Ultramarines FAQ

[Brother Pariah]

Is "why are there so many Ultramarines models?" really a Question that is Frequently Asked, though?

 

Also, in answer to Brother-Captain Alecto's query, I see no reason to limit our FAQ to questions regarding the background material only. If there are frequently asked questions on other subjects, we could certainly include them in the FAQ.

 

As far as the Black Templars go, I see no reason not to call them part of the "Big Five." They have their own Codex. They're quite popular. I've never seen a BT army, but that doesn't mean much. I imagine that they're about as popular as the Ultramarines.

[Marshal Rohr]

Must. Resist....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:P

[Walter Payton]

Oh, uoh, I know the answer: "They don't!" ;)

 

Exactly :D But people still whinge.

 

I was assuming (considering recent events on this sub-forum) that this was more a 'rapid-rebuttal' Ultra-bashing thread-i.e:

 

Twerp: Ultras are all vanilla

 

Ultras player: May I direct you to linky

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I think it is now approapriate for it to be the Big 5. Not trying to kick sand in your face but I think it is apparent that BT are more popular than UM.

BT ushered in the best Land Raider, have there own Codex and models.

UM don't.

I can't even name a Black Templar player I know IRL, while I can name at least one other Ultramarine player. The best Land Raider is the Prometheus, and the current edition of Codex:Ultramarines just has some guest stars. Black Templar barely have more models (3 more if you're counting super strictly, otherwise there's more Ultramarines).

And see TEC I have the opposite problem... Ive seen one Ultras player in the last 2 years, but I know three Templars players, though one of them hasnt seen the light of day in almost a year.

 

It's about equal for me. I wish I knew more Ultra players but I know just as many BT's as UM's.

 

One thing I noticed is that the BT players generally have more armys under their belt. My Ultra guys strictly collect ultras

[The Emperor's Champion]

So then the BT guys you know might not actually be BT guys per se, but rather "Flavor Of The Month" guys?

[Octavulg]

And the UM players may not be UM players per se, but just too focused on being "the bestest of the bestest" to play any other army. :D

 

It might be, but it doesn't mean it is.

 

Why am I the only one on topic? This isn't right. The world is upside down.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

So then the BT guys you know might not actually be BT guys per se, but rather "Flavor Of The Month" guys?

lol I wish I'd tease them to no end, but no its not that easy I wouldn't call them bandwagoners because if they were they'd be collecting a BA army now! ;) :P

[Legatus]

And the UM players may not be UM players per se, but just too focused on being "the bestest of the bestest" to play any other army. rolleyes.gif

At least they went by fluff, and not with the "best rules".

[Grey Mage]

Yeah... becaus about a year ago the SM codex certainly wasnt the newest, shiniest rules out there eh?

[Octavulg]

At least they went by fluff, and not with the "best rules".

 

...Because being a two-dimensional twit who can't handle not playing the best army around fluffwise would somehow be better than being a two-dimensional twit who can't handle not playing the best army around gamewise? :huh:

 

Trying to play psychologist from a brief overview of what armies people play is rather pointless. Which is what my initial example was supposed to point out. Since you've missed it, I will be clearer: all that collecting more than one army means is that you collect more than one army. All that collecting one army means is that you collect one army.

 

In any case, this has precisely nothing to do with the issue of Ultramarine FAQs, and I suspect Pariah can work that out if I can. Why don't you all try talking about the proposed FAQ questions/answers? I enjoyed it when I was doing it. :D

[Ktan]

Guys, I'm interested in seeing this thread develop, not a slanging match that started because some people have seen some more UM than BT armies, and vice-versa.

 

Like Octavulg, I'd like to appeal for us to drop these shenanigans and get on with some FAQ'ing =)

[Ultra1k]

Ok, I'm going to throw this one out. Might be slightly off what we're looking for, but I thought it might clarify the issue for other players.

 

Q: What exactly is the Codex Astartes??

[Octavulg]

I'll quote myself, then:

 

"What is the Codex Astartes?

The Codex is not the Codex: Space Marines. It's the tactical work assembled by Roboute Guilleman from the finest military minds of the era and expanded upon by a long, long list of others. It covers everything from assaults to camouflage to tactics to entrenchment - everything a superhuman military commander could think of. It is a weighty tome, and confusing it with the book you read the statistics for your marines out of is a big mistake. It is, quite literally, the Space Marine holy tome - and keeping that comparison in mind will probably help.

 

The Space Marines, generally, have no gods - they have warfare. And the Codex Astartes is the holy text of their religion. Of course, the Codex can be interpreted differently by chapters, either from looking at it from a different point of view or just a practical need to go against what it says.

 

Everything about a Space Marine chapter relies on the Codex Astartes. From their creation to their training to how they conduct their day, the Codex has something to say on the subject. The Codex has been with the Space Marines from their very inception - it's the founding structure for how Space Marine chapters are organized, administered and commanded. At the Second Founding, only two Chapters that we know of were not considered Codex-adherent - the Space Wolves and the Black Templars. This shows us that, from the start, Space Marine chapters were codex-adherent. And many people don’t seem to realise what this would mean about their own chapter’s views on the Codex."

 

From the Octaguide. Originally from an essay I wrote on the Liber moons and moons ago. Never throw things out, kids.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I'll quote myself, then:

 

"What is the Codex Astartes?

The Codex is not the Codex: Space Marines. It's the tactical work assembled by Roboute Guilleman from the finest military minds of the era and expanded upon by a long, long list of others. It covers everything from assaults to camouflage to tactics to entrenchment - everything a superhuman military commander could think of. It is a weighty tome, and confusing it with the book you read the statistics for your marines out of is a big mistake. It is, quite literally, the Space Marine holy tome - and keeping that comparison in mind will probably help.

And by "holy tome" you mean "encyclopedia set of holy tomes".

[Legatus]

Very nice treatise there. I would like to suggest that the laws and regulations should be mentioned specifically too, though. Depending on the topic where the Codex is mentioned, it can often either be meant to specifically refer to the set of rules that a Space Marine Chapter has to abide by, or it refers specifically to the massive guide on warfare.

 

For example, IIRC it is the Codex Space Woves (cannot check right now) where it is described that after the events of the heresy new regulations for Space Marine formations had to be established, and that those ruled were called the "Codex Astartes". On the other hand, when a text mentions "Codex Chapters" it means how closely a Chapter follows the tactical doctrines and organisation of the Codex Astartes, and sources describe how Guilliman was already working on his "Codex" before the Heresy.

 

They are two parts, one Guilliman had already been working on throughout the Great Crusade, and one that was drawn up in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. (Though I think Guilliman probably had planned form the beginning that the Codex should also include the regulations that were in place at the time of the Great Crusade. It just so happens that after the Heresy there had to be fundamentally new ones established after the Heresy.)

[Octavulg]

TEC:

And by "holy tome" you mean "encyclopedia set of holy tomes". tongue.gif

 

Fortunately for me, we don't know what form the Codex Astartes originally took.

 

So ha ha. :D

 

Legatus:

Very nice treatise there. I would like to suggest that the laws and regulations should be mentioned specifically too, though. Depending on the topic where the Codex is mentioned, it can often either be meant to specifically refer to the set of rules that a Space Marine Chapter has to abide by, or it refers specifically to the massive guide on warfare.

 

This is, in my view, because they're part of the same book.

 

They are two parts, one Guilliman had already been working on throughout the Great Crusade, and one that was drawn up in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. (Though I think Guilliman probably had planned form the beginning that the Codex should also include the regulations that were in place at the time of the Great Crusade. It just so happens that after the Heresy there had to be fundamentally new ones established after the Heresy.)

 

True. But they're still the same book (well, it's by far the most likely explanation).

 

The bit was written in response to the marked tendency of Liber Astartes writers to explain how their chapter threw out the stodgy old Codex and invented a NEWUR AND BETTUR WAY OF WARFAIR! Hence its focus.

 

But remember what the fifth ed. Codex says - the Adeptus Terra does not enforce the Codex. They likely couldn't. We have two examples of non-Codex Chapters, neither of whom seem to conform to any of its dictates. The laws and regulations you refer to are almost certainly in there, but we have no proof that they are obeyed even when other aspects of the Codex are not. Indeed, we have only one example of a non-Codex chapter that might obey those restrictions even while ignoring the rest of it.

 

I would argue that in fact, the restrictions are more conventional than legal - if a Chapter appears to be accruing too much power in any fashion, the Inquisition will investigate. Otherwise, they can do as they please - but Codex-adherence is preferred. Frankly, there just isn't enough evidence to argue that all Space Marine Chapters are forced to obey the size restrictions, guidelines on ships, geneseed methods, etc.

 

Oh, and there's a neat bit in one of the Epic books which mentions the Space Wolves and Dark Angels warring over control of a planet's jewel mines. Should be useful.

[Brother Pariah]

Ok, I'm going to throw this one out. Might be slightly off what we're looking for, but I thought it might clarify the issue for other players.

 

Q: What exactly is the Codex Astartes??

 

As I said earlier in the thread, that question cannot be answered completely within the scope of this thread. See here.

[Legatus]

I think the brief description by Octavulg is a pretty good start. It does not neccessarily have to be much longer than that.

 

 

True. But they're still the same book (well, it's by far the most likely explanation).

It is the same "book", but from your description it sounds a bit like it is just the guidebook on how to wage war. This would be no issue if there were not description that specifically refer to it (almost to exclusivity) as the collection of laws and regulations that were established after the Heresy. I am away from my sources right now, but I think the Codex Space Wolves (2nd or 5th perhaps) and maybe some of the INdex Astartes articles might describe it that way (UM, IF or BT might).

 

 

But remember what the fifth ed. Codex says - the Adeptus Terra does not enforce the Codex. They likely couldn't.

It is not enforced "absolutely" IIRC.

 

 

We have two examples of non-Codex Chapters, neither of whom seem to conform to any of its dictates.

I think the Black Templars background specifically points out that they would be under investigation for exceeding the permitted Chapter size, if there were any evidence that they really were that large and did not have such a spotless record of loyalty.

 

And as ar as the Space Wolves are concerned, I still think they are somewhere at about 1500 (or let it be 1700) warriors, which is still within the permitted range, as is described in the Codex Space Marines (or 2nd Edition UM). The "roughly 1000 warriors" is a guideline, and a bit more is permissible in times such as prolonged war for the Chapter. "1000 warriors" also corresponds to the known unit known as "Chapter", which had already been used in the Great Crusade, so that is how Marines are now organised.

If a single Chapter would amass more than 2000 warriors, then it could be divided into two separate Chapters, so I assume that is kind of the absolute max a Chapter would be permitted to have under exceptional circumstances.

[Ultra1k]

Ok, I'm going to throw this one out. Might be slightly off what we're looking for, but I thought it might clarify the issue for other players.

 

Q: What exactly is the Codex Astartes??

 

As I said earlier in the thread, that question cannot be answered completely within the scope of this thread. See here.

 

*checks glasses* Sorry I missed that ;) .

[Walter Payton]

Did Guilliman want to be Warmaster and have a little man-tantrum when he wasn't?

 

Maybe, is the short answer, but I don't have time to type a full one now.

[Octavulg]

Would rely way, way, way too much on BL fluff, IMO.

 

And no one should ever rely on BL fluff.

[Legatus]

Yeah, there was one short remark about how he badly wanted it for himself, and another remark that he was one who just accepted it and with Dorn being the one Horus often consulted and sought approval of. I don't think this is a "frequently asked" issue.

[StGene]

Quick question;

 

The Ultramarines recruit from most of the worlds in Ultramar, right? Obviously, they can't recruit from Parmenio because it is a training planet (and thus probably without humans) or Talasa Prime (because it is an Inquisition Fortress), but they do recruit from worlds like Tarentus and Iax.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes they do. We have no information on Parmenio, but it is likely they don't recruit from it. In fact the world is likely very inhospitable!

 

It is unclear the relationship between Talasa Prime or Konor (Researh world of the Adeptus Mechanicus) and Ultramar. Likely they have a symbiotic relationship or dual soverienity, which probably means the Ultramarines discount them in the worlds they recruit from as the other Imperial organisations there use them for recruitment.

 

More likely than that is both those worlds are not particularly populace anyway. A research world screams to me isolation, whilst an Inquisitional fortress for some reason reminds me of a lonely mountain top keep.

[Cptn. Palladorus]

We know the recruitment methods for the Inquisition and they would not interfere in the least with the Ultramarines recruiting on Talasa Prime.