Raven Angel Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Agreed. If it penetrates their skin of course. B) Aim for the eye. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3104633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerorunner Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Actually it was in Deliverance Lost. Oh, and I know it is extremely rare for someone to survive being shot in the head, my example was there was a possibility of survival for humans on this planet, whilst Primarchs are like a 1,000 times the power and survivability of a mere human. Regardless, yeah, Deliverance Lost shows bullets bouncing off Corax's skin body so I don't think it would be any different bouncing off his forehead too. Funny how one story can change peoples views on things isn't it? Especially as that sort of thing isn't said anywhere else. Sounds like proper BS. Eh, if you want to get picky about it, a Heavy Stubber just fires large caliber solid shot rounds. Probably soft metal (lead) rounds at that, fired at a low velocity. Not quite the same as how Bolter shells operate. Or, the bullets bouncing off is simply a weird portrayal of sucky "To-Wound" rolls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3104687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Thing is, it's not just about the Emperor's power level at the Siege of Terra and his confrontation with Horus. It's also about Horus' power level. True, you have an Emperor who is likely drained a bit and reluctant, but you also have a Primarch souped up by the favor of everything Chaos. It's possible that the Emperor didn't choose for this to happen, that he didn't have a choice, or at least not much of one. He hesitated at the idea of killing his favored son, but that son's strength had been increased to the point that he had an actual shot at overcoming the Emperor. And it took all of the Emperor's strength to take him down. It wasn't like he just popped a mind bullet in ol' Horus' way. It's described that he funneled all of the strength he had left, after forcibly banishing everything 'good' about himself in order to achieve this, and struck out at Horus with all the psychic might he had. Which wasn't enough to kill Horus. It caused Chaos to flee him, but he survived the most powerful blow the Emperor could give. Just long enough to realize his mistake, and plead for death, which the Emperor then gave to him. So wondering why the Emperor was so weak as to be threatened by a Primarch is kind of missing the point, which is that the Primarch in question was near the Emperor's strength thanks to his Chaos God patrons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3107988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 So, have listened to Butchers Nails about 5 times throught now, and something struck me on here after reading another post in the BN thread. Lorgar is corrected by Angron that Primarchs CAN die, after he was theorising about it, using Ferrus as the example. Now, this may be massive conjecture, but this would mean that 2nd and 11th hadn't been killed in the traditional sense, otherwise it would have come as no surprise to Lorgar. Mantras Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3125239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broker Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 So, have listened to Butchers Nails about 5 times throught now, and something struck me on here after reading another post in the BN thread. Lorgar is corrected by Angron that Primarchs CAN die, after he was theorising about it, using Ferrus as the example. Now, this may be massive conjecture, but this would mean that 2nd and 11th hadn't been killed in the traditional sense, otherwise it would have come as no surprise to Lorgar. Mantras I think it shows that Lorgar has a tendency to forget facts he's uncomfortable with, tbh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3126745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I think it shows that Lorgar has a tendency to forget facts he's uncomfortable with, tbh. Or that his experience and interactions with the missing Primarchs and their conclusive ends is less than Angron's. He may very well have just not known, which isn't without precedent. Corax, and by extension Alpharius/Omegon (being the last Primarchs discovered), was found after their fates had been sealed, and had no real knowledge of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3126813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necris Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I disagree in deliverance lost Corax makes the remark when sent to his personalised suite on Terra about the age of them because there are 20 of them andd how long they had stood there. If I recall they are called The Lost and the Forgotten I believe that The Lost were sent into the Warp to explore it's depths and we as the name suggest LOST I feel the Forgotten were deployed in a similar fashion to Titan prior to the Heresy and are trapped and unable to return, I think that the secret artefact within Malcador's tomb on Titan holds the key to this answer and is not the big reset button for Big E's return Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3131264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I've always wondered if at least one of the two missing primarchs was in fact the first discovered by the Emperor and something went wrong after that. Either that primarch didn't want to join the Emperor or when they did the Emperor sent them into the Warp and they became lost in it. This would then explain why the Emperor really never fully explained the dangers of the Warp to the other primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3131311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaze07 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I like to think that at least one of them is so far out in the galaxy exploring that they are lost,Would love of they came back to 40k!!! (just my Opinion though) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3131803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelCommissar Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 If the lost were to return, would he take up command of the Imperium, over and above the High Lords, or would he be more of an advisor? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3131829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaze07 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I like to think that at least one of them is so far out in the galaxy exploring that they are lost,Would love of they came back to 40k!!! (just my Opinion though) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3131859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 If the lost were to return, would he take up command of the Imperium, over and above the High Lords, or would he be more of an advisor? I think the High Lords would be so terrified of losing their power they would declare him and his legion Excommunicate Traitoris. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3131860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaze07 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Sorry Double post by accident Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3131861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Well in Feat of Iron (in The Primarchs at the end the eldar mention that as Mannus wouldn't listen "there is another, one who is lost". But then this could be Nick Kyme just putting the eldar's view on it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3131907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I don't see why he would come in and take over automatically, he would have had no hand in shaping the imperium and almost ceretainly very little contact with the Big E himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3131910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I agree with Bulwyf. I think the High Lords of Terra would try to have them killed, if not overtly, which I think is most likely unless he was able to gain enough support quickly from the Astartes. If that happened I think they would try to do it covertly as we saw with Kurze. For one thing, it seems pretty safe to assume that said Primarch was around the Emperor back when the role of the Primarchs was to unite Humanity and bring them the light of the Imperial Truth. I think there could be a lot going on in the current state of the Imperium for the Primarch to call them on. He left and religion was forbidden, he comes back and humanity is pretty much now forced to worship the Emperor as divine. All that said, I don't think either of them is just "off somewhere" I think they're both dead. If one was just off away out of the galaxy or in the warp, I don't think they would have been stricken from the records and had their statues smashed or whatever. I think E cared enough about his Loyal Sons that they would be seen as heroes, there would likely be some kind of memorial. But if he had sanctioned them for destruction then they are deleted from the archives, records expunged, statues defaced/destroyed, the Primarchs are forbidden to talk about them, etc. It seemed to me that The First Heretic hinted that this was a possibility and one that almost happened to Lorgar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3131951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I agree with Bulwyf. I think the High Lords of Terra would try to have them killed, if not overtly, which I think is most likely unless he was able to gain enough support quickly from the Astartes. If that happened I think they would try to do it covertly as we saw with Kurze. For one thing, it seems pretty safe to assume that said Primarch was around the Emperor back when the role of the Primarchs was to unite Humanity and bring them the light of the Imperial Truth. I think there could be a lot going on in the current state of the Imperium for the Primarch to call them on. He left and religion was forbidden, he comes back and humanity is pretty much now forced to worship the Emperor as divine. All that said, I don't think either of them is just "off somewhere" I think they're both dead. If one was just off away out of the galaxy or in the warp, I don't think they would have been stricken from the records and had their statues smashed or whatever. I think E cared enough about his Loyal Sons that they would be seen as heroes, there would likely be some kind of memorial. But if he had sanctioned them for destruction then they are deleted from the archives, records expunged, statues defaced/destroyed, the Primarchs are forbidden to talk about them, etc. It seemed to me that The First Heretic hinted that this was a possibility and one that almost happened to Lorgar. What little anecdcotal evidence we have though seems to heavily suggest if not outright state that at least one of them is considered "lost" and the connotations of that seem to be they were not killed. Just simply lost. I think one of them at least is lost in the Warp or the warpway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3132010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 It is entirely possible that's the case. I've always taken "lost" more along the "damned, morally fallen," meaning rather than the "unable to be found, recovered" meaning. But since all we really were told originally is Lost and Forgotten, in as far as that statement goes, they didn't really tell us how they meant it. And since back then it was out of game just something they pretty much just left open for the players to have fun with, I guess here we are having fun with it, haha. But it is nice to see BL having fun with it too, and trying to put the pieces together and see what the deeper lore is telling us. I also used to like to think, way back, that Sigmar was the "Lost" Primarch, although GW seems to have really tried to make that pretty unlikely any more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3132119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Yes, I also view 'lost' as 'damned', because of all the erased records and pooped-on statues Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3132206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Here's another thing to consider: the stated reason GW has always given about not giving any real details of the two missing primarchs is for table top players to use them as the basis for either their Space Marines or Chaos Space Marine armies. Since we know that is true then we also know that at the very least the geneseed from those two primarchs is floating around somewhere or else you couldn't possibly have a loyalist or traitor army that could exist without it. So we not only have to consider what happened to the two primarchs or their legions but the fact GW says the geneseed is still running around to support the players who use them. That means we must ponder where the heck their missing geneseed is at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3132223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Here's another thing to consider: the stated reason GW has always given about not giving any real details of the two missing primarchs is for table top players to use them as the basis for either their Space Marines or Chaos Space Marine armies. Since we know that is true then we also know that at the very least the geneseed from those two primarchs is floating around somewhere or else you couldn't possibly have a loyalist or traitor army that could exist without it. So we not only have to consider what happened to the two primarchs or their legions but the fact GW says the geneseed is still running around to support the players who use them. That means we must ponder where the heck their missing geneseed is at. But no, not really. That is the stated reason for having two missing Legions, but that was back when the faction you were playing would be the legions themselves, not those utilizing their geneseed like a successor Chapter. It was their way of handing their universe to us with a "do what you will" sign attached. Since then, they've provided us with alternative means. Chaos Marines fracture into Warbands, you can make up your own with whatever flavor you wish, or you can create a Successor Chapter if you have a Loyalist prediliction. They are really two very different means for providing the same thing: Your own personal take on the universe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3132233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Here's another thing to consider: the stated reason GW has always given about not giving any real details of the two missing primarchs is for table top players to use them as the basis for either their Space Marines or Chaos Space Marine armies. Since we know that is true then we also know that at the very least the geneseed from those two primarchs is floating around somewhere or else you couldn't possibly have a loyalist or traitor army that could exist without it. So we not only have to consider what happened to the two primarchs or their legions but the fact GW says the geneseed is still running around to support the players who use them. That means we must ponder where the heck their missing geneseed is at. But no, not really. That is the stated reason for having two missing Legions, but that was back when the faction you were playing would be the legions themselves, not those utilizing their geneseed like a successor Chapter. It was their way of handing their universe to us with a "do what you will" sign attached. Since then, they've provided us with alternative means. Chaos Marines fracture into Warbands, you can make up your own with whatever flavor you wish, or you can create a Successor Chapter if you have a Loyalist prediliction. They are really two very different means for providing the same thing: Your own personal take on the universe. Even successor chapters use the geneseed though. Even CSM have to use some elements of geneseed to replace losses. So the question of where the geneseed is at or at the very least why it survived the purges and is still floating around in today's 40k universe is valid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3132242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Surely if a player wanted to create a DIY Legion complete with Primarch and geneseed, and they were going on the basis that their DIY army is one of the Lost Legions, it would still be a Lost Legion, not a Chapter/Warband created using the Lost Legions geneseed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3132253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 "Lost" at the point the primarchs were lost couldn't have meant morally damned, because there was nothing to be morally damned by, at least not officially. If the official line of the Lost was intended to mean damned then Horus and Chaos wouldn't have been such a surprise, as Lost in this case would imply it had happened before. IMO, Lost in this case means just that; no one knows where they are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3137308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 It sounds like Fear to Tread may contain a hint as to a pontential reason for why a Legion might be "disappeared" by the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/199471-the-lost-primarchs/page/9/#findComment-3137309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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