Legatus Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 The Space Wolves were brought into this because it had been suggested that the Wolves' disregard for the Codex doctrine is proof that Guilliman did not enforce the Codex Astartes. But others (Pariah and me, for example) disagree with that. There are elements of the Codex Astartes that are not enforced (like uniform markings, tactics and even organisation), while there are others that are (like Chapter size). The Space Wolves Legion had to reform into Chapters just like everybody else, so that cannot be taken as proof that the Codex was not enforced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 But to say that the Space Wolves did it out of duty is a fallacy. They did it because it suited them at the time. How long after the Scouring did Russ leave? If it was close maybe they didn't break up until after Russ had left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Russ was against splitting up his Legion, backing Dorn in his opposition of the Second Fouding. But Dorn relented, and apparently so did Russ. Unless he disappeared exactly in the short time frame between voicing his disagreement and the Second Founding. Not the best time to chose to disappear. Either way, it does not really look like the Space Wolves finally agreed to split up because it suddenly suited them. But their reason for complying is really beside the point. What matters is that they did, so we cannot say that the size Limitation was not required by everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 What matters is that they did Right there. You won't make any friends or win any arguments like that. It says more about Guilliman if he doesn't come across as a micromanaging completionist, which adding: 'so persuasive even Russ agreed', make him come across as. 'Even when his brothers refused his ideas, he drove on' sounds much better. Because that's what happened. Not everyone split the moment Guilliman said too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 The FaQ answer on page one does not specifically mention Russ (other than when it describes that there initially was protest). It does close with saying that all the Legions were eventually divided into Chapters. It had been proposed as an argument for that Guilliman had not enforced the Codex that the Space Wolves had not divided into Chapters during the Second Founding. I am maintaining that they did, and that therefor that is not an argument to be used. That does not mean that the Space Wolves have to be specifically pointed out in the FaQ. Simply saying "all the Legion split into Chapters" is sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 Well the proof is the fact the Space Wolves were split into the Wolf Brothers, so they undoubtably turned into a Chapter approximately the size of a normal Chapter (probably a little bigger). Why would they split but maintain their size? I do agree we should barely refer to non-Codex chapters here, it will jsut get to complex! Because the Wolf-Brothers were approximately 1,000 Wolf-Bitten marines, who started falling to the curse at a rate that makes the Flesh Tearers seem stable? Because after that no one argued that they should further split or reproduce? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted April 11, 2010 Author Share Posted April 11, 2010 All right, I think that everyone's had their say on the Space Wolf issue. Further, and more-productive, discussion can take place in the Space Wolves forum, where perhaps their greater expertise can shed some more light on that subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 11, 2010 Share Posted April 11, 2010 I think it is important for both sides to note that the First Founding Chapters retained a majority of their traditions and privileges, this makes Guilliman look better honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 The answer to that particular question is not quite satisfactory, as had been pointed out by a few poster already IIRC. I think one of the criticisms was that it does not really say if or how the Codex was enforced, but merley startes to explain that there was a dispute about the division into Chapters. An answer along the lines that certain elements of the Codex like the limitation of Marine forces were enforced, while others like organisation and heraldry were not, might be more like it. It could also be pointed out that most of the Legions had adopted much of the Codex doctrine over the course of the scouring anyway. I am not in the condition to phrase a proper reply right now, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Like I've pointed out before - that question is really three. I also offered answers to all three. Thoughts from the evidently-divided gallery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeGuy Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Is there any evidence that states the Space Wolves refer to themselves as a Chapter? Or is it simply other people putting a label on them? I mean, from all the things I've read they seem to refer to themselves as Sons of Fenris, or the Wolves etc. The whole chapter/legion thing could simply be the viewpoint of the imperium at large, which considers any independent force of astartes to be chapters? Just some thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 Okay, seriously. This is my mod-color here. Let's take the Space Wolf discussion to the Space Wolf forum, please. [/mod hat] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Okay, seriously. This is my mod-color here. Let's take the Space Wolf discussion to the Space Wolf forum, please. [/mod hat] Here here. One thing you could do, unless this is strictly fluff, is: Why does GW make so many Ultra-specific models, its not fair!?! I can answer that if you want, unless this is strictly fluff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Oh, uoh, I know the answer: "They don't!" ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Maybe Characters would be more appropriate. Although that question is only answered one way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Thats not true at all. Special Characters... Honor Gaurd.... Ultrabitz on Vangaurd and Captains, some of the older veterans models.... I dont buy alot of the standard marine kits these days.... but thats just off the top of my head :lol:. The question would probly be better phrased as "why does GW use Ultramarines as the cover art for all the standard marine kits?". The answer being fairly straightforward: apparently they felt it was a good idea to present a simple, united, and established color scheme on their miniatures wich would stand out from the drab tans and smokes that they were going to use for their backgrounds, or against the greens and trees of earlier box sets. They succeeded remarkably in this, and its very easy to locate a "normal" box of marines on sight these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Thats not true at all. Special Characters... Well, that hardly counts... :( Honor Gaurd... They're horrid, so everybody loses? Ultrabitz on Vangaurd Really? I don't own any of those, because 1) I don't accept them as Codex approved and 2) I would just use regular Assault squads with white helmets and trims. I never noticed ultra-specific bits in the Codex pictures though. Captains Well, ok, that one totally got an additional Ultramarine shoulder pad. Others like the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels, the Black templars or the Blood Angels can only dream of extra plastic... now wait a minute! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Captains Well, ok, that one totally got an additional Ultramarine shoulder pad. Others like the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels, the Black templars or the Blood Angels can only dream of extra plastic... now wait a minute! :) And a powerfist ;). Cant forget the powerfist. Seriously, I even said that wasnt an exhaustive list... I also specificly left out things like Drop Pods where they had other chapter specific bits right in there. But compare that, like others will, to the number of Salamanders bitz or Ravengaurd Bitz found in any generic marine kit..... Outside of Shrike and that Horrible looking model they have for the sallies Id be greatly impressed if you could find even one thats still in production. I also still say that its not the real question people are looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I gotcha, and I was mainly opposed to the notion that there allegedly are "so many Ultra-specific models" when their model selection pales compared to what the other big three and the Black Templars get. The Ultramarines have about half the amount of pages dedicated to them compared the other big three, and now they cannot even have a few models for themselves? I don't remember a powerfist though. I think the Captains powefist simply has a laurel on it IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Yea, the only Ultramarines-specific bit in the Captain box is the shoulder pad. The power fist has a laurel on it; any marine from any chapter can earn such an honor. Perhaps it'd be good to list out the specific metals/plastics each of the big four (5 I guess...lame...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I gotcha, and I was mainly opposed to the notion that there allegedly are "so many Ultra-specific models" when their model selection pales compared to what the other big three and the Black Templars get. The Ultramarines have about half the amount of pages dedicated to them compared the other big three, and now they cannot even have a few models for themselves? I don't remember a powerfist though. I think the Captains powefist simply has a laurel on it IIRC. Yea, the only Ultramarines-specific bit in the Captain box is the shoulder pad. The power fist has a laurel on it; any marine from any chapter can earn such an honor. Perhaps it'd be good to list out the specific metals/plastics each of the big four (5 I guess...lame...). I think it is now approapriate for it to be the Big 5. Not trying to kick sand in your face but I think it is apparent that BT are more popular than UM. BT ushered in the best Land Raider, have there own Codex and models. UM don't. *I think GW wish they had made the IF with the BT depth instead of turning them into UM clones. That is coming from someone who enjoys Dorn as a character too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeGuy Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I think it is now approapriate for it to be the Big 5. Not trying to kick sand in your face but I think it is apparent that BT are more popular than UM.BT ushered in the best Land Raider, have there own Codex and models. UM don't. I don't think it's a matter of BT being more popular, I think it's simply that the Ultramarines are a codex chapter, therefore they use codex markings/honours, which any codex chapter can use. /shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I think it is now approapriate for it to be the Big 5. Not trying to kick sand in your face but I think it is apparent that BT are more popular than UM.BT ushered in the best Land Raider, have there own Codex and models. UM don't. I can't even name a Black Templar player I know IRL, while I can name at least one other Ultramarine player. The best Land Raider is the Prometheus, and the current edition of Codex:Ultramarines just has some guest stars. Black Templar barely have more models (3 more if you're counting super strictly, otherwise there's more Ultramarines). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 The point I was trying to make is that Templars are just as much part of the pantheon as the UM. Hence Big 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I think it is now approapriate for it to be the Big 5. Not trying to kick sand in your face but I think it is apparent that BT are more popular than UM.BT ushered in the best Land Raider, have there own Codex and models. UM don't. I can't even name a Black Templar player I know IRL, while I can name at least one other Ultramarine player. The best Land Raider is the Prometheus, and the current edition of Codex:Ultramarines just has some guest stars. Black Templar barely have more models (3 more if you're counting super strictly, otherwise there's more Ultramarines). And see TEC I have the opposite problem... Ive seen one Ultras player in the last 2 years, but I know three Templars players, though one of them hasnt seen the light of day in almost a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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