Ultramarines FAQ

[Brother Pariah]

The thing is that Talasa Prime's political status is ambiguous. It is usually not described as being part of Ultramar, but it appears on some maps. It may simply be nearby to Ultramar. Ultramar is variously described of being composed of eight planets and eight systems, which is a source of a great deal of confusion, because three of the planets are in the same system.

[The Emperor's Champion]

AFAIK I've only ever seen it referred to as systems.

 

I'd imagine that in a count of planets they'd be counting capital worlds under Ultramarines control, and therefore each of the triple planets. In a count of systems they probably count the triple system once and the Inquisition system and AdMech system too, because while those capital worlds might not be under Ultramar governance the rest of the worlds in those systems probably are.

[Walter Payton]

Q: Are the Ultramarines presented in background as being the perfect chapter, even to the point where other non-Roboute Guilliman successors consider themselves inferior to them?

[Brother Pariah]

Sorry I haven't been keeping up with this project; I've been absolutely swamped for the last month! I'll try to get to it soon, but I can't make any promises yet.

[Legatus]

Q: Are the Ultramarines presented in background as being the perfect chapter, even to the point where other non-Roboute Guilliman successors consider themselves inferior to them?

A: They are not exactly being described as "perfect", but they are sometimes described with definitive terms. They are, for example, described in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines as "the oldest and most famous of all the Codex Chapters" (p. 9) and as being the preeminent Chapter among the Primogenitor Chapters (the Ultramarine Successors) (p. 14). They are also said to be the paragons of the Adeptus Astartes above all others (p. 27, Imperial Fists entry).

In the 5th Edition Rulebook the Ultramarines are described as "the exemplars of Space Marines, the purest and noblest of all of the Adeptus Astartes" (p. 134).

In older sources, namely the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, they had even been described as "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters", and as being unmatched in loyalty, ferocity, faith and valour.

And while this may suggest that other Chapters are inferior, and while other Chapters are described as aspiring to the example of the Ultramarines, the other Chapters are not described as perceiving themselves as inferior. A lot of Chapters diverge from the Codex Astartes for one reason or another. Some Chapters do it because of their own traditions. These would certainly not then perceive that as an inferiority. Other Chapters have no choice and may not completely adhere to the Codex doctrines because of unfortunate circumstances. These Chapters, even if they perceived a difference in performance between themselves and the Ultramarines (or any other Chapter really), would probably just put that down to the circumstances in question, and not to an inherent inferiority. So either way, whether the Chapter is not completely Codex adherent out of choice, or because they had no choice, they will probably not worry about not meeting all the standards of the Ultramarines, even if they would see that as a standard worthy to aspire to.

[Walter Payton]

Q: Are the Ultramarines presented in background as being the perfect chapter, even to the point where other non-Roboute Guilliman successors consider themselves inferior to them?

A: They are not exactly being described as "perfect", but they are sometimes described with definitive terms. They are, for example, described in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines as "the oldest and most famous of all the Codex Chapters" (p. 9) and as being the preeminent Chapter among the Primogenitor Chapters (the Ultramarine Successors) (p. 14). They are also said to be the paragons of the Adeptus Astartes above all others (p. 27, Imperial Fists entry).

In the 5th Edition Rulebook the Ultramarines are described as "the exemplars of Space Marines, the purest and noblest of all of the Adeptus Astartes" (p. 134).

In older sources, namely the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, they had even been described as "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters", and as being unmatched in loyalty, ferocity, faith and valour.

And while this may suggest that other Chapters are inferior, and while other Chapters are described as aspiring to the example of the Ultramarines, the other Chapters are not described as perceiving themselves as inferior. A lot of Chapters diverge from the Codex Astartes for one reason or another. Some Chapters do it because of their own traditions. These would certainly not then perceive that as an inferiority. Other Chapters have no choice and may not completely adhere to the Codex doctrines because of unfortunate circumstances. These Chapters, even if they perceived a difference in performance between themselves and the Ultramarines (or any other Chapter really), would probably just put that down to the circumstances in question, and not to an inherent inferiority. So either way, whether the Chapter is not completely Codex adherent out of choice, or because they had no choice, they will probably not worry about not meeting all the standards of the Ultramarines, even if they would see that as a standard worthy to aspire to.

 

Excellant reply.

[Octavulg]

described as aspiring to the example of the Ultramarines, the other Chapters are not described as perceiving themselves as inferior.

 

It is implicit within the term "aspire" that what you are aspiring too is superior to what you are now (or at least that you perceive it to be so).

 

Of course, with the various excerpts of the Codex we've now seen, I'd argue that being Codex adherent is not as impressive as it once was. ;)

[Ktan]

This came up in the 'what Calgar thinks of the Codex' thread. Phalanx13 asked why TWV's were anti-codex, so I wrote this explanation.

 

What's the deal with Tyrannic War Veterans? Aren't they against the Codex Astartes?

 

TWVs are 'anti-codex' for two reasons:

1. Specialised unit designed for engaging Tyranids.

2. Extensively trained against only one sort of foe (also implies that Ultramarines are specifically an enemy of the Tyranids)

 

Reason 1 is anti-Codex because it ignores the organisational doctrines of the Codex Astartes. If you read the C:SM entries for Veteran squads (Sternguard and Vanguard), those are the 'allowed' power armour squad types. That's how all Codex chapters are expected to organise their Veterans.

 

TWV's would be a third squad type. They are also specialised for fighting Tyranids. Specialisation to such an extent is against the ideals of the Codex. Marine squads are supposed to be able to be flexible.

 

Reason 2 is similar to the second part of reason 1. Training too much against Tyranids basically gives Ultramarines a preference for fighting Tyranids. Space Marines are supposed to be able to fight Orks, Traitors, Eldar, Necrons, and a multitude of other foes. Therefore, it can handicap them if they've primarly trained in fighting against Tyranids.

 

The 5th Ed C:SM shows is that 1. is no longer a problem. The TWV unit no longer exists. However, Calgar has (under extenuating circumstances) allowed 2. to prevail in the 1st Company. This is not quite as bad as before, but it does have its drawbacks. For now, it seems to be allowed to appease Cassius and his followers. Throwing out the Veterans who follow Cassius would be a bad move both politically and also because that's half the Chapter Veterans gone.

[Legatus]

I had previously written this about the TWVs:

 

 

Q: Does the introduction of such things as the Tyrannic War Veterans and the Seditio Opprimere mean that the Ultramarines have begun to violate the Codex Astartes?

 

A: By their very own description, yes, the Tyrannic War Veterans are a violation of the Codex Astartes. But the Ultramarines decided that it is ok in this instance, according to the Tyrannic War Veterans' background, as for one thing the Ultramarines were in dire need of a full 1st Company, and also because of their deep hatred for the Tyranids.

 

The Ultramarines are still also described as strict followers and paragon Chapter of the Codex Astartes, however, so currently it is basically up to the players which of these two mutually exclusive pieces of background they decide to go by. The Ultramarines are either the paragon of Codex Chapters, with no special units, or they have Tyrannic War Veterans, thereby being less Codex conform than the Imperial Fists or the Raven Guard. Both versions are supported in the 4th and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines.

[Ktan]

I figured since someone specifically asked about the TWVs, it was perhaps worth at least posting about them in more detail in the thread.

[Captain Idaho]

I think we should mention that the TWVs have been modified somewhat, becoming a faction relevant to the mindset of Ultramarines rather than an actual stand alone unit. 4th to 5th edition Codex books.

[Walter Payton]

Q: Does the Ultramarine's rigid adherence to the Codex Astartes adversely affect their tactical insight, stifling any possible flair, and forcing them to conform to ten thousand year old dictates? Is not the exile of Uriel Ventris and Pasanius Lysane for deviance an example of this?

 

In short, no. The Codex is two things. First, it is an organisational guideline for Space Marine chapters. Whilst chapters are free to deviate from this guideline to whatever extent they see fit -the Night Watch have eleven Battle Companies (Codex: Eye of Terror, pg 30) and the Exorcists two Scout Companies (Codex: Space Marines, pg 27)-, they must conform loosely to the limit of one thousand Battle-Brothers (indeed this is the only rule actively enforced). It also gives extensive guidelines on recruiting, giving rise to the practices we see today (Index Astartes I, p g12).

 

Secondly, the CA is a book of tactical recommendations. Whilst it is up to individual chapters to decide to what extent they will adopt these, many elect to use it. An obvious exception would be the Space Wolves, who use it as metaphorical lavatory paper. With regards to the Ultramarines, the recommendations of the Codex are not stifling tactical flair. Although they do rigidly adhere to it's recommendations (they wrote it!), they are just that: recommendations. The Ultramarines are quite quite capable of displaying tactical adaptiveness. An example would be the initial attacks on Hive Fleet Behemoth in the First Tyrannic War.

 

Codex doctrine proved inneffective. So the Ultramarines improvised new tactics on the spot, successfully holding off the Hive Fleet until reinforcements from Battlefleet Tempestus arrived and destroyed the Tyranids in space. It is quite clear from the above example, and others (such as Marneus Calgar's masterful defence of Orar's Sepulchre) that the Ultramarines are more than capable of flair, and of building on Guilimans work.

 

"The Codex is more than a book of organizational advice (though it is that). It's more than general tactical precepts. It's more than accounts of battles. It's more than careful analyses of enemy tactics. It is the life's work of countless Imperial soldiers, philosophers and military scholars. It has been improved for ten thousand years."

Octavulg

 

He's right, you know.

 

On Uriel and Pasanius. Uriel Ventris and Pasanius Lysane did not commit a crime of tactics, but rather abandoned their men to participate in a revenge/testosterone driven Deathwatch strike. It is counter to the Codex (and most accepted M2 military philosophy) to abandon your men for the sake of what is essentially vainglory.

[Cptn. Palladorus]

and the Exorcists two Scout Companies

Three.