Pulse Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I thought that was obvious even before the HH series. I guess it wasn't for everyone! :woot: Blame superhero comic books. I grew up watching bullets ricochet on skin and spandex. =) Hahaha :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3100594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Also, those suggestion the legions were fully destroyed. I highly doubt that you can truely confirm that you killed exactly 203.123. marines and one primarch, though the latter is easier. If it was indeed a big battle, there'd be survivers, Istvan V had survivers, then anything can have survivers. Survivers who fled and who seek revenge. Its more likely they weren't actually truely evil. Secondly, it wouldn't fit the mentality-reality check every legion goes through in the HH-novels. That marines actually fight marines. I have only one response to this... "Kneel, Lorgar". It wouldn't have taken a legion to kill a legion...just the Emperor of Mankind. Before the Emperor sunk a huge portion of his power into his secret machinations below Terra, he was an absolute beast. He forced an entire Legion...I repeat... an entire freakin' Legion, to kneel in the dust of their greatest failure. Had he wanted to, the Emperor could've snuffed the entire Word Bearers Legion right there on the spot. Argel Tal brings up this very point in Betrayer, when arguing with Khârn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3100595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Thanks for making the waiting all the harder :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3100658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I thought that was obvious even before the HH series. I guess it wasn't for everyone! ;) Blame superhero comic books. I grew up watching bullets ricochet on skin and spandex. =) Same here, but my hero of choice was the Punisher. To hell with bullets bouncing off, just take the hit and kill 'em anyway. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3100915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I remember Corax being hit by a fusilade of Heavy Stubber bullets on bare skin and it didn't even bruise him, so I really don't think being shot in the head is necessarily terminal for a Primarch. It's not always terminal for us in real life! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3101268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 There is a hint in Fear to Tread that perhaps it is a gene-seed flaw which lead to their destruction. In the extract in H&B 21 Sanguinius is talking to Horus about the flaw which has started to appear in some of his Legion troops and why he has hidden the fact from the Emperor. He goes on to say: Sanguinius rounded on Horus, his seraphic features hardening. ‘You know the reason!’ he answered with a snarl. ‘I will not be responsible for the erasure of the Blood Angels from Imperial history. I will not have a third empty plinth beneath the roof of the Hegemon as my Legion’s only memorial!’ Christian Dunn. Hammer and Bolter: Issue 21 (Kindle Locations 997-999). Black Library. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3101710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqui Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 There is a hint in Fear to Tread that perhaps it is a gene-seed flaw which lead to their destruction. In the extract in H&B 21 Sanguinius is talking to Horus about the flaw which has started to appear in some of his Legion troops and why he has hidden the fact from the Emperor. He goes on to say: Sanguinius rounded on Horus, his seraphic features hardening. ‘You know the reason!’ he answered with a snarl. ‘I will not be responsible for the erasure of the Blood Angels from Imperial history. I will not have a third empty plinth beneath the roof of the Hegemon as my Legion’s only memorial!’ Christian Dunn. Hammer and Bolter: Issue 21 (Kindle Locations 997-999). Black Library. If that is the case, I think I'd rather have been destroyed by an enemy of the IoM. To have something fail within you and not be able to fight it (or not to be able to have a change of beating it), must be the most galling thing a Marine or Primarch could face....A faceless enemy that could strike you down with no warning whatsoever ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3101789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I remember Corax being hit by a fusilade of Heavy Stubber bullets on bare skin and it didn't even bruise him, so I really don't think being shot in the head is necessarily terminal for a Primarch. It's not always terminal for us in real life! When was that? Must have been from second edition or summat. As for being shot in the head, its extremely rare for anyone to survive a battlefield gunshot wound to the head (by head we mean the areas such as Temporal, Frontal, Sphenoid and Parietal) as the treatment available isn't up to the standard to save life quickly enough - even for a Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3101792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Every once in a while, when I want to remind myself that Space Marines aren't all that uber, I read Punisher MAX... @ADB: In your meetings with other authors to discuss the Heresy, was there any discussion about the Emperor's...say...'power level'? I ask this because making one hundred thousand Space Marines (or does it have anything to do with the Word Bearers' pre-disposition to obey?) kneel with a thought is pretty much the epitome of power. He'll have to do a lot of holding back (and he hasn't exactly shown to be that kind of person) for Horus to land a blow on him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3101860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 There is a hint in Fear to Tread that perhaps it is a gene-seed flaw which lead to their destruction. In the extract in H&B 21 Sanguinius is talking to Horus about the flaw which has started to appear in some of his Legion troops and why he has hidden the fact from the Emperor. He goes on to say: Sanguinius rounded on Horus, his seraphic features hardening. ‘You know the reason!’ he answered with a snarl. ‘I will not be responsible for the erasure of the Blood Angels from Imperial history. I will not have a third empty plinth beneath the roof of the Hegemon as my Legion’s only memorial!’ Christian Dunn. Hammer and Bolter: Issue 21 (Kindle Locations 997-999). Black Library. If that is the case, I think I'd rather have been destroyed by an enemy of the IoM. To have something fail within you and not be able to fight it (or not to be able to have a change of beating it), must be the most galling thing a Marine or Primarch could face....A faceless enemy that could strike you down with no warning whatsoever :lol: Magnus was in the same boat with his boys. That why he made the secreat deal he did. He just wasn't experianced enough to know he was getting played. Every once in a while, when I want to remind myself that Space Marines aren't all that uber, I read Punisher MAX... @ADB: In your meetings with other authors to discuss the Heresy, was there any discussion about the Emperor's...say...'power level'? I ask this because making one hundred thousand Space Marines (or does it have anything to do with the Word Bearers' pre-disposition to obey?) kneel with a thought is pretty much the epitome of power. He'll have to do a lot of holding back (and he hasn't exactly shown to be that kind of person) for Horus to land a blow on him. Unless he wants to be hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3102066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I remember Corax being hit by a fusilade of Heavy Stubber bullets on bare skin and it didn't even bruise him, so I really don't think being shot in the head is necessarily terminal for a Primarch. It's not always terminal for us in real life! When was that? Must have been from second edition or summat. As for being shot in the head, its extremely rare for anyone to survive a battlefield gunshot wound to the head (by head we mean the areas such as Temporal, Frontal, Sphenoid and Parietal) as the treatment available isn't up to the standard to save life quickly enough - even for a Primarch. Actually it was in Deliverance Lost. Oh, and I know it is extremely rare for someone to survive being shot in the head, my example was there was a possibility of survival for humans on this planet, whilst Primarchs are like a 1,000 times the power and survivability of a mere human. Regardless, yeah, Deliverance Lost shows bullets bouncing off Corax's skin body so I don't think it would be any different bouncing off his forehead too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3102070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Actually it was in Deliverance Lost. Oh, and I know it is extremely rare for someone to survive being shot in the head, my example was there was a possibility of survival for humans on this planet, whilst Primarchs are like a 1,000 times the power and survivability of a mere human. Regardless, yeah, Deliverance Lost shows bullets bouncing off Corax's skin body so I don't think it would be any different bouncing off his forehead too. Funny how one story can change peoples views on things isn't it? Especially as that sort of thing isn't said anywhere else. Sounds like proper BS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3102264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Every once in a while, when I want to remind myself that Space Marines aren't all that uber, I read Punisher MAX... Hell. Yes. @ADB: In your meetings with other authors to discuss the Heresy, was there any discussion about the Emperor's...say...'power level'? I ask this because making one hundred thousand Space Marines (or does it have anything to do with the Word Bearers' pre-disposition to obey?) kneel with a thought is pretty much the epitome of power. He'll have to do a lot of holding back (and he hasn't exactly shown to be that kind of person) for Horus to land a blow on him. See, I was of the assumption that the Emperor had sunk a ridiculous amount of his power into building the Golden Throne / Human Webway, and he was maybe, maybe, at a fraction of his strength when he faced Horus, having had no time to recuperate. Abnett kinda touched on it in KNF, when Perrson notices a familiar golden glow, that wasn't nearly as bright as before, on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3102796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Every once in a while, when I want to remind myself that Space Marines aren't all that uber, I read Punisher MAX... Hell. Yes. @ADB: In your meetings with other authors to discuss the Heresy, was there any discussion about the Emperor's...say...'power level'? I ask this because making one hundred thousand Space Marines (or does it have anything to do with the Word Bearers' pre-disposition to obey?) kneel with a thought is pretty much the epitome of power. He'll have to do a lot of holding back (and he hasn't exactly shown to be that kind of person) for Horus to land a blow on him. See, I was of the assumption that the Emperor had sunk a ridiculous amount of his power into building the Golden Throne / Human Webway, and he was maybe, maybe, at a fraction of his strength when he faced Horus, having had no time to recuperate. Abnett kinda touched on it in KNF, when Perrson notices a familiar golden glow, that wasn't nearly as bright as before, on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit. He was also holding back because he didn't want to kill the first among his children. I mean, if it were you, and your FAVORITE son turned, would you want to kill him? Or would you hesitate? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3102920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Actually it was in Deliverance Lost. Oh, and I know it is extremely rare for someone to survive being shot in the head, my example was there was a possibility of survival for humans on this planet, whilst Primarchs are like a 1,000 times the power and survivability of a mere human. Regardless, yeah, Deliverance Lost shows bullets bouncing off Corax's skin body so I don't think it would be any different bouncing off his forehead too. Funny how one story can change peoples views on things isn't it? Especially as that sort of thing isn't said anywhere else. Sounds like proper BS. Show me a quote where it says a single bullet can hurt a Primarch then? We have a plasma blast stunning Horus, but it's not quite the same as a bolter round! As far as I know, the only reference to this issue is in Deliverance Lost, so any other position was based upon assumption. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3103175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 He was also holding back because he didn't want to kill the first among his children. I mean, if it were you, and your FAVORITE son turned, would you want to kill him? Or would you hesitate? After that son had been directly responsible for killing one of my other sons, and had just murdered another, was attempting to annihilate the human race for whom I am responsible for, am the only being in existance that understands the true nature of Chaos aaaaand I had already shown no issue with ordering the death of wayward sons in the past (Thunder Warriors, Thousand Sons, possibly two other entire Legions).... then yeah I would, with no hesitation. It wasn't like the Emperor ever won the Awesome Dad of the Millenium Award. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3103199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Show me a quote where it says a single bullet can hurt a Primarch then? We have a plasma blast stunning Horus, but it's not quite the same as a bolter round! As far as I know, the only reference to this issue is in Deliverance Lost, so any other position was based upon assumption. There are no quotes about a single bullet hurting a Primarch, but your said bullets not bullet, still though if Omegon can get stabbed through his secondary heart by a Lucifier Black with a sword while in his powered armour (although please save me from your fanciful theory that Alpharius and Omegon are not Primarchs) then a bullet is more than likely going to pierce the bare flesh of a Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3103587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 He was also holding back because he didn't want to kill the first among his children. I mean, if it were you, and your FAVORITE son turned, would you want to kill him? Or would you hesitate? /snip/ It wasn't like the Emperor ever won the Awesome Dad of the Millenium Award. Good point! I kind of like the idea that maybe he was "low on power" from working on his Webway, it goes a little ways towards explaining a few things, as has already been mentioned. I could think maybe Horus backed by "all 4 gods" was just that strong but if it was pointed out the Emperor's light was lessened then the weakened part makes some sense. Although I have kind of felt that he was indeed holding back a bit. Maybe that is the point of the Lore anymore, since "all and none of it is true" we're not meant to just "get it." Back to the Lost and Forgotten. In Horus Rising when he seems to be transported back to the time the Primarchs were being grown in their tubes he damages one of them. I have to wonder if maybe this wasn't one of the those 2? If so, I'd guess that one simply didn't survive or was the one that suffered too heavy of a mutation and was "put down" for it. Maybe the other found some serious Religion and refused to give it up and the Emperor had him "Enlightened." ;-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3103596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Show me a quote where it says a single bullet can hurt a Primarch then? We have a plasma blast stunning Horus, but it's not quite the same as a bolter round! As far as I know, the only reference to this issue is in Deliverance Lost, so any other position was based upon assumption. There are no quotes about a single bullet hurting a Primarch, but your said bullets not bullet, still though if Omegon can get stabbed through his secondary heart by a Lucifier Black with a sword while in his powered armour (although please save me from your fanciful theory that Alpharius and Omegon are not Primarchs) then a bullet is more than likely going to pierce the bare flesh of a Primarch. Except it wasn't necessarily Omegon or Alpharius who was stabbed by a Lucifer Black. It was that Ranko fella :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3103633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 In First Heretic: SPOILERS When the Custodian points his lance at Lorgar's head, he's pretty sure a shot will blow up the Primarch's brains. Lorgar says it isn't certain, but it does sound like bluffing, in my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3103661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 So speculation of something that didn't happen? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3103687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 He was also holding back because he didn't want to kill the first among his children. I mean, if it were you, and your FAVORITE son turned, would you want to kill him? Or would you hesitate? After that son had been directly responsible for killing one of my other sons, and had just murdered another, was attempting to annihilate the human race for whom I am responsible for, am the only being in existance that understands the true nature of Chaos aaaaand I had already shown no issue with ordering the death of wayward sons in the past (Thunder Warriors, Thousand Sons, possibly two other entire Legions).... then yeah I would, with no hesitation. It wasn't like the Emperor ever won the Awesome Dad of the Millenium Award. Immediately after Horus killed someone who rushed in to save the Emperor, he stopped hesitating, and he obliterated Horus with a single thought. He was so scary that even the Gods abandoned Horus. Every story I have read had said it was hesitation because he did not want to believe his favored son had turned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3103748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 So speculation of something that didn't happen? :P Ha, I see what you mean =) But the only way that a bolter round to the head wouldn't kill a Primarch is if they can re-knit the wound (and, bolter rounds being explosive, it's a pretty big wound) fast enough. It's simply too big a projectile with too wide a damage radius... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3103797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Agreed. If it penetrates their skin of course. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3103943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerBarchen Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 He was also holding back because he didn't want to kill the first among his children. I mean, if it were you, and your FAVORITE son turned, would you want to kill him? Or would you hesitate? After that son had been directly responsible for killing one of my other sons, and had just murdered another, was attempting to annihilate the human race for whom I am responsible for, am the only being in existance that understands the true nature of Chaos aaaaand I had already shown no issue with ordering the death of wayward sons in the past (Thunder Warriors, Thousand Sons, possibly two other entire Legions).... then yeah I would, with no hesitation. It wasn't like the Emperor ever won the Awesome Dad of the Millenium Award. Immediately after Horus killed someone who rushed in to save the Emperor, he stopped hesitating, and he obliterated Horus with a single thought. He was so scary that even the Gods abandoned Horus. Every story I have read had said it was hesitation because he did not want to believe his favored son had turned. Maybe the Emperor intended to die? From Outcast Dead we already know he knows hes going to die? That brings up another question that bothers me, what was the Point of Outcast Dead? o.O (apart from being an excellently written story) Why is the Emperor knowing he'll die such a big deal? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/8/#findComment-3103994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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