GW's New Blood Angels FAQ

[SamaNagol]

The document is quite clear. You measure for Furious Charge at the point at which you roll dice to hit. That is our new way of working it out. Even though it SHOULD be at the start of making your assault move. For some reason, whoever wrote this decided otherwise.

 

What you need to remember is, just because these people are paid to be games developers it does not mean they have a better grasp of the rules than everyone else. Which is a shame, but such is life. We have to work with what we've got.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

I hate to do this but, actually is says when the bonuses are being put to use. Then gives an example. In the BRB the FC rule is very straight forward about when applying the bonuses.

 

I just thought of something!!!! It says when applying the bonuses!! OMG this is so so so so horrible. It is asking when do you apply the bonuses!!! LOL, please for the sake of everyone's sanity I implore everyone to look at FC in the BRB.

 

This is probably one of the worst questions ever!! When would a modifier effect a models normal stats!!! When you are using those STATS ROFLMAO!

 

Please forgive the random bits of craziness!

[SamaNagol]

No, it says when do the models have to be in range to gain the bonus, and the answer is 'when the bonus is put to use'

[Kapitalist-Pig]

I state bonuses.....

 

It states bonuses in the FAQ. OH GREAT!!!! Here we go again lol!!

[SamaNagol]

Yes, so by RAW they never get to use Furious Charge.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Actually if you follow RAW FC confers bonus once the unit with the rule has assaulted.

[SamaNagol]

No, the Blood Chalice confers Furious Charge when you make your attacks, ie: roll to hit. However Furious Charge only works when you are making an assault move. Which you aren't. Because you already made it.

 

It's a poor answer. Not well thought through.

 

If they had said 'any unit which ends its assault move without any models within 6" of a Blood Chalice loses the benefit of Furious Charge' that would have been perfect.

 

Edit:

 

And as an aside, this ruling does nothing to stop people hiding their SPs in transports. Seeing as most of us use Rhinos or Razorbacks we cannot Assault out of them having moved anyway. What this means is.... in the turn our models disembark we are free to move our transports too. All you need to do is ensure that your transport ends up within ~7 inches of the squad you want to assault and you will be getting that Furious Charge bonus from the safety of your vehicle chasis. It just stops you driving the vehicle off somewhere else. Which isn't too bad.

[daboarder]

actually sama the ruling itself only stipulates that it taakes place when the bonus is used, the example is flawed as by the brb the bonus is taken earlier. I agree this answer was increadibly poorly written and has raised more querries than it solved.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

No, the Blood Chalice Grants FC and FNP to any unit WITHIN 6 inches. Does not say that they have to be making attacks. Again you are ignoring the fact that all the example does is give you an example. It does not hold to what FC says in the BRB. Since FC is in the BRB you follow the rules from there.

 

This may be besides the point but you cannot be granted FC bonuses without the FC rule. In other words, you need to fulfill the requirements of FC in order to put the bonuses on. If you only measure when it you make attacks then you did not have the rule when you assaulted.

 

Again, SP with Blood Chalice Grants any unit within 6 inches FC and FNP. Since there is no entry in the C:BA for FC you must follow the rule based in the BRB. The BRB says that when a unit with this special rule has assaulted in that turn they gain +1 Init and +1 Strength. So you are putting the FC rule to work when the unit has finished moving into assault and applying the +1 to both then.

 

Since we are stuck on this when attacks are made bit. Let me ask you a question.

 

When would the bonuses from FC be of use to the model?

 

I think the only logical answer is, when they are making their attacks. Or in other words when they are being used.... Now lets go back to the answer given by whoever started this whole debacle.

 

The First part is when you put the bonuses to use.

 

Now... if you follow any bit of the last couple of posts that I have placed here (don't worry most will not get it) you might see some insanely stupid method to make this rule obsolete. In other words, when are the bonuses to Init, and Strength added to the model. That is really the question. To anwser that question we do not look at the models,since they do not actually have an entry for the rule. WE LOOK AT THE RULE BOOK!!!. Where is the rule? You might ask. Page 75 in the BRB. That is the anwser. End of story. If your model has the rule when it assaults it gets the bonuses to USE when they are making thier attacks. When do they have to be in range of the SP in order to gain the bonuses of FC? When they charge, aka assault! Because they have to fulfill the ENTIRE requirement of FC in order to get the bonuses. Once they have fulfilled the requirements of said rule, they gain the bonuses. Not when they make thier attacks. Unless they (GW) come out and say that they are changing the way FC works you will never end this argument. Based solely on the fact that the models have gained FC then they enable FC modifiers by fulfilling the requirements, and FC grants the bonus when they have assaulted.

 

 

Or are you saying any unit within 6 inches of an SP gains the bonuses from FC in every combat? Seeing how we no longer need to fulfill the requirement of the FC rule, only that we need to be in range of the priest. :) :)

[SamaNagol]

Hmmm....

 

'When you put the bonuses to use' going by the Rulebook is indeed when you make an assault move. Their example however contradicts that 'when you make your attacks'

 

It is about as poorly worded an answer as is possible to write.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

All the example tells you is when the +1init and +1 Strength are being USED. Not when you apply the bonuses.

[daboarder]

So what do we think while keeping all this in mind? To me its fairly clear by the BRB that it is still when you make the assualt move but what do you guys think?

[Kapitalist-Pig]

I think it is fairly obvious that I feel the same way. Now to only get the rest of the world to see my infallible logic and extra brain power so I might take over the world!!!! Muwhahahahahahaha!

[SamaNagol]

I think that they actually need to get a few people who have logical minds to read through and discuss in a group these answers. Because things like this would surely come up?

[Kapitalist-Pig]

What? The whole problem with the FAQ or my infalliable logic and extra mind power so I should rule the world bit?

[Angelus Mortifer]

It's a contradictory Q&A but it still doesn't overrule the BRB for FC from what I can see. Thanks GW, you're the best!! :) :)

[SamaNagol]

So judges ruling? the "ie:" part is redundant and we still gain Furious Charge from when the charge is made?

[Morticon]

So what do we think while keeping all this in mind? To me its fairly clear by the BRB that it is still when you make the assualt move but what do you guys think?

 

I feel the BRB was clear enough, but GW have chosen to give us an FAQ with the following wording:

 

 

Q: At what point does my model need to be in rangeof a Sanguinary Priest to gain the bonuses of FuriousCharge?

A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when themodel makes its close combat attacks

 

When are the bonuses for Strength and Initiative used?

 

Are they put into use before the charge? The answer to this (rhetorical) question is No.

 

Furthermore, members here have misquoted the "ie:" as an "eg:" - theres a huge difference there.

 

Its telling us in black and white when its used.

 

There are no two ways about this. The FAQ dictates how FC and the priests interact with each other. It doesnt matter if the FC rule is in the BRB and not in the BA codex, because we have an over-ruling FAQ that tells us when and where this is measured from.

 

So judges ruling? the "ie:" part is redundant and we still gain Furious Charge from when the charge is made?

 

See above for arguments against.

[Morticon]

For further clarification, the use of "ie:" in this ruling allows us to essentially ignore the sentence before and replace it with the clarified specific situation following the ie:.

 

In that case, lets reword it:

 

 

Q: At what point does my model need to be in rangeof a Sanguinary Priest to gain the bonuses of FuriousCharge?

A: When the model makes its close combat attacks

 

Now, how on earth are people arguing that you are now allowed to measure from before the point they make their attacks?

[daboarder]

because the rulebook states they gain the bonus at a different time mort, quite frankly this whole thing and its implications is confusing the hell outta me

[SamaNagol]

Ok..... Then we never get Furious Charge.

 

If the only point at which you measure to confer the Furious Charge ability is as you are about to roll dice, you get nothing. Furious Charge as per the BRB is an ability which only works when you make an an assault move. When Blood Angels units make their assault move, they do not have Furious Charge, because it is only conferred upon then as they make their attacks.

 

It's a terribly, terribly badly worded answer.

 

As I said before, if they had simply said 'Units that end their assault move without a model within 6" of a Blood Chalice lose their Furious Charge' we'd have been fine and dandy.

[vahouth]

If the time in which the FC is used is overidden by the FAQ, one could argue that is also used EVERY time a model is about to attack!

EVERY turn! Since clearly we are not talking about the same FC rule the BRB has... :cry:

[SamaNagol]

It's a balls up is what it is.

[Morticon]

because the rulebook states they gain the bonus at a different time mort,

 

Yup. Agreed insofar as the rulebook states something different. However, this shouldnt factor into what the FAQ tells us to play.

The rulebook also says a few things contradictory to the decisions passed in the nid FAQ. (Ala libbies and Shadow and cover saves from Doom).

Regardless of those factors we use the FAQ - which is very specific at which point we get FC.

 

 

The argument for ignoring the FAQ and using the BRB only, relies solely on the fact that strictest interpretations of the FAQ disallow the use of FC at all.

 

This is, not only, fallacious and incorrect (irrelevant) as an argument, it is (poor) rules lawyering that gives BA players a very bad rep.

 

 

If your only two options (by the rules) are:

 

A: No FC at all,

 

or

 

B: FC when we make our attacks -

 

 

then suuuuurely players should know when to make those attacks.

 

 

 

At the end of the day arguments like these are entirely academic. Its like the monkeys still arguing that we cant use our 5+ save for vehicles from Shield.

In any large gaming group worth its salt, or any respected tournament circuit, it will not be played in another way - especially not in a way as favourable to the BA as some people are making it out to be.

 

My advice would be to take this, first, to the OR and then to another non-marine-centric board (like dakka/warseer) to see what the greater community says there.

Though it should be painfully obvious.

[daboarder]

Fair enough, if thats the case then its now possible for I6 enemies to whack our priest and hurt our assualt potential right? Or is it done before any attacks?