Ultramarines FAQ

[Octavulg]

Q. Why weren't the Ultramarines at the Battle of Terra during the Horus Heresy? Did the Ultramarines participate in any way at all during the Horus Heresy?

 

A. When the Horus Heresy unfolded, the Ultramarines were far away at the southeast of the galaxy. Depending on the source, it was either their own successes or a deliberate set up by Horus that had carried them so far away from Terra. They were not involved in the Istvaan V massacre or the battle for Terra, but they did have some bearing on the events of the Heresy. Horus had committed a considerable portion of the Word Bearers Legion to attack the Ultramarines in their home System, hoping to cripple them or even wipe them out in a surprise attack. These Word Bearer forces were therefor not present at the battle for Terra. The Ultramarines are also said to have destroyed a traitor fleet en route to support Horus when they were on their way to Terra, further relieving the defenders. They could obviously have done so much more, had they not been in such a disadvantageous position. As events went, they were not among the more cruicial or suffering Legions of the Heresy.

 

I'd recommend:

At the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, the Ultramarines were far away at the southeast of the galaxy. Depending on the source, it was either their own successes or a deliberate set up by Horus that had carried them so far away from Terra. Horus had ordered a considerable portion of the Word Bearers to attack the realm of Ultramar in order to cripple or destroy the Ultramarines - indeed, the surface of Calth is unlivable today thanks to Word Bearer weaponry. Additionally, IA: Alpha Legion involves the Ultramarines in a battle against the Alphas on Eskrador on their way back to Terra, which may be the traitor fleet other sources mention the Ultramarines destroying en route to Terra. Thus, while they did see combat in the Heresy, they missed most of the more famous engagements due to being out of position and the delaying actions of the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers.

 

Focuses more on what they were doing, less what we think of what they were doing or could have been doing.

 

Q. Did Guilliman enforce his Codex on the other Legions/Primarchs immediately following the Heresy, and even fire upon loyalist troops, almost causing a second, more destructive Heresy?

 

A. To prevent such a Heresy occurring again, Guilliman re-organised the military of the whole Imperium, not just the Space Marines. The main point of contention between the Space Marines regarding the Codex was actually only the breaking up of the Legions into Chapters. He was supported in this in particular by Corax of the Raven Guard and Khan of the White Scars and was only opposed by 3 of his brother Primarchs. As tensions increased, they came to a head when an Imperial Navy Cruiser fired upon an Imperial Fist vessel, Dorn relented and with this all the Legions split into Chapters. - Source: Index Astartes Imperial Fists and Black Templars

 

There's at least three questions here - did Guilliman force his Codex on others, was it immediately following the Heresy, and did he fire upon loyalist troops?

 

I'd recommend:

Q: Did Guilliman force his Codex on his brother Primarchs?

 

A: Not exactly. While Guilliman presented his Codex Astartes as a foregone conclusion, and called its chief opponent a heretic, he appears to have been commander of the entire Imperial Military - one of the High Lords of Terra (C:UM 2e calls him this, but IA: BT (or possibly IF) calls him the 'de facto' head of the Imperial military). At minimum, he had been acting as commander of the Imperial military for years through the Scouring. He was certainly in a position to propose such an idea, and arguably in a position to enforce it. Furthermore, most of the negative reaction appears to have been focused around the issue of splitting the Legions, which is reinforced by the fact that the other Legions had adopted many Ultramarine methods through the years of the Scouring (IA: UM). Additionally, the compilation of the Codex seems to have been publicly known - Battlefleet Gothic fluff makes reference to Corax participating in debate over what the Codex should dictate for Space Marine fleets (he won the argument). Finally, the current Codex: Space Marines mentions that the HIgh Lords have never felt it necessary to enforce the minor dictates of the Codex. Thus, while the Codex was certainly non-negotiable, opportunity was given to other Primarchs to influence the document and they were still reasonably free to conduct their affairs as they saw fit - just not with a Legion.

 

Q: Didn't he do that in the wake of the Heresy, when his brothers were still reeling from the Emperor's death?

 

A: No. He did it after the Scouring, the decades-long period following the Emperor's demise where the forces of Chaos and alien influences were driven away from the weakened Imperium by the equally weakened Adeptus Astartes. Though the Emperor no doubt weighed heavily on everyone's mind, he had been on the Golden Throne for years by the time the Codex was proposed.

 

Q: But didn't his forces fire on the Imperial Fists when they wouldn't adopt the Codex?

 

A: Not exactly. The Imperial Navy did, but it is unclear whether the ship(s) that did so were acting on orders or not, or where those orders (if any) came from. Certainly, Dorn had been refusing the dictates of the Codex for three years - it is possible Guilliman might have ordered such action, but it would seem equally likely that he might have been unwilling to risk forcing a military confrontation between loyal forces. The truth is unknowable. Certainly, Dorn's later behavior does not suggest that Dorn thought Guilliman was responsible.

 

Q. Did Guilliman take over the Imperium, breaking up the Legions to solidify his power-base?

 

A. Guilliman became one of the first High Lords of Terra and Lord Commander of the Imperium's military, the only man to hold command the entire of it's military. (Source: Codex Ultramarines 2nd edition) Reading this single quote logically, it is obvious that Guilliman was without a doubt a very powerful man, but did not command the Imperium at all, as the myriad of other organisations came into ascendance at this time and meant a single High Lord of Terra was unable to take complete control of the Imperium so easily. (The High Lord Vandire was an exception as he held dual posts within the High Lords council, Guilliman held only one.) The perview of the post of Lord Commander of the Imperium's military was a military position only, and therefore had no effect on the Astronomican, Astra Telepathica, Navigators Houses, the Adepts of Terra, the Adeptus Mechanicus etc.

 

The Ultramarines accounted for more than half the Space Marines in the field in the time of the Scouring and they were split all over the Imperium. (Sources: Codex Space Marines/Ultramarines 2nd - 5th editions) Breaking his own Legion down would do nothing positive to a bid for power, as all it did was take away his own direct influence, particularly on a long term. Indeed, the Ultramarines do not command all the other Chapters in present day 40K, and their influence is not more than that of the Space Wolves (see 13th Black Crusade) or the Blood Angels (see 2nd war for Armaggeddon).

 

Not only does this spell purview wrong, I still think mine was better. :)

 

I recommend:

A: No. Guilliman was one High Lord among many (if he was a High Lord at all), and his Codex reduced his authority over the other Astartes rather than solidifying it. Reforming the Imperial military removed him from his command over it, and broke up his massive legion and spread it across the galaxy. It did mean that everyone was doing things his way, which was no doubt gratifying, but any increase in prestige was more than balanced out by the massive decrease in authority for a man who had been head of the Imperial military.

 

Also, the last line is flatly incompatible with Codex: Space Marines.

 

One caveat - if he did continue as Lord Commander after the Legions were split, it would solidify his power base by reducing the perceived importance of Dorn et al.

 

Q. Did Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists, hate Guilliman and his Codex?

 

A. No. Following the death of the Emperor, and his internment on the Golden Throne, Dorn was inconsolable. He flew into a rage and began a ruthless pursuit of the Traitor Legions as they retreated across the Imperium. The Scouring, as this time period become known, was a period of war and strife matched only by the Horus Heresy. The Imperial Fists were merciless in their pursuit, focused solely on revenge. During this time only Guilliman had the foresight and wisdom to see that if the Imperium was neglected with the sole purpose of exacting revenge, everything the Astartes and the Emperor built would die out.

 

During the Scouring the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines worked together to expel the Iron Warriors from many different worlds, including Olympia, the homeworld of the Iron Warriors.

 

Unfortunately, Dorn's anger had blinded him to the changing times. He was absent from the meetings in which the fate of the Imperium was being decided. Seven years into the Scouring, Guilliman revealed the Codex and declared the Legions to be broken apart, but Dorn refused to comply with the Codex. Guilliman called Dorn a heretic and a rebel. It was only when the Imperial Navy fired on an Imperial Fist vessel, that Dorn saw the light. He would lead his men once more into Hell against the Iron Warriors, the last great battle of the VII Legion, and they would emerge a Chapter. The Iron Cage incident is well documented, and it is undeniable that without Guilliman putting aside his personal differences and coming to the aid of the Imperial Fists, there was a very real chance that there would be no more Imperial Fists. Dorn formed the new chapters, and retrained the remnants of his original Legion to the standards of Guilliman's Codex Astartes.

 

In spite of the infamous argument it can be assumed that Dorn and Guilliman were close, as only brothers can be. Dorn is one of only four Primarch's honored with a statue at the Fortress of Hera on Macragge. The Ultramarines and Imperial Fists Chapters have fought together in the ten millennia since the Heresy on multiple occasions, the most recent being the battle to retake Nimbosa.

 

Could be tightened up a lot, and is needlessly "Gosh, isn't Guilliman dreamy" in the first paragraph.

 

What about:

A. No. During the Scouring the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines worked together to expel the Iron Warriors from many different worlds, including Olympia, the homeworld of the Iron Warriors. Upon the announcement of the Codex, Dorn refused to comply with the Codex. His honor insulted, Dorn called Guilliman a coward while Guilliman called Dorn a heretic and a rebel. The standoff continued until the Imperial Navy fired upon an Imperial Fists ship, shocking Dorn into action. The resulting Iron Cage incident is well documented, and it is undeniable that without Guilliman putting aside his personal differences and coming to the aid of the Imperial Fists, there was a very real chance that there would be no more Imperial Fists. Dorn formed the new chapters, and retrained the remnants of his original Legion to the standards of Guilliman's Codex Astartes - they are renowned for their dedication to the Codex today. Dorn is one of only four Primarchs honored with a statue at the Fortress of Hera on Macragge. The Ultramarines and Imperial Fists Chapters have fought together in the ten millennia since the Heresy on multiple occasions, the most recent being the battle to retake Nimbosa. Though Dorn and Guilliman did quarrel, it would appear to be an exception rather than the norm.

 

Shorter, and gets less bogged down in unrelated matters.

 

Q: Does the introduction of such things as the Tyrannic War Veterans and the Seditio Opprimere mean that the Ultramarines have begun to violate the Codex Astartes?

 

By their very own description, yes, the Tyrannic War Veterans are a violation of the Codex Astartes. But the Ultramarines decided that it is ok in this instance, according to the Tyrannic War Veterans' background, as for one thing the Ultramarines were in dire need of a full 1st Company, and also because of their deep hatred for the Tyranids.

 

The Ultramarines are still also described as strict followers and paragon Chapter of the Codex Astartes, however, so currently it is basically up to the players which of these two mutually exclusive pieces of background they decide to go by. The Ultramarines are either the paragon of Codex Chapters, with no special units, or they have Tyrannic War Veterans, thereby being less Codex conform than the Imperial Fists or the Raven Guard. Both versions are supported in the 4th and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines.

 

NO. The Codex is a living and evolving document. New threats are abound to arise over time. Thus new tactics, techniques, and procedures are created to counter these threats. Though while the creation of these items may not have been in the letter of the Codex (at the time), they followed the spirit of the codex is tactical problem solving to the codex's balanced approach to warfare (C:SM 5th Ed, pg. 51). The Codex stress fluid and flexible operations.

 

The Ultramarines themselves were obviously divided on the issue, and eventually voted to amend the Codex Astartes to "legalize" the TWVs.

 

Uh...you kinda have to pick one answer or the other - I'd lean toward Legatus', because, y'know. He's right and has the quotes to prove it.

 

Q. Cannot the success of the Ultramarines Legion during the Great Crusade be attributed entirely to the Legion's enormeous size?

 

A. The Emperor did not present Roboute Guilliman with an already over-sized Legion. He started with a normal Legion, and the Ultramarines were already said to be faster in their progress from the very beginning. After a short time the Legion started to be reinforced by the first recruits from Macragge, and because of the thoroughly organised recruitment program on the one hand and the few casualties on the other hand the Ultramarines soon came to be the largest of the Legions. The Ultramarines' successes were not a result of the Legion's size, their size was a result of their successes.

(5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 13; 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, page 12)

 

- They suffered fewer casualties in battle than any other Legion due to Guilliman's tactical expertise

 

(5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 13; 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, page 12)

 

I think adding "(but the size didn't hurt :P) would help take the edge off the last bit. It feels a little confrontational.

 

All in all, pretty good, but needs more me. ;)

[Brother Pariah]

Admitting that "no, Leman Russ did not accept the Codex and its decrees" reinforces that Guilliman did not totally force the Codex on the other Legions. It helps the Ultramarines case, and should not be ignored. Likewise it makes the situation exponentially worse, particularly to Space Wolf readers, to try and say the Space Wolves did break up and adopt Guillimans decrees. It just isn't really supported by the fluff, while it could be argued either way, IMO the weight of evidence is against such a statement. When the Ultramarines make it, particularly with regards to the purpose of this FAQ, it just undermines any credibility or sense of neutrality you hope to achieve.

 

I've debated this point many times before and if you want readers, especially Space Wolf readers, to take these questions and answers seriously they can't be from an Ultramarines perspective, which your above statement most deffinitely is. Others heavily disagree and you don't want what are supposed to be neutral answers to common questions to be points of contention, particularly when its heated contention that you're trying to avoid. :D

Are you seriously suggesting that the Space Wolves were or are at Legion-strength after the Scouring?

 

I'm not sure, it still comes off with a bit too much "of course we're not breaking the Codex, we're Ultramarines!" attitude and I'm not sure I buy the whole I-think-therefore-I-am type argument. We're-Codex-therefore-our-empire-is-codex-too thing is understandable but I'm not sure its an answer critics will accept. There isn't going to be a spotless answer to every question, but here's what I think could be said, in part or in whole:

 

"In truth until relatively recently in the fluff the realm of Ultramar was unprecedented, no others had such a realm and nothing in the Codex allowed or disallowed its existence.

 

It does not appear to actually break any of the Codex's known conventions but could certainly have been abused and may be seen as opposed to the spirit of Guillimans decrees to split the Imperiums armed forces and prevent any one man from commanding too mighty a force. The Ultramarines have all the necessary tools to churn out an army and fleet of vast size in a relatively short ammount of time. However given Guillimans actions in holding the Imperium together during the Scouring and the fact that while he could have easily taken over rule of the Imperium, he didn't the High Lords may have deemed the unorthodox realm of the Ultramarines an acceptable concession to those who had fought so hard to keep the Imperium together.

 

Another possible explenation is that none of the worlds of Ultramar were that effective or efficient on their own except for perhaps Macragge and relied on each other, splitting them up amongst Successor Chapters would have drastically reduced their capabilities and therefore weakened one of the Imperiums greatest bullwarks on the Eastern Rim of the galaxy.

 

A third possible explenation is that even should the worlds have been split up and given to successor Chapters, their ties of mutual support, communication and trade may have been percieved as Guilliman simply attempting to keep a portion of his Legion close together, the various successor Chapters being almost unable to avoid supporting each other, therefore to make it clear Guilliman was not keeping oversight of his successors it was deemed necessary to send them further afield and leave Ultramar be. Nevertheless the Codex doesn't really have much to say on the subject and its not clear whether the realm of Ultramar is somewhat against the Codex's conventions and if so by how much.

 

What is known is that other Astartes Chapters have begun to create empires of their own through trade, political support or military alliance, and while this growing trend is a somewhat worrisome increase in the relative power and influence of the Adeptus Astartes, the action does not appear to be in major contention with the Codex or the Astartes perview to cause the High Lords to take action against such expansions of influence."

 

Any or all of those explenations would be more neutral and reasonable and less likely to appear biased than the current answer to the question.

See, to me, this is an issue with a simple answer. I don't see how writing three additional paragraphs explaining all of the nuances is necessary. Critics of the Ultramarines have frequently tried to use the Realm of Ultramar as some sort of example of the Ultramarines' hypocrisy. I am perfectly willing to entertain the idea that Guilliman was a tyrant, that the Tyrannic War Veterans are an example of Calgar's pathetic attempt to abandon the Codex because the Tyranids made him mad, or that the Ultramarines are borrrring, because those situations are either ambiguous or are represented by contradictory fluff. The idea that the Ultramarines, of all Chapters, have been systematically violating the Codex Astartes since the Second Founding is simply an absurd notion that should be nipped in the bud in the most concise fashion possible, in my opinion.

 

All told you don't want people to read this FAQ and then go: "of course they'd say that, they're Ultramarines," on the contrary the answers in the FAQ should be written in a way that they are not self-agrandising or biased and don't try to always reflect positively on the Ultramarines. If the answers are too self-agrandising then it undermines the credibility of the answers and defeats the purpose of the FAQ.

The answers should be correct, and should present all of the official background material on the subject, regardless of that material's slant. If you can find a source that states that Ultramar is in some fashion a violation of the Codex Astartes, I'd be happy to include it. Trying to interpret the "spirit of the law" of a fictional document that has never been presented for us to read is outside of what I am willing to consider doing, at this point. Now, if a character in an official source was to voice his opinion that the Realm of Ultramar was a violation of the spirit of the Codex, that would certainly be worth including, I think.

 

As Marshal2 Crusaders said, the answers can't be defensive in nature. Neutral explenations and even a few self-depricating concessions will work far better than the expected defensive arguments we've all seen time and time again.

 

The important thing in the end is the manner in which the answer is written so that it doesn't try to twist, stretch, or color events to the Ultramarines favor but simply states what happened in as neutral and unbiased a way as possible. Sure some people will always see it as defensive but you can never please everyone, and even trying will just drive you crazy.

Got it. I expect to take several more editing passes through this material before it's ready.

 

Uh...you kinda have to pick one answer or the other - I'd lean toward Legatus', because, y'know. He's right and has the quotes to prove it.

He neglected the single most important source, the article describing the Ultramarines' adoption of the TWVs, so I'm going to do a bit of research on my own. I think that this is one of those "yes and no" sort of answers. Clearly the Ultramarine's high command considered the Codex to be insufficient for their purposes. This opinion may have been justified or not. What was made clear in the article I mentioned was that the Codex is a living document, which may be amended, which is what the Ultramarines did. Ultimately, this is a much more complicated situation, which demands a more nuanced answer, I think. The motivations described are different in different sources; some seem reasonable and honourable, some are do not paint the Ultramarines in a good light at all, and some involve compomises to the "spirit of the Codex" that could nevertheless be necessary for the survival of the Ultramarines and the Imperium itself.

[Legatus]

If a single Chapter can decide to change the Codex Astartes as long as the majority of the Chapter agree on it, the whole concept of a "Codex" that some Chapters strictly adhere to becomes inane. Expandinig the guides from the Codex is one thing, but changing them would be against what it represents. The entire background and justification for the Tyrannic War Veterans is just so very poorly contrived, and does not exhibit a particularly good familiarity with the Warhammer 40K Space Marine background on the part of the author. And, as I have mentioned before, the rest of the description of the Ultramarines Chapter does not seem totake this divergence into account at all.

 

The most recent description of the Tyrannic War Veterans and their status in relation to the Codex Astartes comes from the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 87: "Though [the formation of the Tyrannic War Veterans] is perhaps a minor deviation from the Codex Astartes, Lord Macragge tolerates his mentor's divergence."

 

It appears that the White Dwarf desciption about how the Ultramarines agreed to change the Codex Astartes to sanction the Tyrannic War Veterans has been dismissed by the current Codex. With a little bit of luck they will be retconned out of existence entirely in the next Codex Space Marines.

[Octavulg]

This just in: Space Wolves now Codex adherent. Codex also now written in crayon.

 

Yeah. What Legatus said basically sums up my feelings, as well. Though instead of being disappointed by the Ultramarines diverging, I'm cackling smugly.

 

But the reasoning's the same. :(

[Captain Idaho]

This just in: Space Wolves now Codex adherent. Codex also now written in crayon.

 

Yeah. What Legatus said basically sums up my feelings, as well. Though instead of being disappointed by the Ultramarines diverging, I'm cackling smugly.

 

But the reasoning's the same. :(

 

Wait a minute?! Both yourself and Legatus agree on something?! Is it a full moon?

[Brother Pariah]

This just in: Space Wolves now Codex adherent. Codex also now written in crayon.

Very helpful. :rolleyes:

 

Yeah. What Legatus said basically sums up my feelings, as well. Though instead of being disappointed by the Ultramarines diverging, I'm cackling smugly.

 

But the reasoning's the same. ;)

It will certainly go into the FAQ. I cackle at the idea of the Ultramarines diverging sometimes too, in my darker moments.

[Octavulg]

Idaho:

 

Wait a minute?! Both yourself and Legatus agree on something?! Is it a full moon?

 

No, no. He thinks that it's a bad thing. I think that it's hilarious.

 

See? Totally different. ;)

 

* * *

Pariah:

 

Very helpful. rolleyes.gif

 

I know! :rolleyes:

 

It will certainly go into the FAQ. I cackle at the idea of the Ultramarines diverging sometimes too, in my darker moments.

 

You're one of those self-hating Ultramarines, who can't appreciate his rich Mary-Sue heritage. There's nothing sadder than that. ;)

[Brother Pariah]

You're one of those self-hating Ultramarines, who can't appreciate his rich Mary-Sue heritage. There's nothing sadder than that. ;)

I'm the Kafka of Ultramarines! :rolleyes:

[Legatus]

This just in: Space Wolves now Codex adherent.

The problem is that the Codex is most famously refered to as the fundamental guidebook for Adeptus Astartes organisation and doctrines. A Chapter is refered to as a "Codex Chapter" depending on how rigidly it adheres to those guidelines. It is usually differentiated between near absolute adherence (most Chapters today), somewhat close/loose adherence (Chapters like Bood Angels or Dark Angels with some notable differences but the basic Chapter structure) and low adherence (rare, basically Space Wolves and Black Templars).

 

However, the Codex also includes the regulations for the Adeptus Astartes, things like limited man power and fleet assets, their position among the Imperial Institutions, what they are entiteled or required to do. There were such regulations before the Codex Astartes, when the Space Marines were organised Legions. Marines had their place back then as well. And as the Codex Astartes was intended to be the fundamental book on all aspects of Space Marines it would also include all these kinds of regulations, plus a few crucial new ones.

 

When the sources explain that the Space Wolves "owe nothing to the Codex", then they are saying that the Space Wolves do not care what the Codex says how a Battle Company should be organized and operate for maximum efficiency. The Space Wolves are organized and operate as Russ would have wanted them to. They are the farthest from a "Codex Chapter" you can get. BUT they are still a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes and part of the Imperial military forces. There are laws they have to obey, and these laws are collected in the Codex Astartes.

 

 

Codex "law" examples:

 

- In case of absence of the appropriately ranked Imperial Guard Officier, a Space Marine Force Commander has superiority over Imperial Guard Colonels, even though the two are of distinct military branches.

 

- Should Astartes forces joing crusade efforts of the Imperial Guard, the commanding Lord Militant Commander has superiority over Astartes Captains. Should an entire Chapter commit to the efforts, the Chapter Master can contest the command of the Lord Militant Commander if he so choses.

 

- Space warfare is the exclusive domain of the Imperial Navy. Therefor Adeptus Astartes vessels may only be equipped for boarding and planetary landing missions. The only permitted vessels equipped entirely for ship combat are escort classes.

 

- An Adeptus Astartes Chapter is independent from other Imperial Institutions and does not have to answer calls from members of the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy or the Adeptus Ministorum. But the Chapter has to file an explanation for the denial of support.

 

(I made these up, but these are the kind of things that would have to be regulated in some way)

 

 

Codex "guide" examples:

 

- A standard Company consists of one commanding Captain and ten Squads of 10 Marines.

 

- A Battle Company is intended to deal with any possible situation, and thus consists of 6 Tactical Squads, 2 Assault Squads and 2 Devastator Squads.

 

- A Tactical Squad can include one special weapon and one heavy weapon.

 

 

Any Chapter can proceed to ignore the "guide" bits without any consequences. The Dark Angels only have 4 "Battle Companies" instead of the suggested 5. The Iron Hands have only Battle Companies, and they include Veterans and Scouts in those companies. The Salamanders occasionally equip Tactical Squads with two special weapons. These are the parts the Adeptus Terra does not "feel neccessary to enforce absolutely". However, should a Chapter violate any of the "laws", other Imperial Institutions will probably be looking into it. The only reason the Black Templars are not under observation for their alleged excessive Chapter size is that there has been no proof for it so far and because they have never shown signs of disloyalty.

 

Guilliman's heart and soul went into compiling the "guide", of course, which he already had started during the Great Crusade. He would probably also have included the "laws" that were current at the time of the Great Crusade (he probably allways had intended the Codex to be all encompassing), but due to the heresy he was then required to include some new ones as well.

 

The Space Wolves ignore the "guide" bit pretty much entirely (though I think I remember a 2nd Edition source explaining that they only go with the bits that suite them or something like that), but they will certainly not ignore any or all the rules and regulations an Adeptus Astartes Chapter is bound to.

[Brother Pariah]

Well-put, Legatus.

[Grey Mage]

This just in: Space Wolves now Codex adherent.

 

Codex "law" examples:

 

- In case of absence of the appropriately ranked Imperial Guard Officier, a Space Marine Force Commander has superiority over Imperial Guard Colonels, even though the two are of distinct military branches.

 

- Should Astartes forces joing crusade efforts of the Imperial Guard, the commanding Lord Militant Commander has superiority over Astartes Captains. Should an entire Chapter commit to the efforts, the Chapter Master can contest the command of the Lord Militant Commander if he so choses.

 

- Space warfare is the exclusive domain of the Imperial Navy. Therefor Adeptus Astartes vessels may only be equipped for boarding and planetary landing missions. The only permitted vessels equipped entirely for ship combat are escort classes.

 

- An Adeptus Astartes Chapter is independent from other Imperial Institutions and does not have to answer calls from members of the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy or the Adeptus Ministorum. But the Chapter has to file an explanation for the denial of support.

 

(I made these up, but these are the kind of things that would have to be regulated in some way)

 

......

 

The Space Wolves ignore the "guide" bit pretty much entirely (though I think I remember a 2nd Edition source explaining that they only go with the bits that suite them or something like that), but they will certainly not ignore any or all the rules and regulations an Adeptus Astartes Chapter is bound to.

Complete fail legatus. The most obvious being the bit about Astartes spacecraft.... of the 15 SW Battlebarges and Strike Cruisers, atleast five are known to be fully capable and powerful battleships, battle cruisers and grand cruisers that are more than capable of going toe to toe with imperial and chaos navy forces in a space battle.

 

There is nothing in the fluff to show that the SWs have done anything but continue with the traditions they already have. That some of those traditions would be very similar, or identical, to what is found in the codex is no coincidence, but neither does it mean that they are in any way following the CA. What it does mean is that Guilliman was not an idiot, and used parts of the Legions pre-existing ways of going about things when he wrote his tome of knowledge instead of making up new things all willy-nilly. If it aint broke, dont fix it.

 

Your right... when SMs dont follow the codex's guidelines it can make imperial leaders a bit itchy. Partially because of the heresy, partially because no imperial commander wants to consider the possibility of a SM Chapter opposing him on anything, or not coming when called. Its well documented that both the Eclissiarchy and a portion of the Inquisition have little love for the Space Wolves... going so far as to send investigative expeditions, or on one occaision an outright invasion force.

 

That doesnt mean that Salamanders dont continue to operate in Grand Companies, or that the Dark Angels dont follow a hierarchy that pays only lip service to the idea of a sundered legion, It just means that when it comes time to make new chapters, allocate resources, or the priority that the greater government will send military aid, the Ultramarines and other Codex-adherent chapters will likely get favoritism, with only the great status and power of others preventing their needs from being forgotten on a regular basis.

 

A SM Chapter is a government in and of itself. When it comes down to it, there are really only three 'laws' they must adhere to:

1) They must keep faith with the Emperor.

2) They must pay their taxes and blood and death.

3) They must sustain the spiritual and physical purity of their creation.

 

Outside those bounds, anything could happen. Some chapters, like the Flesh Tearers for instance, are incredibly zealous about responding to whatever calls come there way. Others, like the Ultramarines and Space Wolves protect entire subsectors and have ancient accords to defend other areas. Some will claim right of Conquest like the Crimson Fists, others will crusade through the galaxy like the Black Templars. Heck, to an extent some will even use Xeno-tech, side with radical elements of the inquisition, or leave untold thousands of gaurdsmen to die for the sake of an origional copy of the codex astartes.

 

Oh, and theres an interesting one. Ill be back with the sourcing, but the SWs actually have an origional copy of the Codex Astartes, given to them by Guilliman- it resides in a vault in the bottom of the Fang, and I doubt it sees the light of day more than once every 5 or 600 years.

[Legatus]

Complete fail legatus. The most obvious being the bit about Astartes spacecraft.... of the 15 SW Battlebarges and Strike Cruisers, atleast five are known to be fully capable and powerful battleships, battle cruisers and grand cruisers that are more than capable of going toe to toe with imperial and chaos navy forces in a space battle.

Where do we know that from?

 

Also, about Battle Barges:

 

"In ship-to-ship combat I would rate this vessel as compareable to an Emperor class battleship, its lower acceleration and closer ranged weapons weighing off against superior armour and shields. Naturally the battle barge would make a frightening opponent in any situation where boarding is involved."

Vessels of the Imperium, page 26 (print) or page 16 (pdf)

 

Are the Space Wolves ships like that "capable of going toe to toe" with imperial and chaos ships?

 

 

There is nothing in the fluff to show that the SWs have done anything but continue with the traditions they already have.

There is substantial evidence that the Space Wolves are now a "Chapter" and no "Legion" anymore.

 

This is how the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves described it, for example (page 9):

 

"Both the High Lords and the Primarchs feared the resurgence of Chaos. (...)

Never again could the Imperium tolerate the possibility of Space Marine armies falling under the influence of an enemy. The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller Chapters and a code was drawn up to redefine their role and jurisdiction within the Imperium. This code was called the Codex Astartes and it established teh basis on which Space Marines would operate in the future. Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order each Chapter's size was determined at about a thousand. The original Legion survived as a smaller Chapter and continued to keep its old name, but the remaining Space Marine warriors were reorganised into new Chapters.

(...) The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognised the problems of genetic instability that would plague the genetic seed of Leman Russ, giving rise inlater times to the terrible curse of Wulfen, and therefor decided against dividing and further spreading the Space Wolves' genetic base."

 

Note how in that instance, the Codex Astartes is refered to entirely as the collection of the laws and regulations that were formed after the heresy, as opposed to when the background talks about "Codex Chapters", where it is all about the organisation and tactics.

 

I included the last bit so as to not be accused of quote mining. That bit is included and even expanded in the 5th Edition Codex, while the actual reason for why the Legion was divided only once was cut, giving the impression that the Legion was not reformed into a Chapter at all and had merely split off Chapter worth of Marines from a much larger number. But then even in the 5th Edition Codex they went from "Legion" to "Chapter". The 2nd Edition Codex was more specific about the reason for why the Space Wolves were divided into only two Chapters (and the 3rd Edition Index Astartes was also specific about them doing that), and the final bit about not further spreading their gene-seed probably refers to the fact that the Space Wolves had no successors in later foundings. Nothing on that page suggests that the Space Wolves Legion was not reformed into a number of Chapters just like the rest of the other Legions, the most obvious pointer for that is that they are henceforth refered to as a "Chapter".

 

The part about the Space Wolves' rebellious and excentric ways comes later, in the "Chapter Organisation" section (page 11):

 

"The Space Wolves are organised in a very different way from most other Chapters. The Chapter dates from the first founding and its structure owes more to the personality of Leman Russ than it does to the Codex Astartes."

 

Note that while this section explains that the Space Wolves are not too keen on the Codex organisational doctrines, it too leaves no doubt that the Space Wolves are now a "Chapter". This would have been the place to explain that the Space Wolves are not a Chapter at all.

 

 

Also, I just noticed that the Index Astartes article about the creation of Space Marines mentions Space Wolves at one point, and how they exhibit a mutation in one of their implants (Index Astartes I, page 7, "The Risks"). That would lend credence to the suggestion that the Space Wolves adhere to the more controlled recruitment and gene-harvesting processes decreed in the Codex Astartes. It would seem odd to reference them as an example in this article when they were actually using an entirely different process altogether.

[Captain Idaho]

The Space Wolves might ignore the principles laid out in the Codex guiding Space Marines on their way of making war, but are most certainly a Chapter, as they have never been referred to as a Legion in even their own Codex.

 

Indeed, it was purely a point on the size of the Space Marines Chapters that the Imperial Fists, Space Wolves and Salamanders were unhappy with and they were never quoted as being unhappy with anything more.

[Marshal Rohr]

THe Space Wolves becoming a Chapter is another instance of a Legion paying 'lip service' to the breaking of the Legions. They just changed their name from Legion to Chapter, without really changing anything. Really, the Space Wolves and the Black Templars should be totally left out of any comparisons in the FAQ, as that is doomed for failure. They are the two most independent fighting forces in the galaxy, no reason to steal their thunder and force them into something they aren't. It feels forced and illegitimate.

[Legatus]

The Templars are doing it because they are sneaky, or becasue they don't care. I have no doubts at all thet they too started out as a "Chapter" and then started to grow over the millenia and just didn't bother to tell anyone about it. The Space Wolves staying at Legion strength right from the beginning but changing their names so as to appear to have conformed with regulations would be extremely underhanded, and I cannot believe Russ would have done something like that. I think he would rather have conformed to limitations he did not like rather than to pretend meeting regulations while not conforming to them at all. I think he is more that kind of guy.

[Marshal Rohr]

It would be exactly like Russ to say fine, 'I'll only have 1000 marines, but I define marines as Grey Hunters'. Black Templars still are a Chapter, but from the get go Sigismund did his own thing.

[Legatus]

It would be exactly like Russ to say fine, 'I'll only have 1000 marines, but I define marines as Grey Hunters'.

I don't find that to be "exactly like Russ" at all. He would probably kick any Wolf who did any such "getting around responsibilities and finding loopholes" lawyering out of the Legion/Chapter personally.

[Captain Idaho]

Well the proof is the fact the Space Wolves were split into the Wolf Brothers, so they undoubtably turned into a Chapter approximately the size of a normal Chapter (probably a little bigger). Why would they split but maintain their size?

 

I do agree we should barely refer to non-Codex chapters here, it will jsut get to complex!

[Marshal Rohr]

It would be exactly like Russ to say fine, 'I'll only have 1000 marines, but I define marines as Grey Hunters'.

I don't find that to be "exactly like Russ" at all. He would probably kick any Wolf who did any such "getting around responsibilities and finding loopholes" lawyering out of the Legion/Chapter personally.

 

There you go again, Russ has no other responsibilities aside from loyalty to the Emperor. No primar h has any responsibilty to any other Primarch and to imply different invalidates this whole project.

 

 

Well the proof is the fact the Space Wolves were split into the Wolf Brothers, so they undoubtably turned into a Chapter approximately the size of a normal Chapter (probably a little bigger). Why would they split but maintain their size?

 

I do agree we should barely refer to non-Codex chapters here, it will jsut get to complex!

 

Cpt. Idaho agrees, can we get any more contributors to weigh in?

[Brother Pariah]

Marshall2 Crusaders: What source says that the Space Wolves are Legion-sized? The only source I have that gives a size is the old army cards from 2nd edition Epic, which imply a somewhat larger-than-normal Chapter.

[Marshal Rohr]

Space Wolves were always a smaller Legion. After taking a beating at Prospero, going through the Scouring, and losing 1000+ members to the Wolf Brothers, it is easily concluded that they could have only had anywhere from 1500-2000 marines left. If you are using the 10,000 Marines per Legion rules (which is what all the cool kids use these days), it isnt a stretch to see them literally continuing to be a Legion that just fell into Chapter sized numbers through attrition.

[Brother Pariah]

So they're a Legion that calls itself a Chapter, and is Chapter-sized. Uh huh.

[Marshal Rohr]

They are the Space Wolves, anything else is just sunshine and roses.

[Captain Idaho]

Seems like a moot point really! The name of their organisation matters not, they are the approximate size the Imperium wanted it's Space Marines (or at least within tolerable levels.

 

They are either a Chapter, or a Legion the size of a Chapter, it achieves the same goal! :lol:

[Walter Payton]

Seems like a moot point really! The name of their organisation matters not, they are the approximate size the Imperium wanted it's Space Marines (or at least within tolerable levels.

 

Come to the Liber Astartes sometime-people often use 'oh well, the Wolves do it' as an excuse, but that doesn't cut the mustard. They are a chaprer of legend-they can get away with stuff. For instance, the Imperial Fists have Phalanx, a Gothic-Class Battleship and Naval torpedo boats. The Wolves, should Will King be believed, have at least two Retributor battleships. Do the Fire Hawks, or the Star Phantoms? Noooooo.

 

My point is, comparing non-Codex chapters (or chapters with a significant divergence in the aspect of discussion) is worthless. Keep the Wolves out of it, they add nothing. As for the Wolves's size, well, they have at least 1200 men, if each company numbers 100 marines (which we can assume they do, roughly), plus another, say, 50 or so for the Company of the Great Wolf, gives us 1250, plus the armouries, gives us 1300 at minimum. However, we do not know the size of the Great Companies (with them not being a uniform size), so we don't know much beyond this.