GW's New Blood Angels FAQ

[Morticon]

RAW = If any model is within range then every model in that unit, to include the IC, gains FC and FNP.

 

 

Just had to quote this for truth.

 

This thread is going to confuse the some of the newer/less experienced players.

 

Just like Sanguinarian said- thats spot on. All this nonsense about only models getting the bonus is odd odd odd.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

can any of the USR even been used on a "by model" basis? other than IC and units having different USR and keeping/losing them when joining together, i thought if one model in the unit had it, they all did.

[Sanguinarian]

Specifically speaking of Blood Angels, they are all spelled out in C:BA.

***Sanguinary Priests give FC and FNP to any/all unit within 6".

***Vanguard Veterans lose Heroic Intervention if joined by an IC.

***DC Tycho and Mephiston are units of 1, so no boosts or bonuses.

***Dante has his 3 - No Scatter Deep Strike, Hit &Run and Sanguinary Guard =Troops.

***Sane Tycho bestows his Ld10 across the board.

***Astorath, Lemartes, Reclusiarchs & Chappies grant Lits-of-Blood, Honour-of-the-Chapter, etc: Astorath gives 50% chance of Red Thirst.

***Corbulo (aside from being an SP) & Seth have no boosts.

 

Can't think of anything else, nor am I even sure I answered the question. Just trying to distract myself from the fireworks - still froggy after seeing the "real" stuff in the desert - but I can't flinch in front of the family. Did I mention I hate fireworks?

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Not to rehash this or anything, but has anyone cared to look in the core rule book for Furious charge? The reason why I ask this is the example given in the FAQ on stats that you apply the bonuses when you put them to use. The problem I am bringing up is in the core rule book it says that when a unit with this rule has assaulted in a turn it gains the bonuses. So if I am reading this correctly, the example is a very poor choice, and that when the unit with this special rule Assaults it gains the bonuses. Another thing is how are we suppose to add the iniative if thier normal attacks happen on I 4. We cannot add I to something if the attacks are happening on I4.

[Isryion]

Not to rehash this or anything, but has anyone cared to look in the core rule book for Furious charge? The reason why I ask this is the example given in the FAQ on stats that you apply the bonuses when you put them to use. The problem I am bringing up is in the core rule book it says that when a unit with this rule has assaulted in a turn it gains the bonuses. So if I am reading this correctly, the example is a very poor choice, and that when the unit with this special rule Assaults it gains the bonuses. Another thing is how are we suppose to add the iniative if thier normal attacks happen on I 4. We cannot add I to something if the attacks are happening on I4.

 

This is actually a really good point about the consistency of the rule, but alas, we measure after the movement of the assault.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Can I ask why it is after movement seeing how if the unit has it when the move is made? Since you could argue you gain the +1 to I and S stats when the move is made and measure then. Codex only overrides Rule book with specific instances, and FAQ's Never trump rules. Of coarse I may be way off on that.

[JamesI]

I think its measured after movement to prevent people from leaving their priests hidden in vehicles rather than joining the fight.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Since the rule book says that when a unit with this rule assaulted they gain the bonuses, so if you have the specail rule when you declare assault and then measure to see if you have the rule, then move into assault you would apply the I and S when you move.

 

I would say that the FAQ has a very bad example in when you measure, seeing how they are trying to anwser the question that is not there. When do I measure for FNP? Addtionally, if you do not have the specail rule before you assault then gain it afterwards would you get the bonuses for moving into range? The reason I ask this is in the rule book, you need the specail rule before moving into assault then gain the bonuses when you move into assault. If you do not have the rule when you are moving into assault how are you gaining a bonus that does not apply because you need to have it before the action is being taken.

 

If they are trying to prevent people from hiding thier priest why not chage the Blood Chalice rule? instead of "Any unit in six inches" to the unit he has joined.

 

I am a firm believer in getting stuck in with everything. First and foremost you can be a little devious when moving your squads around that have priests in them. Since they need to be in base to attack and be attacked you could argueably move your models in such a way as to stay in coherency, and prevent your preist from being hunted. I know that is a poor tactic, but with no invul, and only 1 wound you need to find ways of keeping your priest alive as long as possible.

[Morticon]

Kap - I agree 100% with you. Sadly, its all moot since the FAQ is pretty clear about it (and it would take precedence over the rules).

 

I dont know why they did it this way, but at least its been rules one way or another!

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Morticon, I hate to point out the problem with an anwser if all it does is raise more questions, and I do think that particular question and anwser is so poorly asked and anwsered that you have to search further to get an anwser that is clear.

 

I do not mean to rebelrouse or argue for no reason.

 

Q: "At what point does my model need to in range of a sanguinary priest to gain the bonuses of Furious Charge?"

 

A: "When you put the bonuses to use" "Example when the model makes its close combat attacks."

 

So now let me pose a question with an example. When I make my charge into assault and I stay within the range of my priest to gain the bonuses. I would not gain the Int bonus? INT only determines when attacks are made and you would not gain the bonus to INt until attacks are made by the Unit gaining the bonus. So is this not a wash you might gain the +1 Strength but since the Int part has already passed you do not get that bonus?

[Morticon]

At the start of the phase would you not determine who has the higher initiative?

At which point you gain your bonus.

 

 

I think it may just be a case of over-reading, honestly.

 

Lets run with two possibilities:

 

A: The FAQ implies that you need to be within 6" when attacks are made to gain both Init and S bonuses.

 

B: The FAQ implies that you need to be within 6" when attacks are made to gain S bonus, but due to interpretation of wording makes Init unusable.

 

 

Which seems more likely?

[Kapitalist-Pig]

I definatly understand what your saying. It is more then likely that you would use example A.

 

The only problem is the anwser says when you put the bonuses to use. So when you determine Int, you are not putting that stat to use. You use your init when you get to that round in combat.

 

It is like this, you start out at Int 10 and work your way down. So if you read the FAQ like it is worded and not on intent (as there is room both ways) you do not gain the bonus from FC for Int. Because it says when you would put the bonus to use. So you would have to go down to Init 4 to get the bonus.

 

And thank you for replying I have been having a hard time getting people around here to talk about it since they all hate GW FAQ's.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

Well, I don't get the problem. You get the benefits of FC when you are within 6" when the attacks are made. For FnP you have to be within range when the unit suffers damage/ wounds. Pretty clear I think. Or what is the problem?

[Kapitalist-Pig]

You only measure to the unit when the unit is attempting to use the bonus.

 

First, If you read the core rule book you need the rule before you assault. Seeing how it is currently worded any unit that charges into combat and ends thier charge movement within the six inch ranges gaings the specail rule, but you cannot retro actively gain the bonus. Second, you could argue since you are using the specail rule when you charge you measure before you move into combat and therefore put the +1 to int and str stats then. Third, and I do not think we have expressed this problem yet is what if your SP gets killed before you get to measure to the unit. There is a host of inconsistencies with the FAQ and the Core rule book.

 

Addtionally, I think I have mentioned it multiple time but the question and anwser is very poorly worded and leave more questions and interpetations then anwsers.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

I think it is not that problem as you think. Our codex beats the core rulebook. And how we, as BA players, have to interpret the Blood Calice (as our special rule) is clearly pointed out in the FAQ. So you move a unit to aid another one in an assault. Now you are within 6" to assault and within the calice. From that point you gain the +1 S and Ini. I really can't see your problem. Sorry.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

I do not think I was being clear. In order to gain the bonuses of Furios charge, never mind the measuring and such. You need the rule when you are assaulting. IE have the rule when you make you mover into assault.

 

The Blood Chalice only grants the ability.It does not meet the qualifications of the use. In other words since you are within six inches of the model you gain this ability, you need to use the activate the ability correctly. So if you charge and then get the Specail rule how are you justifying that you are able to use the +1 S and +1 init? Since you only gained the ability after you have made the move that enables the specail rule from issueing the bonuses.

 

Besides in the FAQ you only get the bonuses when you would put them to use. So you cannot get the bonus init, because you have to go to the models base init before applying the bonus. Thus creating a problem with the FAQ'ed anwser all together.

[Sanguinarian]

MAJOR overreading, Kap!

 

Let's break it down into little bits.

 

First, FC in the BRB is defined for those that naturally have it i.e. our DC, Orks and Khorne Berzerkers.

 

As it pertains to our Sanguinary Priests who possess Blood Chalices, which grants us +1S & +1I, the FAQ clearly states "when blows are exchanged" or close to it.

 

When does Initiative come into play? After declaring the charge; after moving into b2b; and after pile-in from enemy. Now we determine who strikes blows 1st: if one BA model is within 6" of our Sang. Priest. & Chalice, the entire BA unit is inspired to attack faster and stronger in the presence of Sanguinius' Holy Blood. Which means for the 1st Round of combat, we strike at +1I & +1S. Subsequent rounds are normal S & I.

 

Same goes for FNP: when wounds are taken, if one BA model is within 6" of our Sang. Priest & Chalice, the entire BA unit is inspired to shrug of wounds and continue the fight.

 

BRB is for those that have FC in their statline. C:BA FAQ is for the effects granted by our Sang. Priests specifically.

 

Hope this helps, if not, since it looks like you're new, trust us and go with it until it clicks. :yes:

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Thanks for everyone putting up with the shinannagins I have brought upon this fine institution of warhammer 40k players. No, I am not being rude or Sarcastic. I really am thankful for this kind of dialouge.

 

The FAQ actually says you apply the bonuses when they are being put to use. IE when attacks are being made. I assume this is what you are refering to when you say that C:BA FAQ is for the effects granted by SP. Only problem with your logic, is that he grants it, or in other words adds this specail ability to this unit. Unless I have been missing it in C:BA there is no entry for furious charge in the codex. There are units and things that add this but no entry, no definition, therefore we must look to the Core Rule Book. (Will start using CRB instead of typing it all out.)

 

Since the CRB stats that when a unit with this specail ability has assaulted, in that turn they gain +1 Init and S.

 

I guess I am thinking to deeply. Looking for more meaning behind what has been FAQ'd. I think I have been to influenced by those that would use a play on words to thier advantage.

 

If I think about it this way, in real time. If a unit moves within six inches it gains this ability, thus it has the ability when finishing the move. Therefore, it gains these bonuses, when we are trying to apply them.

 

IE. Unit out of range, assaults into range, gains the ability, as long as the unit remains in range during INIT they gain the bonus to Init when Init is being decided. (That confuses me since I see init always starting at 10 and moving down.) Or I guess when you get to Init 5 you delcare that the unit is within range and add the bonus to Init then. Instead of having to go to base Init, and then moving back up.

 

Still confused because you cannot attempt to use an ability, or bonus out of turn, unless specified in the rules.

 

I guess that the way the wording in the FAQ confounds me. The example wording is particularly confusing, because FC in the rule book stats such and such, and the C:BA does not have an entry for FC. FNP I have never had an issue with. It comes down to are you in range? yes, you get it then. If not, no.

 

Please forgive my longwindedness.

[Theikos]

Kaps does raise a very interesting question based on the current wording... Assuming that initiative is determined all at once before proceeding down from 10, what happens when:

 

An Assault Squad with Priest Charges into combat, the Priest is killed at I6+. Does the squad then hit at I5 or I4? I understand that they would strike at S4 and not S5, but there is an argument to be made that they should be hitting at I5.

 

 

Theikos

[Isryion]

I actually see Kaps point. I understand it doesn't work that way, but I actually appreciate his logic and a reason that the rule isn't internally consistent and makes more sense the previous way.

 

Just to give the discussion a tangent as well, I'm really not clear on how this prevents people from using a transport for their priest. You can pretty much still put the transport where you need it AND give yourself a bigger bubble, which will be more important. Thoughts?

[Priest33]

Around my area bonus's apply for the whole combat untill it ends. So if your priest is dead at the start due to some odd happenstance then the squad still gets its bonus's to int and str untill the end of that combat phase.

 

Ruled this way to avoid arguments.

 

-edit-

 

by Phase I mean the first turn of combat... not untill the combat ends which might be 3 turns...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My group plays it that if the Priest dies at the I6 step or higher then the squad(s) don't benefit from Furious Charge.

 

0b

[Priest33]

Yeah my group would paly that way untill a very vocal and "bossy" member decided to claim that you get the benifit at the start of combat regardless of what happens as it doesnt state anywhere in the rules that you lose the benifit if the priest gets sniped.

 

Can kinda see where hes coming from but its a pretty thing to do.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Well I would point to the CRB and specifically say that, the bonus is there because they fullfiled the requirements to get the +1 to Init and Str.

 

That being said, I would argue that when they are in range of the SP, and they charge, you would measure then for FC. The bonus is static in the CRB as there are no circumstances to lose FC in the turn you charged. So to argue that you have it to begin with, but now it has been taken away in the middle is in my opinion a very tricky thing. Seeing how you must fulfill certain requirement to get the +1 Init and +1 Stength. Now I know you going to say but the charcater that gives them the ability is gone before they use it. I would say not so, because FC stats any unit with this rule that has assaulted in this turn gains +1 Init and +1 Strength.

 

That is why I keep going back to the fact that the question and anwser and then the example are very poorly worded. The example if not only poor but contradicts the rule book. As far as I am concerned they screwed the pooch on this one. They set the precident that if any character dies before any of his benefits are used the squad he is with or affecting no longer get those things.

 

For example a Chaplain assaults with a squad into Mephiston. Mephiston destroys the chaplain, does the squad now get the benefit of the rerolls because the chaplain assaulted with them?

 

If you say yes, I would reply, "why when the chaplain is no longer there to grant this ability?"

[JamesI]

Kap, I would say the chaplains ability is worded differently than the priests, so it would apply if the chaplain were killed before it was used. The priest, based entirely on the rather poor wording of the FAQ, I would say if he dies before the ability is used it isn't there to use.