The Lost Primarchs

[Purge The Weak]

Think about it, reading the HH series it becomes clear alot of worlds have chaos influences, so now your telling me that 20 primarch's landed on different worlds scattered throughout the imperuim by the gods of chaos. Wouldn't there be the slight of chance that 1 or two landed on choas worlds, maybe even joined the imperuim then true intentions became clear. Although some of them are mad, magical or generally just insane, non of the primarch's followed choas. Well till later events.

 

Was Logar under the influence of choas at ullanor or did he even go ? If so the emp couldn't tell....

[Bigger-than-Jesus]

Think about it, reading the HH series it becomes clear alot of worlds have chaos influences, so now your telling me that 20 primarch's landed on different worlds scattered throughout the imperuim by the gods of chaos. Wouldn't there be the slight of chance that 1 or two landed on choas worlds, maybe even joined the imperuim then true intentions became clear. Although some of them are mad, magical or generally just insane, non of the primarch's followed choas. Well till later events.

 

Was Logar under the influence of choas at ullanor or did he even go ? If so the emp couldn't tell....

1 or 2 did fall on Chaos worlds. The sect that raised Lorgar on Colchis worshipped chaos or something similar IIRC and Caliban was corrupted by chaos almost from the start, at least according to Fallen Angels.

[Captain Idaho]

Think about it, reading the HH series it becomes clear alot of worlds have chaos influences, so now your telling me that 20 primarch's landed on different worlds scattered throughout the imperuim by the gods of chaos. Wouldn't there be the slight of chance that 1 or two landed on choas worlds, maybe even joined the imperuim then true intentions became clear. Although some of them are mad, magical or generally just insane, non of the primarch's followed choas. Well till later events.

 

Was Logar under the influence of choas at ullanor or did he even go ? If so the emp couldn't tell....

1 or 2 did fall on Chaos worlds. The sect that raised Lorgar on Colchis worshipped chaos or something similar IIRC and Caliban was corrupted by chaos almost from the start, at least according to Fallen Angels.

 

Yeah and Mortarion's home world has the stink of Chaos all over it!

 

If we look at things in a literary sense:

 

I think it would be logical that what ever happened to the lost Primarchs is unlikely to be exactly like the Heresy, as the Emperor would have seen the Heresy coming a little. It would have to be a tad different.

 

Uncrontrolable mutation seems to be unlikely, as we already have this in the Thousand Sons.

[Cerelius]

only two people know what's happened to the other two Primarchs, that would be Horus and the Emperor.

Horus, because hewas the first that the Emperor found and was with him for decades before the others where found.

The Emperor, as he found them reunited them with there legions and what happened after that

[Hiram]

Just a random thought but what if Horus was the third Primarch found and the first two dudes he found didn't work out according to plan and therefore purged them and their legions before altering his approach for the next primarch he found (finally getting it right with Horus).

[Fire Lord Captain]

Maybe one of the missing primachs landed on the tyranid home world and became the hive mind. Maybe the other landed on an Ork homeworld and basically became Orkish... Lots of ideas and speculation to play with, GW have done a good job.

[Codicier Lucion]

only two people know what's happened to the other two Primarchs, that would be Horus and the Emperor.

Horus, because hewas the first that the Emperor found and was with him for decades before the others where found.

The Emperor, as he found them reunited them with there legions and what happened after that

 

That wouldn't exactly fit in with the vast levels of foreshadowing and mentions by the other Primarchs which have taken place within the series so far.

 

In the game perhaps, if you do disclude Black Library from your canon, but not in the series itself.

[Shotbreak]

Just a random thought but what if Horus was the third Primarch found and the first two dudes he found didn't work out according to plan and therefore purged them and their legions before altering his approach for the next primarch he found (finally getting it right with Horus).

 

When reading this all I can think of is "Even Horus didn't go according to plan, and he didn't get expunged from the records". So if you say that II and XI were found first and they did get expunged before Horus then the average imperial citizen (at the time) would have heard something about the Big E finding two Primarchs and they "didn't work out".

 

Also, Horus has always been the first one to be found because he was the closest to Terra and was around during the rediscovery of the other 19 primarchs.

 

Not flaming though, and it's a good theory and maybe the Emperor may have found them first but kept them a secret because he sensed what "may" become of them. The future can be a fickle thing and may or may not change even if it's glimpsed (Magnus).

[Cerelius]

can't remember if Ahriman was there when Horus was found but he was there at the start of the Great Crusade, but even he didn't seem to know what happened to them, makes you wonder if they will ever just get it out for the way considering any one can make a chapter nowadays theres no real reason to keep them hidden

[Guest dcxiii]

I really like the theories I read here, especially the "in case of emergency, break glass" one!

 

What I do like though, is that the quote Eirik_Xenobane uses in the first post from False Gods is copied from Virgil’s Aeneid, when the character Aeneas is looking at his descendants in the underworld and sees Marcellus, Augustus’ adoptive son, who died in 23BC. Authors using classical antecedents. Never gets old...

 

Anyway, I always assumed that the gap was for people to create their own and add a little fluff! It is fan faction for a reason!

[Artein]

In The Lightning Tower it is said (by Malcador?) "their separate tragedies", so they've met different fates.

[calgar101]

Remember all legions were found, fought in the Great Crusade and they fought in the heresy... maybe they were sacrificed for chaos?

[Khairon]

It definitely wasn't heresy. It couldn't have been. Look at the reaction of the legions and primarchs when horus rebels, they are completely stunned.

If either of the two lost legions were wiped due to heresy they wouldn't be looked back on as potential saviours (see Dorn and Malcador again) and Horus' rebellion wouldn't be such a shock.

 

Making a point here, HORUS + OTHER GUYS WERE ALL BEST BUDDIES FOR NEAR ON A CENTURY. Point here is that they just met the sociopathic primarch(s) who proceeded to defy/attack them. First time you see a family member, you generally hug them. If they hug you back then attack you years later, you're going to be more surprised than if they leapt at you first time and started going Angron at you.

[Gold Raven]

I was thinking just now, what if the two missing Primarchs and their respective legions killed each other?

 

Consider: how many times have we read in the Horus Heresy the phrase "Brother must not fight brother". What if the two missing Primarchs were the origins of this phrase? A bloody rivalry between the two would serve as a bad example to Marines everywhere, and as a warning of what happens when a house stands against itself. The fear and shock that many Marines feel when being forced to face their own may be the result of memories of such a rivalry.

[Affirmation]

It wouldn't hurt for GW to give some speculative fluff on legions 2 and 11, something vauge to get the juices flowing at least, i personally think that maybe one of the lost "primarchs" namely num 2, may of had a striking resemblance to the emperor, "man in the iron mask style", that would be twisted! The emp could of got switched , horus actually mortally wounded the lookalike instead and the emp is still hiding away safe in the fact that everyone thinks he's screwed stuck on the golden throne, when really he's on some crusade in the warp looking for something, maybe accompanied with some of the other missing primarchs like vulkan for example?

[chapter master miles]

i have 3 theories,

 

1-the emperor may have been godlike but he still made mistakes (eg. the burning of prospero) so mabye when he was creating the primarchs he mixed a few of the wrong chemicals together, after all that may have been what happened to saguinius only to a lesser extent, numbers 2 and 11 could have been so badly messed up big E just decided to cut his losses. And no primarchs no marines.

 

2-the primarchs and their legions were wiped out during the GC or at the begining of the heresy (after all the salamanders, iron hands and raven guard were almost destroyed) and to keep up imperial morale all evidence of their existence was destroyed.

 

3-they and the missing primarchs are in the eye of terror on some kind of eternal crusade against their fallen brethren and the information was erased to keep it all a secret.

[Walter Payton]

1-the emperor may have been godlike but he still made mistakes (eg. the burning of prospero)

 

He might have made mistakes, but the Burning of Prospero was not one of them. The Thousand Sons were irredeemably corrupt, and had defied (twice) the Emperor's direct instructions. Besides, the lot of them were already being manipulated by Tzeentch. The Space Wolves simply accelerated the process.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

I was thinking just now, what if the two missing Primarchs and their respective legions killed each other?

 

Consider: how many times have we read in the Horus Heresy the phrase "Brother must not fight brother". What if the two missing Primarchs were the origins of this phrase? A bloody rivalry between the two would serve as a bad example to Marines everywhere, and as a warning of what happens when a house stands against itself. The fear and shock that many Marines feel when being forced to face their own may be the result of memories of such a rivalry.

 

Hmmm sounds exactly like what I said ;)

[Huragok]

I'm pretty sure those legions were left empty by Games Workshop to allow for creative liscence. They allow us to think of our own traitorous or loyal legion, that fits with Canon.

[Pigeons]

It wouldn't hurt for GW to give some speculative fluff on legions 2 and 11, something vauge to get the juices flowing at least, i personally think that maybe one of the lost "primarchs" namely num 2, may of had a striking resemblance to the emperor, "man in the iron mask style", that would be twisted! The emp could of got switched , horus actually mortally wounded the lookalike instead and the emp is still hiding away safe in the fact that everyone thinks he's screwed stuck on the golden throne, when really he's on some crusade in the warp looking for something, maybe accompanied with some of the other missing primarchs like vulkan for example?

 

 

 

 

i've never heard this before and holy CRAP it's a startling theory.

 

 

 

i mean it only explains ONE of the missing primarchs, but yeah, that'd be awesome.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

It should also be noted that this is a conflict of the various non cannon hints dropped throughout the HH books about the lost legions and their primarchs versus the GW approved statement that the lost legions where left uncovered so that fans could create their own legions, primarchs and stories to go with them. Despite what the HH series may point to none of it is official cannon which means any theories that are derived from them are only fan fiction. Though many of them are great ideas.

[increaso]

It should also be noted that this is a conflict of the various non cannon hints dropped throughout the HH books about the lost legions and their primarchs versus the GW approved statement that the lost legions where left uncovered so that fans could create their own legions, primarchs and stories to go with them. Despite what the HH series may point to none of it is official cannon which means any theories that are derived from them are only fan fiction. Though many of them are great ideas.

 

Everything produced by Games Workshop Group PLC is canon.

 

Especially the stuff that contradicts the other stuff.

[EnigmaShadow]

Hello All! Been a while but I have had a really inspirational read on this topic all morning and have finally reached the end... of the topic that is, so have decided to add my notes and theories.

 

A while ago I wanted to create my own chapter and I went with one of the original primarchs and looked into the missing ones At the time, this was in late 3rd early 4th Edition, there was STILL a strong link to Warhammer Fantasy's Sigmar being of Space Marine Primarch Decent. Although now he had a mother and father and they say that ALL primarch's have been reunited to their legions and were at some point in the great crusade I raise a few points to the others that have posted. Originally Sigmar left his empire to go adrift. He COULE have been picked up by a thunderhawk and left for the great crusade, otherwise I would simply go with the option of Einstein. If Time and Space are connected, the Gods of the warp "Not having the resources to actually destroy the incubator capsules in which the embryonic Primarchs grew, the Chaos Powers combined their energies and instead stole them away from their Emperor, scattering their fetal occupants throughout the warp.

The twenty incubation capsules drifted through the warp for decades or even centuries, until finally coming to a rest on human-inhabited worlds throughout the galaxy" - Dark Angels Codex 2nd Ed (Don't ask how I managed to get a copy of that bad boy) but if you DO follow Einstein's theory, and the idea that there have been cases of Warp travel occupants sometimes arriving at the location before the wars have started or infact before they have left, why could Sigmar not be one of those unfortunate circumstances where he was too sent back in time only to find a way home through the warp?

 

Then we have the whole "On human inhabited worlds" which goes against the whole picked up by aliens thing. Or perhaps he was, then the humans found him in the clutches of the aliens, killed them all, and re-adopted him making him hate humans for their atrocities against a race which he deemed to by kind and caring? Either way it doesn't bode well, but it might be a good reason for one to turn to Chaos, perhaps his hatred grew and when the Heresy came, or even before he went a little made and fought with a brother to instill the idea of "Brother should never face brother" with one wanting to save Xeno's instead of slaughtering them.

 

As for the fighting Nids thing, I don't buy into it. They don't have a home, that's sorta the point of them. They just FEED. The insatiable hunger that Tigarius has seen (Codex Tyranids) is all they are, the idea of some sort of strange beast still alive in a galaxy far away void of all life... Because lets face it, they picked that galaxy clean, why would it stay behind in a dead galaxy with nothing to feed on? If there IS a single entity behind the Tyranid race, I'd say it was hiding just beyond the rim of our galaxy. Too close for comfort in my opinion, then there is the question of if they WERE sent to kill Nids IN their own galaxy, how did they get there? They can't use Warp drives as there would be no way to Navigate past the shadow created by the nids blocking the light the Astronomicon use to navigate through the warp. Even Ultramar is struggling with the beacon as it is (Codex Space Marines) so they'd have to use conventional drives unless they've figured out a) Where exactly they came from and :D how do use the nids own gravtiational drives to propel their engines....

 

So now on to my theories (Finally some might say. Sorry. I just thought that these were valid things to bring up as I consider myself a bit of a Lore person). It has been stated a few times, in this thread alone, that Horus was the FIRST of the Primarch's to be found. I can't remember exactly, But I think he was found in this System? Maybe even the Moon or Mars or something, cant fully remember so can't get a citation on that sorry, but he was found first, then there is a huge gap over the next one which isn't really stated. I believe that there was at least a single primarch found with Horus was with his father. His Daughter. Dalia (Gaia, Greek mythology, Earth Mother) in which a very small, but simple rivalry was borne. Even perhaps that sort of steamy thing one post talked about. Either way there are other glues that point to it. 2 'mutant suns' Sanginius who had wings and One eye Magnus, although now they say he cut out his own eye for his magical abilities as was a ritual, then you could say (As my old school LOVED to try and drone into me) that the other 'brother' was a mutated male. A female. Swept from the imperial records for being a 'lower' for of mankind. Seeing as they do have a dark age ideal around the social structure, the high lords of Terra are all males, and most of the other important people, females always seeming to be the lower rank, then it would makes sense that they would purge the records to save face per say.

 

LASTELY! There is the heresy itself, although I have not read these books yet (I haven't had the time despite having 5 months off recently lol), there is a point, WELL known to all in the heresy. The siege at the gates of the Imperial Palace. Horus believed that once he had broken into palace and toped the throne his victory would be complete (That and the Ultramarines and others coming to the aid a tad late and able to put on a serious battle once more) He lowered his shields to see that final victory. At the gate were.... Yep, The Emperor himself, Sanginus, Rogal Dorn AND.... nobody apparently. Ok, so there were some Veterns and Marines, and such. But Would you really leave the gate completely undefended if that was what the bad guy wanted? No, you'd leave someone there to guard it while they took the fight to Horus. Enter Dalia once more, who even though she was possibly even Horus' Lover (Although that IS gross, he's her brother after all so maybe not) But at least GREAT friends, she denied the Chaos whispers and held it with her loyal marines. Buying the time her brothers and the Emperor needed to find and face Horus and defeat him thereby ending the war altogether.

 

Although his doesn't fit with the whole 'Horus Heresy' books, I don't work for GW so I never really got the chance to tell them my theory. Plus, I like the idea of making these things up, otherwise how else would we have exciting topics such as these to deliberate on? There was also a comment of two having two in the warp with Lion 'El Johnson? I think you mean Khan? Johnson is in stasis kept hidden by the watchers on the bottom of Rock, The Dark Angels Homeworld/Fortress where he heals his wounds from his fight and waits to be awaken once more..... By Cypher! Go Rise of Tau.

 

Shadow

[khalifah]

Considering it was a surprise for everyone (well maybe not the Emperor) when the the traitors came to be. I dont think there was any inter-legion fighting going on.

 

However, whatever happened was so terrible it lead to the records of such legions being deleted, yet they were not totally erased (otherwise we would not be talking about it).

 

So they could not be fighting each other, and they must have been united(the marines and the Primarchs).

 

Id like to think these two Primarchs had thought their dads geneseed was not enough awsome. Thus, after a while of the Crusades, they both conspired and perverted the geneseed into something monsterous that would make a joke out of E's natural genes. But because they failed, and failed, and failed again (in secret) they turned their legions into mutated monsters in service of the emperor. Once their daddy got smell of what they were doing(as well as maybe some of the other Primarchs). He had them all banished into some other galexy (maybe to fight the tyranids) never to come home again. the Emperor is emberressed of this, thus has their records deleted, except for those who knew (which were the other primarches)\

[Jordan-096]

This could work:

Legion II: Grey Knights. There is no record of their founding, except that they were ONE OF THE FIRST CHAPTERS FORMED

 

Legion XI: Rainbow Warriors. Again, no record. In the current codex a planet called "Prism" has the RW chapter symbol, and it says <<RECORD DELETED>>. Also in one of the older source books there is a pic of a Sister of Battle shootin a Rainbow Warriors marine in the head.