How do we fight the Grey Knights?

[DarkGuard]

The thing that concerns me about GK is I'm worried that simply grounding their rides won't at all take them out of the fight. My effective range is 24"...if I'm stationary. Their effective range is 24"...on the move. Their foot troops can out shoot me with stormbolters and psycannons...the latter of which make me nervous. 4 Str 7 rending shots is at best a lot of armor saves. At worst, I'm down four more marines with each cast of his dice.

 

Assaulting them seems like suicide, but I certainly would charge them before they could charge me, given the chance. (ie if it can't be avoided, cut projected losses in half by stealing the charge.) If I understand Purifiers correctly (here at work, without a codex at hand) they only get their "WE'RE ON FIRE!" pre-combat hits on the charge. Otherwise, it really is flat out insane to charge or be charged by Purifiers.

 

I think my long range anti-tank teams will ignore their tanks altogether and focus on Purifiers.

 

Has anybody fielded or thrown down with a wound-allocated Paladin team? Are they as durable as Wound-alloc Nobz? In theory they must be more so, given the 2+/5++ (4++ in some cases), one guy with a 2++ in melee, 2 wounds a pop, and each with a unique load out. I'm curious to see if 1. it's happening in practice, and 2. how good marine players are at it; ork players have been doing it since late 4th ed. :D

 

All valid points, GKs are hard to stop in the mobility department as they can move and shoot to full effect a lot of the time. However, if you ground their transports in the first turn they have to footslog to midfield, which is where they fight best.

 

My understanding of Purifiers is every combat round, regardless of who charged, so yes, charging them is still suicide, for GEQ. MEQ isn't too bad, they wound on a 4+, and you have a 3+ save, you're only likely to lose one, maybe two guys.

 

I really like the idea of a wound allocated Paladin team myself. I think it could work, as they're likely to have a HQ with them to provide more wounds and 4++ from shooting, have decent shooting themselves, and still have at least 2 halberds, maybe 3, in addition to a daemonhammer and warding stave. And if they take the Apothecary they have FnP. That being said, they'll be easy to counter then Nobz, in particular Nob Bikerz. Unless they have Shrouding provided by a Libby they won't have a cover save unless in cover, which means if you can drop a Vindicator template, or even just melta shots on them they'll buckle.

[thade]

I really like the idea of a wound allocated Paladin team myself. I think it could work, as they're likely to have a HQ with them to provide more wounds and 4++ from shooting, have decent shooting themselves, and still have at least 2 halberds, maybe 3, in addition to a daemonhammer and warding stave. And if they take the Apothecary they have FnP. That being said, they'll be easy to counter then Nobz, in particular Nob Bikerz. Unless they have Shrouding provided by a Libby they won't have a cover save unless in cover, which means if you can drop a Vindicator template, or even just melta shots on them they'll buckle.

I actually intend to leave at least one or two paladins with force swords for the 4++ save (closest they get to a "storm shield" in that unit). 5++ saves won't make me feel good about myself when they get charged by a lighting claw-wielding vanguard.

[DarkGuard]

Either way I think that wound allocation Paladins are a fantastic example of a fluffy but yet competitive unit. Fluffy in that the Codex details that each warrior takes a weapon that suits them, instead of being given one as standard. So a mix of weapons satisfies this, and as Apothecaries are accompanied by them in fluff, that as well is fine for fluffy reasons.

 

And their competitive thanks to a good amount of shooting through a potential two psycannons for 5 men, plus good combat thanks to WS5, 2A and multiple NFWs, and of course their durability through 2 wounds, Terminator armour and a potential FnP. Definitely a unit I'd take when I get round to playing Grey Knights (I stupidly bought new Nids rather than wait for Grey Knights).

[thade]

Definitely a unit I'd take when I get round to playing Grey Knights (I stupidly bought new Nids rather than wait for Grey Knights).

I've got most of two units worth of PAGK (from my previous foray into the old ally-rules), and a boxed LR from Xmas...so I think I only need five or six boxes to get a full force. ("Only five or six," he says.)

[Something Wycked]

My understanding of Purifiers is every combat round, regardless of who charged, so yes, charging them is still suicide, for GEQ. MEQ isn't too bad, they wound on a 4+, and you have a 3+ save, you're only likely to lose one, maybe two guys.

I just had a sudden insight because of you, DG. I was going to say the power goes off in the initial turn of assault, regardless of who charged, but IIRC the RAW states any time the Purifiers charge an enemy unit or are charged by an enemy unit.

 

The inisight is that if the Purifiers are already locked in assault from a previous turn and get charged by a second enemy unit, Cleansing Flame may be used again and it will affect all enemy units that are involved in the same assault.

 

I also feel the need to clarify as a just-in-case: the 2++ and 4++ saves they can get from the Warding Stave and Nemesis Force Sword are in assault only. I know you fellows likely know this, but someone unfamiliar with the codex may not :P

 

Also, wound allocation can really work well with Paladins. The key is to ignore their 2+ and potential FnP with a S8 weapon and force them to make a lot of 5++ saves (or cover saves) or lose a model for each failed save. They are extraordinarily resilient to anything not AP2 or better; things like Krak missiles allow them to take a 2+ and FnP before a model is removed, and I won't even get into lesser weapons.

 

If your army is equipped correctly, Paladins really aren't scary; a squad of 10 with 4 Psycannons and an Apothecary is 705 points. Add in the common option of Draigo to make them Troops and they're now 11 models, 24 wounds, for 980 points- and that's without the Brotherhood Banner or master-crafted weapons or anything else tacked on top. I don't know about you, but my favorite C:SM/BA units stack up really well against these guys :)

[DarkGuard]

Well I was proven wrong about the Purifiers then, just the first round of assault then (except for additional charges after as you rightly say Something Wycked).

 

The problem with Paladins is that not every army is going to have massed melta if they're being balanced, I know I wouldn't encourage it. Looking at my army I only have 4 multi-meltas, and a demo cannon. Bringing all 4 multi-meltas to bear will be hard, and the demo cannon may not even fire if it does its job properly. Of course, Vulkan lists in particular will find them easy to deal with.

 

Do remember though that they will not receive FnP from krak missiles, as it falls under the "weapon at double strength over toughness or more" category. If they were T5 then that would be worst and then they'd get it from krak missiles. That makes it somewhat tempting to shoot krak missiles at them as one one and that's two wounds gone.

 

The major thing about Paladins though is that I don't think they're meant to be a cost effective close combat and shooting monstrosity. Rather, they're supposed to be a resilient bullet magnet, drawing fire away from the rest of the force. And given the dangers they possess in combat and shooting, that's certainly something that will be happen. Sometimes units like Paladins and Vindicators, while not the best unit on paper and therefore shouldn't be prioritised first, are prioritised first because of that destructive potential they possess. Used correctly, Paladins can be pivotal to a Grey Knight force and hard to deal with, I know I'd find them hard to deal with.

[Something Wycked]

Ah, thats true, had forgotten that the Krak missiles ID and ignore FnP XD

 

With your army, DG, I'd say your most effective way to deal with Paladins is to hide your Vindicator, keep it safe until the Paladins are in the open, and then pounce from cover and pound them with everything- spend a whole turn of your entire army firing on the Paladins and there shouldn't be much left of them unless your opponent is a god at rolling 5++ saves.

[DarkGuard]

Ah, thats true, had forgotten that the Krak missiles ID and ignore FnP XD

 

With your army, DG, I'd say your most effective way to deal with Paladins is to hide your Vindicator, keep it safe until the Paladins are in the open, and then pounce from cover and pound them with everything- spend a whole turn of your entire army firing on the Paladins and there shouldn't be much left of them unless your opponent is a god at rolling 5++ saves.

 

Most of my opponents are good at rolling Terminator armour and invulnerable saves :devil:.

 

But I agree, with best weapon is the Vindicator. However, it is only one shot, and if it misses it's dead next turn, so like you say I'll need a few units all ready to pounce on them. If my Tactical squads were stationary a couple of plasma gun shots and a MM shot should also help.

[Darkmagi]

Actually guys the "Cleansing Flame" power is more evil then your giving credit... pg 31 C: GK "This power can be used during the assault phase in either players turn." So in reality it doesn't matter if they are charged, or charging, or locked in combat... they can cast it no matter what

[thade]

Actually guys the "Cleansing Flame" power is more evil then your giving credit... pg 31 C: GK "This power can be used during the assault phase in either players turn." So in reality it doesn't matter if they are charged, or charging, or locked in combat... they can cast it no matter what

So. Light them up with holy bolters on their way in. Stay away. Keep firing. Got it.

 

I admit that I am worried about Purifiers.

[DarkGuard]

Ah, that was the way I first read if Darkmagi, thanks for recorrecting me.

 

@thade, I wouldn't be too worried from a Marine perspective. At most they get 10 additional attacks, hitting on 4s and we get a 3+ save. You can also take FnP against that. I'm more worried about their multiple I6 power weapon attacks. Indeed, I'd be surprised if I player used Cleansing Flame against MEQ, I'd say S5 power weapons will be more useful, especially if you're using halberds. I am worried about Cleansing Flame versus my Tyranids though, that's when it gets nasty. Still, no matter the situation and army, they are an "avoid at all costs unit".

[Something Wycked]

Actually guys the "Cleansing Flame" power is more evil then your giving credit... pg 31 C: GK "This power can be used during the assault phase in either players turn." So in reality it doesn't matter if they are charged, or charging, or locked in combat... they can cast it no matter what

Eh, I can see where the confusion is coming from. Here's the whole sentence:

 

This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck.

It doesn't explicitly say it can be used after charging, or after being charged, or if it can be used in a continuing assault; all it mentions is the timing of the power's usage, which is "after you do everything but strike blows."

 

So maybe it can be used every turn, even in a continuing combat ;)

 

But yes, what it comes down to is outside of Terminators/Paladins, Purifiers are the closest thing Grey Knights get to dedicated assault troops, and they really can do it well. Shoot the assaulty stuff ;)

[DarkGuard]

I'd say that the reference to after assault moves being made isn't about that combat, but is simply saying that after you or your opponent has moved everything that is assaulting, but before you strike any blows in the combat then you roll it. So you charge everything first, then when you get to that combat you do Cleansing Flame before you strike any blows.

[stuckinbermuda]

My first game against GKs was a three way game with Eldar as well, it was a small 750pt. list and I didn't get much experience from it except to use my TF to deny cover saves, which worked very nice.

 

The second game was 1500pts and I lost due to the GK CC with their power weapons and also having really bad dice rolls, also took the whole game to shoot down the DK <_< I had brough a libby and it really just hid behind cover midfield but only managed to block two powers and that was it...

 

Third game was awesome, we had four objectives and I placed my two right in the middle of the board where he would have to go in the open to get them. I had loaded up with as much AP1 and AP2 weapons as I could, three devastator squads, two tacs in rhinos, dropped my libby for a chappy, and brought two melts dreads (i plan to make them Asscans eventually). The best squad I brought was a full sniper squad with Telion and a HB.

 

I set up with my whole army covering each other but with great fire lanes on all the objectives and he set up with two squads on one objective in cover and the rest of his army trying to sweep up my left flank while trying to sneak a squad of interceptors to my right while keeping in cover and out of LoS. First turn he teleported his DK right into my lines to try and tie up my shooting but I managed to drop it with my first round of shooting and from there on I was just dropping fire onto him as he approached and whenever he was in range to shoot me I poured it on and wiped his squads out in a turn or two. Twice he got into assault range, with his libby and again with the interceptors but each time I fell back and left him out in the field to be hammered. I had planned on using PK in larger games with my sternguard but I think being able to choose to fall back is going to be a key tactic fighting GKs. I even fell back from the one objective I held at the end of turn 5 in order to hammer down his libby, so he couldn't assault me and contest it, to win the game by clearing the table. First time I've cleared the table since third edition which felt nice.

 

I did manage to scare him off from assaulting my devastators with the dreads hanging nearby since he knew if he got too close I would move a dread in and keep him tied up and with three devastator squads I had redundancy even if he did take one out. I ignored the vindicare until turn 6 and by then it had taken out my chappy, a dread, two plasma cannons and a PF sergeant. His mistake was not taking the risk of focusing on my troops (the scouts never even got shot at but hurt him a little every turn) and also having weak numbers of troops and small squads. Next game he says he is bringing out his GK GM and changing up a bit. He also spent a lot of points on upgrades and weapons, lots of MC weapons so it was almost a twin linked army there was so much re-rolling but from my three game experience: outnumbering, outshooting, denying armor or cover saves and outranging GKs have been the key for me so far.

 

Lots of good info in this thread, I'm going to try adding Typhoons and a razorback counter assault squad for my 2k list :D

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for taking the time to post that stuckinbermuda. Its good to see that you learnt how to counter the Grey Knight's weaknesses, and I imagine as a result your 3rd game was a good one because of it. The 4th will be good, because then your opponent will be clued up, so should be interesting.

[thade]

Great post, stuckinbermuda; thanks for sharing!

[spartan249]

All of my local GK players are also stocking up on a lot of upgrades for their units, and I'm finding these sorts of armies very easy to deal with due to their minuscule numbers. The terminator based armies in particular are not very frightening, especially when caught out of cover.

 

The one thing I'm keeping my eye out for are the vindicare assassins and the techmarines. I'm leery of the bolster ruin + stealth trick, as I know how effective it can be.

[maturin]

GK FAQ is out and there's some relevant information for this thread. Off the top of my head:

 

1) GKGM's Grand Strategy can make walkers scoring.

 

2) Dreadknight with Nemesis Doomfist strikes at STR 6, not 10.

 

3) Coteaz's troop henchmen take up FOC slots.

 

4) Nemesis falchions grant +1 attack total, not +2.

 

5) Psychic powers can stack (new BRB FAQ), so watch out if a squad has multiple IC's with hammerhand. STR for the unit could get up to 6 or 7.

 

 

erm...that's all I can remember right now.

[jeffersonian000]

You missed the best one - a Daemon Prince is a Daemon regardless of codex.

 

SJ

[thade]

All of my local GK players are also stocking up on a lot of upgrades for their units, and I'm finding these sorts of armies very easy to deal with due to their minuscule numbers. The terminator based armies in particular are not very frightening, especially when caught out of cover.

The lack of models is appealing to me, actually. I enjoy uphill battles; it's why I play SM in the first place. (Also, the Emperor Protects in that I make armor saves like whoa.) So I see this from two perspectives.

 

GK Perspective: How can I make so few models effective/terrifying/not die in three turns?

 

SM Perspective: How can I make so few models ineffective/namby-pamby/totally die in three turns?

 

I don't know the answer to the first one. The answer to the second one, in my mind, is superior mobility and volume of shots.

[spartan249]

Well, terminators are one thing, but I've played against a few people bringing Paladins, and so far they have not been able to do much of anything before they are obliterated. Two turns of lascannon fire followed by a TH/SS charge is usually enough to wipe them out with minimal losses for me, and once that's done, there's almost nothing else in the army to worry about.

 

My answer to the second question is similar. Mobility and a relatively high quantity of quality shots.

 

Of course, I still haven't found a way to attack the 2+ cover save bunker of death... and I'm beginning to feel that I won't ever find the answer with C:SM.

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for posting the updates maturin, that will be helpful and informative and for this thread.

 

As to the FAQ, I feel that it's evened things up. Things like the "shunt punch" have been banned, which is fair and prevent the GKs from being broken, but they've been handed a load of bonuses vs Chaos, Eldar and Tau armies thanks the definitions of Daemons and Plasma.

 

As for Space Marines, the falchions being only +1A helps us in that they'll never get taken, but then that means more people will get halberds, which isn't good. The stacking as well is nasty, but some perspective, we're only really going to see +2S at most because of this, from GMs and Libbys plus their squads. And GMs have rad grenades so you only ever really need one of them off. Should be interesting to see what happens.

[Aidoneus]

Yeah, as (what I think is) a run-of-the-mill veteran GK player, I really wasn't surprised by the FAQ. The one thing that sorta got me was the S6 Doomfists on the Dreadknight. Especially since they still give +1 attack, which should also only apply to walkers. :wallbash: That just seems inconsistent! Otherwise though, this is exactly how reasonable people should have been playing things all along, IMHO.

 

Also, I definitely agree about GK armies with tons of upgrades not being scary. Model count is everything in 40k, and with the best basic troopers in the game, not taking as many of those as possible is a sin. My basic list always starts with two 10-man Strike Squads with psycannons, psybolts, and master-crafted thunder hammer, and either 10 Interceptors or 10 Purifiers with the same upgrades. At around 1500 I have another identical Strike squad, and then maybe a 5-man termy squad. All this supported by two psyfilemen, an incinerator/sword Dreadknight, either a GM or OX Inq (depending on points), and possibly a Vindicare.

 

Basically, I'm playing 5th ed GK the same way I played 4th ed GK: bodies, bodies, and more bodies. No transports. Shooting at 24" is the primary M.O. with CC only as needed (either mop-up or if he makes it to my lines). The S5 storm bolters are honestly the real work-horses of the list.

 

I honestly think this is the sort of list you really need to look out for. The amount of fire it puts out is truly prodigious, and that many force weapon-wielding bodies in CC is just scary.

 

Now I just need to wait for the rest of the GK community to catch on. They all seem to be distracted by shiny things, and obsessed with bells and whistles. :)

[thade]

The one thing that sorta got me was the S6 Doomfists on the Dreadknight. Especially since they still give +1 attack, which should also only apply to walkers. ;) That just seems inconsistent!

It's not that weird if you think of the Dreadknight as a MC instead of a walker. ;) He's got two identical melee weapons; the second awards him a bonus off-hand attack in the assault phase, per BRB Assault chapter. Not so weird at all. I would like for him to be Str 10, but the Greatsword is pretty cool regardless.

 

Basically, I'm playing 5th ed GK the same way I played 4th ed GK: bodies, bodies, and more bodies. No transports. Shooting at 24" is the primary M.O. with CC only as needed (either mop-up or if he makes it to my lines). The S5 storm bolters are honestly the real work-horses of the list.

I find this one of the scarier prospects of GK: an effective footslogging list. Servo-skulls, a handful of purgation squads or mystics in transports roll to mid-field and in come the Deep Strikers. In position and maximally effective without exposing themselves to fire as they get into position. They will pile themselves nicely into template-formation as they come in...but Purg Squads may take away our Vindicators with some Psycannon hate.

 

Now I just need to wait for the rest of the GK community to catch on. They all seem to be distracted by shiny things, and obsessed with bells and whistles. :drool:

Am not! Well, maybe.

[Something Wycked]

I honestly think this is the sort of list you really need to look out for. The amount of fire it puts out is truly prodigious, and that many force weapon-wielding bodies in CC is just scary.

 

Now I just need to wait for the rest of the GK community to catch on. They all seem to be distracted by shiny things, and obsessed with bells and whistles. :)

The core of my list is 2 Strike Squads as described and 2 units of Interceptors with identical gear :lol:

 

I also wanted to pass along a quick and dirty batrep from a proxy battle I had last night. A friend of mine who plays DA/BA/Orkz has met a guy who has a Draigowing army. I've wanted to try out Draigowing for myself to see how it works, and it serves the double purpose of showing my friend what he'll be getting into by going up against the new guy.

 

My list was 10 Paladins, 5 Paladins, and Draigo, with the full 6 Psycannons, an Apothecary in the big squad, and melee weapons tailored for maximal wound allocation shenanigans.

 

My friend brought Plasma Angels. (Proxied with my Marine models, because I haven't found a way to get all these combi weapons lol) 10 and 5 Sternguard- every one without a Plasma Cannon had combi-plasmas; 10 Tacticals with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, and combi-plasma on the Sergeant, accompanied by a Captain with combi-plasma. 5 Scouts with a Locator Beacon and a Baal Predator. The 5 man Sternguard was in a Drop Pod, and the 10 man Sternguard took a Land Raider Crusader.

 

Now that you have the OOB, I'll sum up; we played Annihilation because that was the agreed-upon battle type between my friend and the new guy. When the game ended on turn 6, all I had left was Draigo with a single wound. All he had left was the Land Raider, the Baal Predator, and the Drop Pod. I won 5 kill points to 2- against Plasma Angels. Granted, if the game had gone on to turn 7 I would have been tabled. If he had taken either of my Vindicators (or both) he would have won, and would have suffered far fewer casualties as well.

 

Draigowing is certainly powerful on its own, but it will not perform well unless you use wound allocation shenanigans to their fullest. At one point I had 10 of 11 models in the Draigo squad having suffered 1 wound, Draigo included, before any of them died. If each Paladin wasn't his own wound allocation group, I could have lost 5 of the 10 Paladins at that point instead of still having them all on the table.

 

All of the plasma did well in putting wounds on the Paladins, especially in ignoring Feel no Pain on the large squad. I think I only failed two or three armor rolls to the bolt weapons the whole game, the plasma did all the work. I would have been in more trouble if he could have inflicted instant death via Vindicator because 5++ just allows too many wounds through; I'd be less worried about krak missiles because of the 2+ save.