes IF, CF and BT about the violent prosecution of Dorn when he did not want to divide his Legion and it begs the question why Dorn was not being allowed to keep his Legion but Russ supposedly was.

 

 

Edit:

And the answer to the first question really does come off as overly defensive....

If the question is why the Ultramarines did not participate in the Battle for Terra, or if they did anything in the Heresy at all, which are issues that critics do bring up, then the answer will inevitably consist of an explanation why they were not at the Battle for Terra or what they did during the Heresy. I am not sure that can be explained without it sounding "defensive".

"They could not be there because...", "They did at least...", sounds like excuses allright. But these are the answers to the questions.

[Vash113]

I don't remember how we got on the Space Wolves. I don't see how they factor into this FAQ, anyway. All I did was point out that the Space Wolves split their Legion (as per the Codex) and adopted the gene implantation techniques (slow introduction of organs over a period of years, beginning in the initiate's adolescence) described in the Codex.

 

Except that's not entirely correct, the Space Wolves did not split their Legion as according to the Codex, they broke off one small group as a "test" and it failed and no further attempt to split the Legion was made. A failed "pilot program" so to speak doesn't mean an official breakup actually occured. Compared to the other Legions the Space Wolves never really broke down, there's also no real indication that the Space Wolves accepted or adopted the altered gene implantation techniques, the Space Wolves recruitment, implantation and training proceedures haven't changed according to the fluff since the days of the Great Cruasde. So that statement really isn't supported by the background.

 

How we got onto it is the subject of the Codex and whether Guilliman forced it on the other Primarchs and in this way insisting that the Space Wolves did accept the Codexies tenets is just shooting the Ultramarines in the foot. It is the single example of Guilliman acceding to one of the other Legions and not forcing the Codex on them. Dorn was declared a heretic and almost attacked for it starting a civil war, but at least Guilliman wasn't so foolhardy or obstinate to openly attack a brother Legion to get them to do it his way.

 

Admitting that "no, Leman Russ did not accept the Codex and its decrees" reinforces that Guilliman did not totally force the Codex on the other Legions. It helps the Ultramarines case, and should not be ignored. Likewise it makes the situation exponentially worse, particularly to Space Wolf readers, to try and say the Space Wolves did break up and adopt Guillimans decrees. It just isn't really supported by the fluff, while it could be argued either way, IMO the weight of evidence is against such a statement. When the Ultramarines make it, particularly with regards to the purpose of this FAQ, it just undermines any credibility or sense of neutrality you hope to achieve.

 

I've debated this point many times before and if you want readers, especially Space Wolf readers, to take these questions and answers seriously they can't be from an Ultramarines perspective, which your above statement most deffinitely is. Others heavily disagree and you don't want what are supposed to be neutral answers to common questions to be points of contention, particularly when its heated contention that you're trying to avoid. :D

 

Take a look at the top post. What do you think of my solution?

 

I'm not sure, it still comes off with a bit too much "of course we're not breaking the Codex, we're Ultramarines!" attitude and I'm not sure I buy the whole I-think-therefore-I-am type argument. We're-Codex-therefore-our-empire-is-codex-too thing is understandable but I'm not sure its an answer critics will accept. There isn't going to be a spotless answer to every question, but here's what I think could be said, in part or in whole:

 

"In truth until relatively recently in the fluff the realm of Ultramar was unprecedented, no others had such a realm and nothing in the Codex allowed or disallowed its existence.

 

It does not appear to actually break any of the Codex's known conventions but could certainly have been abused and may be seen as opposed to the spirit of Guillimans decrees to split the Imperiums armed forces and prevent any one man from commanding too mighty a force. The Ultramarines have all the necessary tools to churn out an army and fleet of vast size in a relatively short ammount of time. However given Guillimans actions in holding the Imperium together during the Scouring and the fact that while he could have easily taken over rule of the Imperium, he didn't the High Lords may have deemed the unorthodox realm of the Ultramarines an acceptable concession to those who had fought so hard to keep the Imperium together.

 

Another possible explenation is that none of the worlds of Ultramar were that effective or efficient on their own except for perhaps Macragge and relied on each other, splitting them up amongst Successor Chapters would have drastically reduced their capabilities and therefore weakened one of the Imperiums greatest bullwarks on the Eastern Rim of the galaxy.

 

A third possible explenation is that even should the worlds have been split up and given to successor Chapters, their ties of mutual support, communication and trade may have been percieved as Guilliman simply attempting to keep a portion of his Legion close together, the various successor Chapters being almost unable to avoid supporting each other, therefore to make it clear Guilliman was not keeping oversight of his successors it was deemed necessary to send them further afield and leave Ultramar be. Nevertheless the Codex doesn't really have much to say on the subject and its not clear whether the realm of Ultramar is somewhat against the Codex's conventions and if so by how much.

 

What is known is that other Astartes Chapters have begun to create empires of their own through trade, political support or military alliance, and while this growing trend is a somewhat worrisome increase in the relative power and influence of the Adeptus Astartes, the action does not appear to be in major contention with the Codex or the Astartes perview to cause the High Lords to take action against such expansions of influence."

 

Any or all of those explenations would be more neutral and reasonable and less likely to appear biased than the current answer to the question.

 

All told you don't want people to read this FAQ and then go: "of course they'd say that, they're Ultramarines," on the contrary the answers in the FAQ should be written in a way that they are not self-agrandising or biased and don't try to always reflect positively on the Ultramarines. If the answers are too self-agrandising then it undermines the credibility of the answers and defeats the purpose of the FAQ.

 

As Marshal2 Crusaders said, the answers can't be defensive in nature. Neutral explenations and even a few self-depricating concessions will work far better than the expected defensive arguments we've all seen time and time again.

 

Adding to that the background given in the Index Astartes IF, CF and BT about the violent prosecution of Dorn when he did not want to divide his Legion and it begs the question why Dorn was not being allowed to keep his Legion but Russ supposedly was.

 

The entire subject is a grey area, depending on who you ask the answer will be different. I would contend that the answer is... complicated. Dorn and his Legion were technically the Emperor's Praetorians, of all the surviving Primarchs only Dorn could legitimately make a claim against Guillimans influence and authority and thus it was imperative that Dorn accept the Codex and make sure the matter of authority and influence was settled.

 

However with regard to the Space Wolves it could be argued that letting Russ be had a long term effect of mitigating the influence of the Space Wolves and divergent Chapters like them. For instance take a look at this little piece of fluff from page 24 of C:SM:

 

These abberant Chapters (SW & BT) were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters.

 

Perhaps Guilliman realised Russ was too stubborn and the Space Wolves would never follow the Codex and its dictates and fight like the other Legions/Chapters and so by letting them be and keeping them to Fenris Guilliman was able to minimise the impact of divergent Chapters and over time the Codex Chapters and the Ultramarines successors in particular have come to vastly outnumber the divergent Chapters.

 

In short, rather than force the issue with a civil war Guilliman took the long road.

 

Edit:

And the answer to the first question really does come off as overly defensive....

If the question is why the Ultramarines did not participate in the Battle for Terra, or if they did anything in the Heresy at all, which are issues that critics do bring up, then the answer will inevitably consist of an explanation why they were not at the Battle for Terra or what they did during the Heresy. I am not sure that can be explained without it sounding "defensive".

"They could not be there because...", "They did at least...", sounds like excuses allright. But these are the answers to the questions.

 

It all depends on how its written. If its written as: "well they didn't quite get to Terra in time but still had an impact" then it comes off as defensive and biased, but if its written as: "the Ultramarines weren't able to get to Terra in time its true and did not participate in much of the heaviest fighting of the Heresy. The Ultramarines were far from the fighting at the time and through distance, the tides of the warp and the intervention of the Word Bearers were unable to reach Terra in time to influence the outcome of the events. However this also meant that the Ultramarines had suffered the fewest cassualties of the loyalist Legions and were in an ideal position to hold the Imperium together during the time known as "The Scouring" that directly followed the defeat of Horus." Its true and while it admits the Ultramarines didn't get to Terra its not all bad and points out how they were able to do some good.

 

The important thing in the end is the manner in which the answer is written so that it doesn't try to twist, stretch, or color events to the Ultramarines favor but simply states what happened in as neutral and unbiased a way as possible. Sure some people will always see it as defensive but you can never please everyone, and even trying will just drive you crazy.