The Lost Primarchs

[Shotbreak]

Johnson is in stasis kept hidden by the watchers on the bottom of Rock, The Dark Angels Homeworld/Fortress where he heals his wounds from his fight and waits to be awaken once more..... By Cypher! Go Rise of Tau.

 

Shadow

 

 

Awesome, another ROT reader, Cypher is CRAZY :P

 

Like the idea about Dalia, tragic tale in the making when it comes to being Horus's lover B) , but you have to remember that the lost primarchs were already gone before the heresy broke out.

 

Legion II: Grey Knights. There is no record of their founding, except that they were ONE OF THE FIRST CHAPTERS FORMED

 

Emphasis on "CHAPTER". Yes, they were one of the first chapters formed (possibly) which are all 2nd founding and beyond, remember that the 1st founding were made up of LEGIONS, the difference being of course that legions are 10,000+ strong with nearly no restrictions and chapters were only 1000 strong and that they were implemented in the 2nd founding AFTER the Horus Heresy.

[ICHD?]

1-the emperor may have been godlike but he still made mistakes (eg. the burning of prospero)

 

He might have made mistakes, but the Burning of Prospero was not one of them. The Thousand Sons were irredeemably corrupt, and had defied (twice) the Emperor's direct instructions. Besides, the lot of them were already being manipulated by Tzeentch. The Space Wolves simply accelerated the process.

 

I must disagree. Yes, Magnus went against the word of The Emperor, but he did so to protect The Emperor. Consider this: you are stood near on a train station platform and for one reason and another you are ordered not to speak or you will be in a shed-load of trouble. You see a small child wandering close to the edge of the platform, crazed psychopath about to push the child onto the rails, and a train is approaching. Would you say nothing and let the child die? Methinks not. No, Magnus did what any loyal subject of The Imperium would do: he used his only means of communication to warn The Emperor that Horus had betrayed him, so if you think about it, who REALLY betrayed who here?

[Deus de Mortalis]

1-the emperor may have been godlike but he still made mistakes (eg. the burning of prospero)

 

He might have made mistakes, but the Burning of Prospero was not one of them. The Thousand Sons were irredeemably corrupt, and had defied (twice) the Emperor's direct instructions. Besides, the lot of them were already being manipulated by Tzeentch. The Space Wolves simply accelerated the process.

 

I must disagree. Yes, Magnus went against the word of The Emperor, but he did so to protect The Emperor. Consider this: you are stood near on a train station platform and for one reason and another you are ordered not to speak or you will be in a shed-load of trouble. You see a small child wandering close to the edge of the platform, crazed psychopath about to push the child onto the rails, and a train is approaching. Would you say nothing and let the child die? Methinks not. No, Magnus did what any loyal subject of The Imperium would do: he used his only means of communication to warn The Emperor that Horus had betrayed him, so if you think about it, who REALLY betrayed who here?

 

Magnus thought he was protecting the emperor, but he wasn't. In one of the Horus Heresy art books, the emperor states that the 'warning' was actually an extremely powerful psychic attack by the Chaos gods. Magnus was corrupted by chaos by that point but he didn't know it, while the Emperor did. The attack had something to do with the webway portal being constructed in the palace basement, and after the attack the Emperor had to devote almost all of his attention and psychic power to prevent demons from swarming in.

 

One interesting note also brought up by those books is that after Magnus' final warning by the Emperor against using sorcery, the Emperor states that if Magnus does not follow his instructions, he, his legion, and Prospero will be destroyed and all records of their existence will be expunged. To me it seems that maybe something like this happened to "missing" legions. Also, and this is just speculation, maybe only the emperor had the power to erase the existence and memory of a primarch and legion, and after Magnus' betrayal, the Emperor was too busy with other things and the situation too cataclysmic to erase the records of all the traitor legions.

[calgar101]

Lightning Kind/Dark Tower doesn't Malcador say how their tragedies should have been warnings or something along those lines?

[Sanctimonius]

Approaching this entirely from a fluff pov:)

 

I would say that there's a reason the Heretical legions haven't been expunged from official records - the Imperium still has to fight them from time to time. If there wasn't any information on the enemy you're about to fight, you're at a handicap. Since the Death Guard, the World Eaters, the Night Lords are still running around and all in the the Imperium's respective grill, Terra is still keeping tabs on them. Now, if a legion had turned rogue before the Heresy and was completely destroyed, there would be no need for Terra to even admit to their existence - maybe they would delete all records of these legions...? Before the Horus Heresy books going into so much detail, this could very well have been an explanation for these legions - they both turned rogue, were wiped out in the Heresy either by accident or Loyalist design, and the High Lords deleted all record of them. Maybe if a current Chaos legion was later wiped out entirely, they too would be deleted?

 

As others have pointed out before, Grey Knights are a chapter - there's a big difference between a chapter and a legion. Personally I took The Flight of the Eisenstein to suggest that Garro and his crew became the beginnings of the Grey Knights - just because they are all psykers now doesn't mean they were from the very beginning, and the Imperium would have needed all the daemonic experts they could get a hold of in the hectic days immediately after the Heresy. I like this explanation - there's a small link to the original legions who turned rogue and a link to those who remained loyal. Makes the sacrifice of the loyal marines mean something.

 

My personal theory only covers one of the two legions. This Primarch was one of the last ones to be found, far from Terra and well into the Great Crusade. The legions all fought with the Emperor and were given to their Primarchs as and when they were discovered - Garro is torn between his loyalty to the Emperor and to his Primarch, as he fought with the Emperor longer than with Mortarion. Likewise, most of this legion knew and loved the Emperor and identified less with their new leader. This Primarch was not convinced of the ideals of the Imperium - he landed on a world where the humans lived with an indigenous race of aliens quite peacefully, but were declared xenos by the Imperium due to practices the Emperor deemed unacceptable. The Primarch grows increasingly disillusioned with the Emperor and his ideals as the Crusade progresses, finding the endless slaughter and automatic hatred of almost all xenos abhorrent. Finally this Primarch breaks from the Emperor and refuses his orders, leading to a schism within the legion. Those from Terra side with the Emperor, those recruited during the crusade side with the Primarch. After a bitter and fierce struggle, the Terran faction overwhelms the Primarch and his men, killing them. The Emperor cannot bring himself to forgive the legion for killing his child, but cannot destroy them for the love they have shown him. Instead they are sentenced to eternal crusade, a crusade they continue for millenia. The Emperor is shamed by his child and orders all record of him and his legion deleted - effectively the legion no longer exists anyway.

 

The remnants of the legion operate far from the centres of the Imperium, keeping to isolated worlds and wars, dropping in and out of combat zones in an effort to maximise their contribution and minimise their contact with other Imperial forces who might ask too many questions.

[Hiram]

One thing that I found interesting about the conversation between Malcador and Dorn was that it is implied that if they did want the aid of the two lost legions they would actually be able to get it.... they must have still been around somewhere but perhaps without their Primarch still being alive and possibly in cryogenic Storage... there may be two entire Legions in storage somewhere on Terra or Mars :to:

[Iskari Meridian]

I've gone through all the posts so far and I just want to point out this link to a lost primarchs fact sheet.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

 

I know I'm a new guy to this here, but I had just hoped to send some of this along.

 

Personally I love the idea of an invisible primarch romping around, deciding to take up some place in the galaxy and simply "disappear" from everything. Who knows how many ships, civilizations, and other-such has simply gone missing over 10K years of bureaucracy and rebuilding since the heresy. Untraceable marines who make their way from some completely forbidden portion of the galaxy. But since it mentions "separate tragedies" for those primarchs... I might just speculate that this one's power made him possibly "fade out" from existence, taking his legion with him.

 

*shrugs* just my own set of speculation.

[Captain Idaho]

Guys, check out the extract of A D-B's forthcoming novel. It talks about Lorgar's Legion being the 17th Legion, but also specifies there are only 18 Legions.

 

So whatever happened they aren't around any more, at least not in the sense they can be counted upon.

[Rider-75]

I've gone through all the posts so far and I just want to point out this link to a lost primarchs fact sheet.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

 

I know I'm a new guy to this here, but I had just hoped to send some of this along.

 

Personally I love the idea of an invisible primarch romping around, deciding to take up some place in the galaxy and simply "disappear" from everything. Who knows how many ships, civilizations, and other-such has simply gone missing over 10K years of bureaucracy and rebuilding since the heresy. Untraceable marines who make their way from some completely forbidden portion of the galaxy. But since it mentions "separate tragedies" for those primarchs... I might just speculate that this one's power made him possibly "fade out" from existence, taking his legion with him.

 

*shrugs* just my own set of speculation.

 

"invisibility" was an ability of Corax. not true invisibility, but the ability to "disappear" and make people not see him with their eyes, and to ignore reading s on equipment as "glitches".

source: raven's flight audio drama.

[ICHD?]

1-the emperor may have been godlike but he still made mistakes (eg. the burning of prospero)

 

He might have made mistakes, but the Burning of Prospero was not one of them. The Thousand Sons were irredeemably corrupt, and had defied (twice) the Emperor's direct instructions. Besides, the lot of them were already being manipulated by Tzeentch. The Space Wolves simply accelerated the process.

 

I must disagree. Yes, Magnus went against the word of The Emperor, but he did so to protect The Emperor. Consider this: you are stood near on a train station platform and for one reason and another you are ordered not to speak or you will be in a shed-load of trouble. You see a small child wandering close to the edge of the platform, crazed psychopath about to push the child onto the rails, and a train is approaching. Would you say nothing and let the child die? Methinks not. No, Magnus did what any loyal subject of The Imperium would do: he used his only means of communication to warn The Emperor that Horus had betrayed him, so if you think about it, who REALLY betrayed who here?

 

Magnus thought he was protecting the emperor, but he wasn't. In one of the Horus Heresy art books, the emperor states that the 'warning' was actually an extremely powerful psychic attack by the Chaos gods. Magnus was corrupted by chaos by that point but he didn't know it, while the Emperor did. The attack had something to do with the webway portal being constructed in the palace basement, and after the attack the Emperor had to devote almost all of his attention and psychic power to prevent demons from swarming in.

 

One interesting note also brought up by those books is that after Magnus' final warning by the Emperor against using sorcery, the Emperor states that if Magnus does not follow his instructions, he, his legion, and Prospero will be destroyed and all records of their existence will be expunged. To me it seems that maybe something like this happened to "missing" legions. Also, and this is just speculation, maybe only the emperor had the power to erase the existence and memory of a primarch and legion, and after Magnus' betrayal, the Emperor was too busy with other things and the situation too cataclysmic to erase the records of all the traitor legions.

 

IIRC There was a passage in one of the books that said there are touches of The Warp in all psykers, how could The Emperor discriminate between an attack by Chaos, the stuff The Warp is made of, and a message using The Warp

[infinite_array]

Emphasis on "CHAPTER". Yes, they were one of the first chapters formed (possibly) which are all 2nd founding and beyond, remember that the 1st founding were made up of LEGIONS, the difference being of course that legions are 10,000+ strong with nearly no restrictions and chapters were only 1000 strong and that they were implemented in the 2nd founding AFTER the Horus Heresy.

 

About the Grey Knights - I'd heard rumors that they were formed from the remaining Loyalist Death Guard that survived in The Flight of the Eisenstein. Is there any truth to this, or did I just hear wrong?

[Rider-75]

from what's been hinted garro and other survivers may well go on to form the orders of the inquisition.

[Culebras]

-His Daughter. Dalia (Gaia, Greek mythology, Earth Mother) ... you could say that the other 'brother' was a mutated male. A female. Swept from the imperial records for being a 'lower' for of mankind. Seeing as they do have a dark age ideal around the social structure, the high lords of Terra are all males, and most of the other important people, females always seeming to be the lower rank, then it would makes sense that they would purge the records to save face per say.

 

I find it funny that I was thinking something along a similar idea regarding the possible existence of a female primarch. Though you took it in a completely different direction that I was thinking...

 

At the gate were.... Yep, The Emperor himself, Sanginus, Rogal Dorn AND.... nobody apparently. Ok, so there were some Veterns and Marines, and such. But Would you really leave the gate completely undefended if that was what the bad guy wanted? No, you'd leave someone there to guard it while they took the fight to Horus.

 

Remember, The white scars were on Terra too, though nobody really talks about them. I guess they were to busy drinking beer and doing burn outs on their bikes.

 

I personally don't think we will ever get a concrete answer regarding the missing primarchs for the same reason GW will never come out with a single list of how many Space marine chapters there are. Its much more fun this way. That said, I would not be surprised to see teaser information with a level of ambiguity. There are alot of professional liars in the 40K universe and they might try and spin you a story that sounds just believable enough to be plausible.

 

The one thing that makes me sad is that creating lost primarch chapters have become so cliche now a days. Whenever someone says, I came up with an idea for the lost primarch, I almost feel the urge to roll my eyes because they all seem the same. Such in such was corrupted, such and such grew up on a feral world. Sigmar, Lost chaos god. ETC. I think everybody does consider it at some point or another but I haven't seen anything in a long time that didn't feel like a rehashing of some previous story line.

 

(and I am guilty of it as well. Though I'm not going to post my version here because its going on twelve pages and no one wants to read a book. If I feel like it, I'll make a post somewhere else so people can ignore it).

 

Anyway. First post here. Love this forum. Hope to post again in the future.

 

P.S. whats the best place to post info about space marine chapter ideas? I've got a couple.

[Aqui]

P.S. whats the best place to post info about space marine chapter ideas? I've got a couple.

 

Welcome to the B+C

 

If you mean you'd like to share/expand your ideas for you own Chapter(s), then Liber Astartes is the place ;)

[Deus de Mortalis]

IIRC There was a passage in one of the books that said there are touches of The Warp in all psykers, how could The Emperor discriminate between an attack by Chaos, the stuff The Warp is made of, and a message using The Warp

 

I couldn't tell ya, but one dead giveaway would be all the demons the that were suddenly trying to get in through the uncompleted webway portal. I don't really remember much else and it could take me forever to find that story again.

[Captain Idaho]

IIRC There was a passage in one of the books that said there are touches of The Warp in all psykers, how could The Emperor discriminate between an attack by Chaos, the stuff The Warp is made of, and a message using The Warp

 

I couldn't tell ya, but one dead giveaway would be all the demons the that were suddenly trying to get in through the uncompleted webway portal. I don't really remember much else and it could take me forever to find that story again.

 

Remember also that the Emperor and Magnus were said to have been linked pyschically. Magnus understood the Emperor's mind, the Emperor understood Magnus'. That means he knew about what entity Magnus made a pact with to save his Legion.

 

And that meant he was already corrupted and his Legion certainly damned, owing their existance to a Chaos God.

[increaso]

Remember also that the Emperor and Magnus were said to have been linked pyschically. Magnus understood the Emperor's mind, the Emperor understood Magnus'. That means he knew about what entity Magnus made a pact with to save his Legion.

 

And that meant he was already corrupted and his Legion certainly damned, owing their existance to a Chaos God.

 

I fear we are straying further and further way from the titled topic.

 

However, i found it moderately strange that in a Thousand Sons (specifically in the Council of Nikea scene, but at other points to) Magnus seemed to be psychically in discourse with the Emperor, but the Emperor's actions seemed to cast doubt on this. It was almost as if Magnus was imagining that the Emperor endorsed what he was doing. Unless i missed something (which isn't unusual)

[Rik Lightstar]

I always got the impression that The Emperor only wanted to rebuke Magnus and Lorgar, he wanted to use them in his "New Galactic Order". However he went too far in telling them off, and never explained himself, leaving them bitter and resentful.

[EnigmaShadow]

Culebras, I would LOVE to know what your female primarch story would be! Send me the info when it's done. I sorta got the idea from my old Catholic school (Sorry to all religious people out there who DO believe this) But they once said and I QUOTE "Females are the deformities of mankind" Which I laughed at and it turned out I was the only one. So I sorta played on that idea I will admit. But curious to see how you had the same idea but a different approach.

 

I DO remember that there were others on terra at the time when Horus attacked, however I do remember reading that Horus would believe himself victor once he had taken the Imperial palace. Hence why so many were fighting at it's gates. Even if the white Scars WHERE at the gate, a sudden loss of what, 3 Primarch's AND the Emperor from the gate would have been a MASSIVE disadvantage at the gates, hence if Khan AND one of the 'lost' primarch's had been there, then it would make sense.

 

I know we're still getting off topic a bit here, but I still think the Thousands Sons were betrayed, if a brother killing another brother is such a shock, Magnus trying to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal and all of a sudden you have a Legion of Space Wolves dropping onto your doorstep and attacking you'd be taken by one HELL of a surprise. Magnus KNEW of the dark gods, just as the Emperor would have, and had no CHOICE but to align himself and those of his legion to it. Otherwise they'd all have been slaughtered. I suppose that would have been the noble option, but you never know. Shock makes you do some strange things.

 

Shadow

[Algrim Whitefang]

Here's some compelling evidence in regards to the II and XI Legions that I've come across while reading the HH novels:

 

 

... in the destiny it would shape for their species. They had all believed. All of them.

- Rogal Dorn, in the falls of the Kath Mandau Precinct.

-The Lightning Tower, page 8.

 

 

The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?

- Rogal Dorn, in the falls of the Kath Mandau Precinct. The Lighting Tower, p.9.

 

 

'"... Horus has three of his brother legions with him, you have your fists and thirteen others."

"Would that it were fifteen,' mused Dorn

"Do not even think it, my friend,' warned Malcador. 'They are lost to us forever."

''I know,' said Dorn

- A conversation between Rogal Dorn and Malcador in regards to the war on Mars and the Heresy, Mechanium, p.329.

 

 

So Here's What We Know So Far:

- There were two separate incidents.

- Both Legions were lost forever.

-

 

What is suggested:

- They were found during the Great Crusade.

- Both Legions would have most likely have sided with the Emperor during the Horus Heresy.

- The incidents should have acted as 'warnings'.

 

 

He stopped by the tank with XI stenciled upon it ... feeling the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass.

-False Gods, p.284

 

 

He turned and saw one tank spewing gasses and screams as it was swept from the ground.

-Possibly a reference to a 'non-lost primarch' in False Gods, p.296.

 

 

"I believe their operation and conduct should be reported to the Council of Terra, pending censure or dissolution. It wouldn't be the first time a Legion Astartes has overstepped the mark, after all."

- Chayne talking to Namatijira in Legion, p.384.

 

 

There are a few incidents this particular quote could allude to, notably the World Eaters actions on various worlds. This could also suggest that perhaps one/both of the "Missing" Legions were dissolved and expunged from all records as some form of censure for some heinous act

 

- In the Soul Drinkers novels, the geneseed, which Daenyathos claims was created when the twenty Primarchs were created; Of all twenty sons of the Emperor, two were universally despised, and both were murdered by their brothers and hacked up into thousands of tiny pieces, these pieces were used to make the first Space Marines. Whether or not this is true we can only guess...

 

Just some food for thought. What's your opinion on my take of things? I'm I sorta spot-on or am I talking out my arse?

[increaso]

Of all twenty sons of the Emperor, two were universally despised, and both were murdered by their brothers and hacked up into thousands of tiny pieces, these pieces were used to make the first Space Marines.

 

This is interesting, but it does contradict some of the other conclusions.

 

From this we could draw the following conclusions: -

 

- Uncertainty as to the loyalty of the missing legions

- Similar incidents

 

It also casts doubt on the early HH novels theme of their being shock and disbelief of brother fighting brother.

 

I would be surprised if no further hints are dropped before the end of the HH series.

[kimsmarkin]

I think you mean Nightbringer Sigmar. Karl Franz is a normal human being. Sigmar was a man of unimaginable strength, vigor, energy and charisma that he lived 200 years and founded the Empire of Warhammer Fantasy. Then it became the topic of region's official religion and is considered a god of honor and war. Others might be missing Primarch Giles le Breton, a being of power similar to that Sigmar has earned its place in Bretonnia at the same time. Personally, I think the other Primarch Be lakor. the first mortal to be tempted by chaos in the fantasy world of Warhammer, the first daemon prince.

[Rider-75]

except GW have categorically stated that fantasy and 40k are two distinct universes with similarities, and that the WHFB world DOES NOT exist in the WH40K universe.

[HandOfDorn]

I'm sure i read somewhere that each aspect of the Emperor's personality was copied into the Primarchs, so could we try and determine the two missing features?

 

What do we have so far..

 

Angron -

Horus -

Mortarion -

Lorgar -

Alpharius -

Perturabo -

Curze -

Magnus -

Fulgrim -

 

? -

? -

 

Guilliman -

Dorn -

Sanguinius -

Khan -

The Lion -

Vulkan -

Corax -

Ferrus Mannus -

Russ -

 

Please copy the above and fill in the gaps to the best of your knowledge, then we will see what we have left?

[matchbox]

No one seems to have mentioned the incident that nearly destroyed the emperors children. I can't remember specifics but it is definitely mentioned in Fulgrim. Maybe this had something to do with one of the missing legions?

 

Or maybe like Someone else mentioned they are in fact locked inside the catacombs of Mars and are unacessible due to the C'Tan roaming arounds inside? Just a thought.