The Marines Exemplar

[Argon]

Maybe just a little history thing and how the Exemplars figure into it. Nothing fancy. Given that we're really building them around the fact they guard the Eye of Terror, it probably wouldn't hurt.

Hm... So something like: "Cadia as a first line of defence was suitable enough against "regular" incursions from the Eye, but against a full-fledged Black Crusade even a world like Cadia couldn't have hope to hold out. Therefore the High Lords decreed that a number of Astartes chapters be stationed in the vicinity of the Eye to support regular Imperial forces in that event. Some of these chapters are even rumoured to have been specifically created for that task, although their ancenstry and very much everything else has been forgotten by now." - Just a quick sketch.

 

Yeah, like that. Very nice. :)

 

It wouldn't be a bad idea to refine it a bit.

That's why I asked if we would tackle Organization next because I felt it could use some refining. The Codex Chapter part restricts us, though. What exactly would you refine?

 

"Codex chapter" really just means they have the standard 10 companies in this case. Honestly, I can't really think of anything to refine.

 

Shall we move on to Combat Doctrine?

 

It's in Dark Creed. Because they're also a Praeses chapter, they have one chapter master with the marines around the Eye of Terror and one on their homeworld.

I haven't read it, but that doesn't make much sense either. Surely every chapter master has a second-in-command who is more than capable to ensure matters are attended to in his absence. Why would a Praeses chapter need two chapter masters? If there's an authority issue the chapter master is at the front line and his representative is in charge of training, replacement and everything else that needs to be done on the homeworld. Is there an explanation given?

 

I don't have the book with me, as I'm posting from school. I'll edit this when I get it.

[Captain Apollo]

what about what i said, obviously the organization needs to be tweaked a little bit because the Codex Astartes wasn't meant for specialist chapters, the exemplars are a specialist chapter and if they are going to take on the waves of emotion driven chaos hordes, they need to be flexible, especially against the black legion, their organization would have to differ from that of the codex (not a whole lot) enough to supplement being scattered and having to hold out against chaos without reinforcements for long periods of time. Having terminators and other unconventional Battle Company units integrated in the companies would allow them to hold out on their own without depleting first company forces from other areas of the defense.

[Argon]

what about what i said, obviously the organization needs to be tweaked a little bit because the Codex Astartes wasn't meant for specialist chapters, the exemplars are a specialist chapter

 

How are they a specialist chapter? The Ultramarines are effectively defended the galaxy from two Hive Fleets, but I'd hardly call them a specialist chapter. Also, don't forget that half of the Ultramarines 1st Company is made of Tyranid Hunters. There's room in the Codex for specialization.

 

and if they are going to take on the waves of emotion driven chaos hordes, they need to be flexible, especially against the black legion, their organization would have to differ from that of the codex (not a whole lot)

 

Why? The codex has existed for 10,000 years, and Chaos has yet to get any closer to killing the False Emperor.

 

Also, what makes the Black Leigon special? Yes, they're likely to field a variety of units, but dealing with them is easy enough.

 

 

enough to supplement being scattered and having to hold out against chaos without reinforcements for long periods of time.

 

That's part of the job, yes. There's a number of Guard units and other chapters that have homeworlds near the Eye as well. There's monitoring stations on every known path out of the Eye and naval blockades stationed at each one. If anything especially massive were to happen, the Imperium would probably know about it and respond immediately.

 

 

Having terminators and other unconventional Battle Company units integrated in the companies would allow them to hold out on their own without depleting first company forces from other areas of the defense.

 

That's going towards the Space Wolves' thing, and that would require a lot of explaination.

 

You seem to be underestimating how powerful a single Space Marine is. They're superhuman beings bred for nothing but war. They've got the best armor and most powerful weapons the Imperium can give them short of making Titan weapons man-portable. In the 3rd Edition codex, a single Company took on a planet-wide rebellion and put it down in less than a month. Given that most of what comes out of the Eye of Terror are small-scale raids, I think the Exemplars can handle themselves.

[Captain Apollo]

roger, on all counts, i just thaught that any individual chapter would be at a disadvantage against a legion of Astartes with battle experience that dates back 10,000 years, but it is true that they only come out in small war bands most of the time and the Astartes are pretty awesome in them selves, i guess you are right, hey i know this is off topic but im trying to make my company captain's back story and i cant for the life of me find necris on any galactic map, what other system is it nears to?

[Lord Tybault]

The structure of a Space Marine chapter is meant to be very flexible. Cross-attaching will happen quite often (e.g. a couple of 1st Company veterans being attached to a regular company or a larger strike force depening on threat and/or mission objective), so I reckon that question really isn't one and is already solved.

 

Anything else we have covered. A quite intersting and important question is if we assume that Necris is indeed to the galactic far south and that the Exemplars "only" have a space fortress in the vicinity of the Eye. That'd pose the question how large the force permanently stationed there is, although I assume there'd be a unit rotation cycle.

[Captain Apollo]

and how large the space fortress is for the majority of the chapter on deployment to come and receive available refit and supplies and brief field leave.

[Captain Apollo]

never mind, i just researched the star forts, one is good enough and will suffice for an entire chapter

[Argon]

Anything else we have covered. A quite intersting and important question is if we assume that Necris is indeed to the galactic far south and that the Exemplars "only" have a space fortress in the vicinity of the Eye. That'd pose the question how large the force permanently stationed there is, although I assume there'd be a unit rotation cycle.

 

It could be a star fort, or it could be a large fleet. Either one works.

 

I would also assume there's a rotation cycle. IIRC, there's a thing in the current Codex:Space Marines that says the Reserve Companies (6th-9th) aren't given guard duty in chapters with a static fortress-monestary, because they're mostly recently promoted Neophytes and need more experience. I'd think they'd be out guarding the Eye fairly often just for that reason. Meanwhile, one of the battle companies could go back to Necris to recoup their losses and guard Arx Fatalis .

[Captain Apollo]

yeah i think the index astartes is ready

[Lord Tybault]

It could be a star fort, or it could be a large fleet. Either one works.

 

Personally I'm in favor of a star fort, but that doesnt make that much sense tactically with fortress worlds already being in place... stationary defenses can be avoided and the chapter would need a sizeable fleet for any kind of operation anyway, so we could have them fleet-based in the first place. Provisions could be drawn from the Imperial Navy.

 

 

I would also assume there's a rotation cycle. IIRC, there's a thing in the current Codex:Space Marines that says the Reserve Companies (6th-9th) aren't given guard duty in chapters with a static fortress-monestary, because they're mostly recently promoted Neophytes and need more experience. I'd think they'd be out guarding the Eye fairly often just for that reason. Meanwhile, one of the battle companies could go back to Necris to recoup their losses and guard Arx Fatalis.

 

Haven't had time to check on that, but I'll dig through all the codices to make sure. I think, though, it is reasonable to assume that maybe only half of each Reserve Company is on deployment and the other half is essentially training replacements. Members of the Reserve Companies get promoted to the Combat Companies in turn depending on their achievements and will then be rotated out of combat with their respective company. That'd mean the younger battlebrothers would eventually see more action than the older ones but they're in more need of training.

 

 

yeah i think the index astartes is ready

 

Well... not quite.

[Argon]

It could be a star fort, or it could be a large fleet. Either one works.

 

Personally I'm in favor of a star fort, but that doesnt make that much sense tactically with fortress worlds already being in place... stationary defenses can be avoided and the chapter would need a sizeable fleet for any kind of operation anyway, so we could have them fleet-based in the first place. Provisions could be drawn from the Imperial Navy.

 

I'm personally in favor of the fleet. It allows for more mobility and they can cover more ground. It wouldn't be all that big, though. Chapter fleets aren't all that massive; most chapters only have 2 or 3 battle barges and 5 or so strike cruisers plus a number of escorts. Thus, I'm guessing the Exemplars would have a slightly larger fleet than usual, especially if they're fighting in other areas, like around Necris. They'd most definately station most of their fleet around the Eye, though.

 

The Imperial Navy elements seems a little iffy. In Dark Creed, most of the Astartes Praeses sent ships to help the White Consuls. However, they were defending a particularly important world. I'm sure the Exemplars would work with the Navy now and then, but I really doubt they would have their own Lunar-class Cruiser. The Imperial Navy holds a monopoly on true naval power in the Imperium.

 

Haven't had time to check on that, but I'll dig through all the codices to make sure. I think, though, it is reasonable to assume that maybe only half of each Reserve Company is on deployment and the other half is essentially training replacements. Members of the Reserve Companies get promoted to the Combat Companies in turn depending on their achievements and will then be rotated out of combat with their respective company. That'd mean the younger battlebrothers would eventually see more action than the older ones but they're in more need of training.

 

That's a good thing, though. They're younger, so they're inexperienced, which is bad. You want them to get as much experience and "on the job training" as possible.

 

 

yeah i think the index astartes is ready

 

Well... not quite.

 

This. We've still got a couple things to work on.

 

 

In other news , I've added to my Marines Exemplar army with a Scout Biker. Pictures may or may not come later.

[Lord Tybault]

I'm personally in favor of the fleet. It allows for more mobility and they can cover more ground. It wouldn't be all that big, though. Chapter fleets aren't all that massive; most chapters only have 2 or 3 battle barges and 5 or so strike cruisers plus a number of escorts. Thus, I'm guessing the Exemplars would have a slightly larger fleet than usual, especially if they're fighting in other areas, like around Necris. They'd most definately station most of their fleet around the Eye, though.

I just like castles, but a fleet does make much more sense. They'd need a sizeable transport element either way for ferrying troops from Necris to the Eye and back. So... what is standard fleet size?

 

 

The Imperial Navy elements seems a little iffy. In Dark Creed, most of the Astartes Praeses sent ships to help the White Consuls. However, they were defending a particularly important world. I'm sure the Exemplars would work with the Navy now and then, but I really doubt they would have their own Lunar-class Cruiser. The Imperial Navy holds a monopoly on true naval power in the Imperium.

Not quite what I meant - if the chapter isn't completely fleet-based, the ships at the frontline will need to be repaired and resupplied by more conventional means. I just don't think the chapter can field such a big support element which would essentially make them self-sufficient (too bad that part of the fluff has never been properly explored to my knowledge). Since I don't believe that, I think they'd call upon the Navy for resupply and repairs.

 

 

Combat Doctrine then?

[Captain Apollo]

hey guys im sorry for being off topic again but im making my captain of the 4th company and i need to know if we have decided if their Gene seed is indeed from the ultramarines, i want my guy to have to Macraage MK II helmet or something close.

[Lord Tybault]

ADDENDUM - checked The SM codices right down to the 2nd Ed. one:

 

2nd Ed. Ultramarines/5th Ed. SM essentially give us the same details, 3rd and 4th Ed. omits most of the fulff completely. Result: 6th and 7th Company mainly are for training and replacement since they're entirely composed of Tactical Squads. 8th is the Assault Company, 9th the Devastator Company. Those would certainly give up brothers as replacement as well, but will else be on guard duty or supporting an attack in case of need.

I still think it is reasonable to assume that only half of a Reserve Company is constantly on deployment (with the rare exception of a Black Crusade or something comparably big in which case the entire chapter would deploy) with its own rotation cycle independent from the Combat Companies. I'd say Combat Companies get rotated out of combat entirely, within the Reserve Companies it'd rather be individual squads.

[Argon]

ADDENDUM - checked The SM codices right down to the 2nd Ed. one:

 

2nd Ed. Ultramarines/5th Ed. SM essentially give us the same details, 3rd and 4th Ed. omits most of the fulff completely. Result: 6th and 7th Company mainly are for training and replacement since they're entirely composed of Tactical Squads. 8th is the Assault Company, 9th the Devastator Company. Those would certainly give up brothers as replacement as well, but will else be on guard duty or supporting an attack in case of need.

I still think it is reasonable to assume that only half of a Reserve Company is constantly on deployment (with the rare exception of a Black Crusade or something comparably big in which case the entire chapter would deploy) with its own rotation cycle independent from the Combat Companies. I'd say Combat Companies get rotated out of combat entirely, within the Reserve Companies it'd rather be individual squads.

 

3rd Ed Codex barely has anything as far as fluff goes. 4th Ed has a little on heraldry, but nothing new or earth-shaking.

 

The rotation cycle sounds fine to me. I think we just need to wrap up and we'll be done with Organization.

 

In other news, I have mid-term exams this week and a lovely sinus infection. Don't expect too much from me for the next few days. I can sort of understand Nurgle's appeal now.

[Captain Apollo]

so i guess ill start an other topic to get some conversation going, how do you all feel about the leadership of the exemplars wearing artificor armor? it would help with their ability to fight chaos because it would inspire their confidante through visual heraldry, mostly i just want this cause im planing my captain to be pretty decked out in iconography that exemplifies angel of death and combat flexibility lol.

[Lord Tybault]

Well, do whatever you like, after all it's your army. But this would indeed be better placed in the modelling section. At the moment we're more interested in the background - visuals come later.

[Argon]

So, to sum up our latest work:

 

-Codex Chapter

- Each company has integrated librarian and 2 company chaplains, to better watch for corruption

- Companies rotate between guarding Eye of Terror and guarding Necris/policing local area

 

 

Is that basically it?

[Lord Tybault]

Maybe 2 librarians as well? Gives a bit more rdundancy should something go wrong - after all especially psykers are a tempting target for Chaos, so we might want to think about including a second one so they can watch each other. Would yield a pretty big numbers of librarians, though... *think*

 

2 chaplains is definitely acceptable.

[Argon]

Maybe 2 librarians as well? Gives a bit more rdundancy should something go wrong - after all especially psykers are a tempting target for Chaos, so we might want to think about including a second one so they can watch each other. Would yield a pretty big numbers of librarians, though... *think*

 

2 chaplains is definitely acceptable.

 

 

2 for the Battle Companies, perhaps. I was just listing what I thought we had agreed on previously.

[Lord Tybault]

2 for the Battle Companies, perhaps. I was just listing what I thought we had agreed on previously.

Yes, yes, of course. I actually haven't thought about it in that much detail since I rarely field both a chaplain AND a librarian in a single game, lest two of them. In general, the above sums it up nicely.

[Lord Tybault]

ADDENDUM II - isn't exactly Organization only, but neither Combat Doctrine: squad composition.

 

I have built my army in such a way that each squad contains two veterans - battlebrothers having attained either the honor of gaving been selected for First Company, awarded/granted the Crux Terminatus (I'm thinking a litttle bit like 'Chaos Gate' here) or simply having served in the company for, say, 50 or more years. They are distinguishable from the "ordinary" battlebrother by having received a suit of MK.VI armor. They are further disinguished by special/enhanced weaponry (mainly carrying scoped boltguns because the game rules don't allow anything else) and usually are proficient with every weapon the chapter has at its disposal. The duty of these veterans is twofold:

- I) Assist the sergeant as 2iC and to take command in case the sergeant is incapacitated (in earlier days there was a corporal rank - I'm kind of emulating that)

- II) Further train the other members of the squad in the use of advanced tactics and superior weapons handling (especially in Devastator Squads), taking care of and monitoring newly appointed squad members or recently promoted neophytes.

 

Once they're too old or unfit for combat, they serve in various staff positions or train aspirants and neophytes on Necris.

Apart from that I though that these veterans do have yet another rotation cycle of their own (although that is pretty dependent on the overall strategic situation and deployment of forces): I assume that the First Company is at full strength nominally, but that about 2/3 of the company's members actually serve in the Combat Companies and a few in the Reserve Companies and only in times of dire need are brought together to form a full strength veteran company. Usually the company's members would serve a given time in a Reserve or Combat Company and then return to the First while those having actively served there would then take their place in the other companies. That measure would ensure thast the chapter's combat prowess and experience would be distributed evenly, no matter what kind of force is deployed.

[Argon]

ADDENDUM II - isn't exactly Organization only, but neither Combat Doctrine: squad composition.

 

I have built my army in such a way that each squad contains two veterans - battlebrothers having attained either the honor of having been selected for First Company, awarded/granted the Crux Terminatus (I'm thinking a litttle bit like 'Chaos Gate' here) or simply having served in the company for, say, 50 or more years.

 

I haven't played Chaos Gate, please elaborate.

 

IIRC, You only get the Crux Terminatus by being selected for the First Company.

 

They are distinguishable from the "ordinary" battlebrother by having received a suit of MK.VI armor. They are further disinguished by special/enhanced weaponry (mainly carrying scoped boltguns because the game rules don't allow anything else)

 

Sternguard :D .

 

Define "special/enhanced". Are we talking experimental weapons or just really well made weapons?

 

and usually are proficient with every weapon the chapter has at its disposal.

 

Given they would have served in Assault, Devestator, and Tactical squads by that point, I would hope so.

 

The duty of these veterans is twofold:

- I) Assist the sergeant as 2iC and to take command in case the sergeant is incapacitated (in earlier days there was a corporal rank - I'm kind of emulating that)

- II) Further train the other members of the sad in the use of advanced tactics and superior weapons handling (especially in Devastator Squads), taking care of and monitoring newly appointed squad members or recently promoted neophytes.

 

I remember that. I believe it was called "Squad Leader" and was given to a regular battle-brother, though. He was the replacement in the event the sergeant fell.

 

Once they're too old or unfit for combat, they serve in various staff positions or train aspirants and neophytes on Necris.

 

Marines unfit for combat are either dreadnaught pilots or dead. There's really not much middle ground. I'm pretty sure even in old age Space Marines still fight. Look at the Long Fangs, for example.

 

 

Apart from that I though that these veterans do have yet another rotation cycle of their own (although that is pretty dependent on the overall strategic situation and deployment of forces): I assume that the First Company is at full strength nominally, but that about 2/3 of the company's members actually serve in the Combat Companies and a few in the Reserve Companies and only in times of dire need are brought together to form a full strength veteran company. Usually the company's members would serve a given time in a Reserve or Combat Company and then return to the First while those having actively served there would then take their place in the other companies. That measure would ensure thast the chapter's combat prowess and experience would be distributed evenly, no matter what kind of force is deployed.

 

So it's more or less like the Space Wolves, only it's trying to fit into the Codex instead of getting drunk on ale and running into battle brandishing a large rock?

 

Wouldn't it be easier to have a First Company? I think it's only Veteran Sergeants that get the honor of leading squads now, I'll have to check the Codex.

[Lord Tybault]

I haven't played Chaos Gate, please elaborate.

 

IIRC, You only get the Crux Terminatus by being selected for the First Company.

'Chaos Gate' was one of the first 40K PC games. It was turn-based and had you lead indigvidual squads and heroes (like a librarian and chaplain) into combat. Your men gained experience and were awarded decorations - the Crux for example was awarded when they had killed 100 enemies in combat or something (admitted, that is pretty simplified, but I like the interpretation).

 

The point is that I don't think the Crux is awarded automatically once you get selected for First but I rather believe having earned the Crux is a prerequisite for that. Not every veteran sergeant will necessarily serve in First Company (or have done so) but I like to think they may also have earned the Crux if they showed exceptional combat prowess. It is a rare award and a badge of honor after all.

 

 

Sternguard ;) .

Well, whatever you like to call them. The way I see them they're NOT Sternguard, but something else. Neither do I like those designations - First Company veterans are First Company veterans for me, as simple as that. Either way they're serving as regular integral squad members as long as they're members of one of the other companies and apart from having received the honor of being selected for First Company they're not special.

 

 

Define "special/enhanced". Are we talking experimental weapons or just really well made weapons?

Rather the latter - experimental weapons would be too much, but I think some of them carrying artificier weapons or combi-weapons would be reasonable enough, even if the game rules actually don't allow that.

 

 

Given they would have served in Assault, Devestator, and Tactical squads by that point, I would hope so.

Interesting question - can we assume that every First Company veteran has served in every tactical role during his service? You're right to point out that I'm implying that and given how I explained their role it'd make sense.

 

 

I remember that. I believe it was called "Squad Leader" and was given to a regular battle-brother, though. He was the replacement in the event the sergeant fell.

Correct. 'Squad leader' is 2nd Ed. while 'Corporal would be 1st Ed. I liked the concept so I carried it over in fluff form at least.

 

 

Marines unfit for combat are either dreadnaught pilots or dead. There's really not much middle ground. I'm pretty sure even in old age Space Marines still fight. Look at the Long Fangs, for example.

Not necessarily. There have been Astartes dying of old age actually - a notable one would be Veteran Sergeant Cleutin of the Blood Angels (admitted, not the best example since those guys get really old even by Astartes standards). At least I think that's the 'official' version. But I recall having read about a few others who didn't die in combat, but we can discuss that opinion.

Apart from that not every Astartes is bestowed the honor of being encased in a dreadnought - only few individuals are worthy enough for that. And within the general 40K logic it is reasonable enough to assume that there are Astartes that have become too old to go into combat because their reflexes aren't as good or they received too many heavy wounds or the like. Sure, that isn't as heroic as dying on a battlefield or continuing to serve as dreadnought but why shouldn't it happen?

 

 

So it's more or less like the Space Wolves, only it's trying to fit into the Codex instead of getting drunk on ale and running into battle brandishing a large rock?

I admit I have no real knowledge of Space Wolves, so that is possible - no idea. Would have to get my hands on a SW codex to check on that. Care to elaborate? :lol:

 

 

Wouldn't it be easier to have a First Company? I think it's only Veteran Sergeants that get the honor of leading squads now, I'll have to check the Codex.

Oh, I didn't say I wanted to do away with First Company, not at all - mainly I was looking for a good explanation to use Mk.VI armor because those are increasingly rare (especially in a comparatively young chapter) and the above is what I came up with. Maybe it's a bit too esoteric, but that's why I'm dsicussing it here.

[Argon]

*plucks thread from the brink of death*

 

 

I hope the unplanned break hasn't made everyone leave. We still have a little way to go before we have the outline of a working Index Astartes.

 

 

Interesting question - can we assume that every First Company veteran has served in every tactical role during his service? You're right to point out that I'm implying that and given how I explained their role it'd make sense.

 

The current codex says the order of advancement is Scout --> Devestator --> Assault --> Tactical--> Veteran. The answer is probably yes.

 

 

I admit I have no real knowledge of Space Wolves, so that is possible - no idea. Would have to get my hands on a SW codex to check on that. Care to elaborate? :lol:

 

The veterans of a Great Company are called "Wolf Guard". They can form a single squad or lead a squad of less experienced Wolves into battle. That's the condensed version.