How do we fight the Grey Knights?

[Captain Idaho]

What I like about your lists Something Wycked is they aren't the usual Net-lists yet are effective. It's something I have strived to do myself actually. Of course I would imagine against AV14 you could struggle a little, depending on whether you can close the distance. But then that isn't that big deal since you move so fast with over half the list.

[greatcrusade08]

What I like about your lists Something Wycked is they aren't the usual Net-lists yet are effective. It's something I have strived to do myself actually. Of course I would imagine against AV14 you could struggle a little, depending on whether you can close the distance. But then that isn't that big deal since you move so fast with over half the list.

 

i agree, props for mr Wycked for a unique army list and direction, id imagine mech in general could cause headaches, youd do some damage but could do far more if the units were in the open turn one.. id imagine a couple of DKs could deal with a LR i cant see someone dealing with two AND a host of other units, especially after they have hurt you already.

its interesting.. i like it

[DarkGuard]

Yep, no mech at all, so Riflemen and Melta are fairly wasted points against me. I am footslogging the Strike Squads- the one that is arriving on turn 2 is doing so courtesy of The Summoning and a nearby skull. The other will be reserved to Deep Strike on my objective or deployed nearby but hidden.

 

Most of the vehicles would have to be dealt with by Storm Bolter fire; only thing they won't be able to touch is AV12+ (every model except the Ghost squad have Psybolts), and I imagine most of your vehicles are AV11/10. I've been kicking around the idea of combat-squadding the Interceptors to put the Hammer in one half and the two Psycannons in the other, so I'm not wasting a bunch of Stormbolter fire on vehicles they can't hurt. That way, the Psycannons (hopefully) crack open the vehicle, and then the Hammer squads can shoot & assault the squad inside (or just follow up with a Hammer assault if the Psycannons don't do the job).

 

I've been thinking up tactics that will force some opponents to come to me... hard to do with Grey Knights but I think I can make it happen :P

 

True most of my vehicles are AV10-11, only 3 are AV12 or more, and one of the them is side AV11, so per JKs tactica it's heavy to the front, light to the side. Silly Vindicator. You'd probably end up forcing disembarks, if only so I can fire at your troops because my vehicles would be shaken and stunned so much. And then that just plays into your hands because you want me disembarked.

 

But yeah, it's a fantastic list, and a real breath of fresh air in an environment full of mech lists. It also gives me hope, because I know if I were going to do a Grey Knights list I would attempt a footslogging list, to give me something different to my mech Marines. Best of luck, I hope you win a lot of games with this list :).

[spartan249]

So what's the plan for dealing with Grey Knight cover save shenanigans? I haven't seen it mentioned here once, but 2+ cover saves for the entire infantry portion of the army is a very real possibility. How will this be counter-acted, especially given that anything short of terminators will be stepping into very dangerous territory by approaching this fort?

 

I, for one, have yet to find the answer, but my SM models are limited, thus my capability for fielding the correct answer.

[DarkGuard]

Trying to figure out how they're getting the 2+. I imagine 4+ cover, Shrouding giving Stealth, and either Techmarine Bolster Ruins or going to ground. Anyway, I'd really like to say shoot flamers at them, like with Pathfinders, or heavy flamers like with Scouts, but as we know they're getting armour saves from them. Of course, a 3+ is easier to fail than a 2+. The one template weapon we have that can destroy them is of course the flamestorm cannon, killing on 2s. And with their lack of melta, and limited Vindicares then your Redeemer could last a while. However, a Redeemer will take a lot of points. Blood Angels of course have the Baal, but at that range it's not too hard to get a psycannon to the side armour.

 

Of course, dedicated assault units on the weaker troops, and mass firepower. The conditions for this 2+ cover save seem hard to replicate everywhere, and definitely if bolster ruin is used their deployment is limited. If going to ground then keep forcing them to do so, as they won't be able to do anything the next turn.

[spartan249]

Every time I leverage my LRs against them, I lose both rather quickly. I'm not so sure that LRs are the answer here. I'm also trying to take advantage of my superior range with the army, but that 2+ cover save is driving me insane. If my Librarian gets anywhere near enough to try to hood the GK librarian, he's almost guaranteed to be dead. I have yet to successfully hood Shrouding, and even if I did hood it, I'm still contending with almost 40 guys with 3+ cover saves. In the one instance where I did get close with terminators, I got manhandled by the 12 DCA with the OX inquisitor tootin grenade hell.

 

I know exactly how powerful 2+ cover can be, but this is ridiculous. I can't get in range to flame (Speeders get ripped apart instantly, Dreads just fall over and die, I can't deep strike because of warp quake, and the LRRs I tried out got obliterated by the vindicare that I can't ever kill), I can't put out enough saves to even have a hope of killing enough guys in 5 or 6 turns.

 

To top it all off, I'm not untouchable at range. He's also tootin a freakin conversion beamer hidden in one of his squads, meaning I have 10 wounds with 2+ cover saves to get through before I even threaten the beamer. Meanwhile, this thing's devastating my LRs and dreads with near impunity.

 

I used to think the Kan Wall was the list from hell, but this list is a really close contender for that title. It's annoyingly effective at shutting me out of mid-range and obnoxiously resilient at range.

[greatcrusade08]

what is your opponent putting in the bolstered terrain for 2+ saves?

if its strike squads or the jumpy dudes, send in your own assaultists to get rid of them.. low attacks means they arent as dangerous as people make out..

plus if you send in things with a good inv like hammernators or LotD youll be fine.

me i use throw away troops like assault scouts, high number of attacks and bodies, low overall cost

[spartan249]

Well... if you read the last part of the first paragraph, you'll notice that he has 12 Death Cult Assassins led by an inquisitor using Psycho and Rad grenades on guard duty, which obliterates anything that gets close enough to assault. I've thrown Lysander and his Hammer friends at them and got utterly wiped out without doing anything. The strike squads themselves aren't invincible, but their guards are insanely powerful on the charge. Top that with the fact that anything but assault terminators are going to have a seriously hard time winning against a strike squad in close combat, and there aren't many options I can bring to bear here.

 

The best I've managed is a tie in multiple objectives, and that's because I was pulling the same crap with scouts in a bolstered ruin.

 

I suppose a massed charge of scouts could do some appreciable damage, but would it be enough? I have difficulty imagining that any less than 60 scouts like this would even have a chance of killing all the knights. Add into that the fact that he could just screen with the DCA, who will strike first with 36 power weapon attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s, with who knows what else happening from the psychotroke grenades, and I think the prospects of even a massive alpha strike with scouts are a little dim.

[Captain Idaho]

We have to keep asking, how is he getting 2+ cover saves? It sounds like that is incorrect. Unless he is using Techmarines and you play on a board with lots of ruins which is a waste of points really therefore making his army even smaller.

[spartan249]

A techmarine with bolster ruins, and a librarian with Shrouding.

 

It is small in a sense, but what's there never dies. I have yet to wipe a squad, despite numerous playtests. I've come close to killing the DCAs before, but that's merely because I struck first.

 

From what I've seen, Tau and IG have the tools needed to dismantle the list (Namely large amounts of fire and cover defeating mechanics), but neither my C:SM list or my C:DA list have been able to successfully engage this army. In both cases, I outnumber the GK army easily, but my units die a hell of a lot faster and do far less damage.

 

2000 pts "GK Army from Hell"

HQ

Librarian: Shrouding, Warp Rift, Sanctuary - 165 pts

OX Inquisitor: Hammerhand, Psycho & Rad 'nades - 80 pts

Troops

Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts, MC Dhammer - 255 pts

Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts, MC Dhammer - 255 pts

Strike Squad: 10 Knights, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts, MC Dhammer - 255 pts

Elites

Techmarine: Beamer, 3 Skulls - 119 pts

Vindicare: 145 pts

Henchmen: 12 DCA - 180 pts

Heavy Support

Land Raider Crusader: Mmelta, SLight - 266 pts

Purgation Squad: 10 Knights, 4 Psycannons - 280 pts

 

This is the exact list he's using. Maybe you guys can find the weakness I can't.

[greatcrusade08]

thunderfire the DCA. then assault the strike marines and purgs, one attack a piece makes them very soft.

 

bottom line is that GK work best at 24" or less, if they are castled in ruins, stand outside the 24" mark and make them come for you.. eventyually they will have to leave that little fortress to take obs and whatnot.. alternatively make sure the board has less ruins, or that you take the side with the ruins on.

[DarkGuard]

How many people is he chucking into those ruins? In multi-objective games if you go first I'd stick a couple of objectives outside big ruins, it stops him from sticking his objective inside, and he'll have to come out to claim it, leaving the safety of his ruins.

 

Is he expecting to play much? I mean, I'd be getting pretty annoyed by this, and a static 2+ cover save firebase seems a bit out of the spirit of Grey Knight play and all that. Perhaps two LRRs? His Vindicare can only take one out each turn. I'm really stumped on this one. Of course, you have mobility, but when it doesn't die, it can be a bit of moot point.

[spartan249]

I have had the best luck in multiple objectives, as it seems like the worst mission for him to play. However, that also comes down to the luck of the dice. We first have to roll an odd number of objectives, then I have to win the roll off to see who places the objectives. If it's even, then I'm right back where I started.

 

As for thunderfiring the DCA, the LRC has to be cracked open first. While I have managed it a few times, it's utter hell, as I'm contending with a cover save most of the time (he keeps it cooped up either in or near the ruins), which is sometimes 3+ if the ruin is big enough. Compounded with the fact that I can't get melta anywhere near it, and it's absolutely retarded. The skulls prevent infiltration, warp quake prevents deep strike, and ungodly amounts of S5 and S7 ward speeders and their ilk away.

 

Most of the time, he manages to fit everyone into one piece of ruin. These are usually 10"x10", most of the time with multiple levels, so it's no difficult task to put half of the models into the terrain with the Librarian at the epicenter.

 

And no, whenever he plays non-Tau/IG armies, he sits in that ruin and waits patiently for his opponent to lose patience and try to get in close. Speaking as a tactician, it's an admirable strategy, as it's forcing the fight to flow on his terms and on his chosen killing ground. However, playing against the damn thing is a pain in the rear.

 

I've already tried two LRRs with flamer hell sternguard (10 combi-flamers), but the damn things got immobilized and wrecked before reaching their target, ironically with little help from the vindicare. I suppose part of it was bad luck, but the chances of him achieving those kinds of results consistently seem pretty high, as those psycannons are bound to get one, maybe two results per volley, and the vindicare is retardedly effective against LRs.

[maturin]

You could try to be pseudo-IG and whirlwind him from afar. You should be able to from outside of vindicare range, or from behind cover. Maybe even use heavy bolter spam to force saves from afar?

 

But I don't like to tailor lists. I'd say that the best counter is just not to play his game. It'll make for very boring games and a lot of draws, but if that's the game he's playing, then so be it. Better than a string of losses...

 

If you must, must crack that nut, then I'd say sacrificial units is the key. Bait his DCA's with an assault-y unit, get them out in the open, and then shoot them dead. It'll be tricky but you ought to be able to do it. Then your second line assault units can assault the GK's. Try some Vanguard vets with a couple of storm shields (no jump packs).

[Something Wycked]

Captain Idaho, GC08, DarkGuard, I really appreciate those comments from the three of you. Experienced B&C'ers, experienced players, it gives me hope that this list might be able to work. I'm honestly really worried that it doesn't have the kind of firepower to do well in tourneys- I have no plasma cannons, lascannons, demolisher cannons, no big cannons at all! :P lol

 

Most of the time, he manages to fit everyone into one piece of ruin. These are usually 10"x10", most of the time with multiple levels, so it's no difficult task to put half of the models into the terrain with the Librarian at the epicenter.

@ spartan249: He has one weapon at 72" range and one weapon at 36" range, and everything else is 24" or less and immobile.

 

Before the game starts, identify the range bands of the Vindicare and Conversion Beamer. Keep your vehicles inside the 48" range of the beamer (deny him the Str10 AP1) and outside the 36" range of the Vindicare, and bring 48" range weaponry aplenty. If he wants to sit inside that 10x10 ruin and absorb your shots while plinking back with only a Strength 8 AP 4 small blast, then pick him apart with as much fire as you can put on him.

 

These are going to be a exceptionally boring games, because you can't close the distance into the Vindicare/GK killzones, and he can't close the distance into your killzone at risk of losing his cover save. But that's the price he pays (and forces on you) for playing such a static game.

[DarkGuard]

@ Something Wycked, the main thing about your list is that you don't need all that long range firepower. The way you seem to be playing it you're skipping the long-range firepower and going straight to the mid-range shooting and close range encounters. You've still got the tools to get guys out of tanks, and you force your opponent to react to you, as opposed to the other way around. If anything it will certainly be a fun list to play, and one that many people may struggle with due to its unconventional nature, I know that I would.

[Something Wycked]

:P Thanks once again. That was the general idea- Grey Knights have a range problem. I wanted to find a way to solve it :lol:

 

I'll be sure to update you with things that were effective against my list, in case you come up against something similar.

[Abyssel]

Don't know if I'm beating a dead horse with this, and GC08, I have a lot of respect for you, and I'm not trying to start an arguement.

 

I'm just stating an observation. If you ever play me you will know I am VERY lax on rules, hell, I wont care if you messed up 2 turns ago and want to take it back or if you forgot to shoot something, I'll let you do it because you were not thinking and if you where then you would have made that shot anyways.

 

TROOPS: A class in the FoC

 

Unit Type: Walker, Vehicle, what ever

 

I do not see how they are connected in the sense. There can be many things that are Troops, but a different unit altogether. Chaos Spawn are beast's, thus can't take objectives (not that they'd run off of it anyways).

 

Granted it says may claim objectives as if they are troops. troops as in a FoC, this does not negate they are vehicles, mearly that they are vehicles within the troop FoC. so we would move them from elites to troops. Now if they had Troop, Unit Type: Infantry, than yeah, take it.

 

I'm unsure if I would allow this, being relaxed as I am about rules. Granted it says "May claim objectives as if troops" you cant just ignore one half of the sentence. It is merely saying it can take an objective as a Troop, but never specifies that it changed the unit type. "May claim objectives as if Infantry" would be better, but alas the mixup of words

 

This is neither here nor there, I'm just getting this off my chest after reading 3+ pages of babble about a dreadnought.

 

I run Death Guard, are my plague marines screwed vs GK? str 8 cannons and the force weapons means no FNP for me, and I run them in rhino's, so easy popping. DP's mean fun for GK's and I run x2 melta x2 plasma.

 

Am I screwed?

 

And can they nullify Warp Time if I target myself?

[DarkGuard]

The Death Guard question is interesting. You don't have FnP, but you don't suffer from psybolt as much as others do. Plus, as you've said you have a lot of plasma and melta, which can hit the Grey Knights hard. However, with Hammerhand, when they're in combat you'll be in trouble. Often striking before you, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, with no armour or FnP, ouch! Remember, you still get armour saves from their psyfleman Dreads, and armour and FnP from psycannons, unless it's a rending hit of course.

 

As for Warp Time nullifying, yes they can nullify it, with a Librarian's psychic hood like the rest of the Space Marine armies (except Space Wolves who use an axe). Their aegis ability, however, doesn't effect your casting of Warp Time as it doesn't effect their units directly, so if the GK player didn't bring a Libby he can't nullify Warp Time.

[Something Wycked]

DarkGuard is right on the money as usual. If you face Psyflemen, yeah, they will hurt (but you still get your armor, of course), but Stormbolters even with Psybolts shouldn't scare you too much (still get FnP), and even Psycannons aren't that scary to you unless they Rend.

 

Your plasma and melta are exactly the tools you need to fight Grey Knights. What you'll need to do is close the distance between 25" to 12" ASAP. Between 13" and 24" the Grey Knights will outshoot you. At 12" and less, you'll have the shooting advantage, and their models are more expensive than yours. In other words, don't assault him and automatically lose your FnP, out shoot him and out last him <_<

 

You will want to be careful with your DP's though. With Warptime making him a Psyker, Psykout grenades will make him Init 1 in assault and FW's will instagib him, but none of the specific anti-daemon rules will apply since he's just a MC, not a Daemon.

[Abyssel]

oh my god thats hilarious...my DAEMON prince is not a DAEMON.......

 

I'm running two obliterators and 2 vindicators w/ demonic possesion

 

basically 2 termies with las canons/plasma canons/multi meltas/ TL melta/TL plasma rifle/ TL flamer...

 

and possesion means i ignore stunned/shaken but bs3.

 

i may have a chance, i just need to know who will hurt my poor DP's. rhinos's will roll up the field and pop smoke. i tend to stay in my metal box untill my opponent gets me out. Blight grebades insure they dont get a bonus from attacking me and im already I 3, so there high I doesnt scare me.

 

i just fear them pwr weps.

[Something Wycked]

Yup, the Daemon Prince does not have the Daemon rule and is, therefore, not a Daemon ^_^ That's RAW for you.

 

Your DPs can be taken down by any group of GK's, even the lowly Strike Squad. They can either use Hammerhand so their swords will strike at Strength 5 and force a few invulns on you, or they can leave Hammerhand at home and use a Daemon Hammer to put a wound on your DP that they then activate as a force weapon to inflict Instant Death. Beware the squad led by an IC, because then they can have both; IC activates Hammerhand (which is granted to the squad) and the squad can activate their force weapons.

 

Outside of assault, massed Stormbolter w/Psybolt fire and Psycannons can certainly threaten your DPs.

 

The key will be to keep your DPs away from a hammer/IC and don't let them run around in the open where everything can shoot at them, and they should be fine.

[jeffersonian000]

All Daemon Princes are daemons, per GW. Specifically, they stated that any unit that is obviously a daemon is a daemon, and went on to state that they have no intention of FAQ'ing it since they consider it a non-issue as it's just plain common sense.

 

I happen to agree with them, but as we all know, common sense just isn't all that common.

 

SJ

[greatcrusade08]

Don't know if I'm beating a dead horse with this, and GC08, I have a lot of respect for you, and I'm not trying to start an arguement.

 

TROOPS: A class in the FoC

 

Unit Type: Walker, Vehicle, what ever

 

im presuming this is about allowing dreads to score.. i tend to bypass RAW and go for common sense first.. if they codex allows them to score but the BRB says no becuase they are still a vehcile i generally fall back on codex overrides rulebook.

more importantly specific overrides general.. so whilst in general walkers cannot score a specific rule which allows them to would override it.

 

but this is a tactics thread, not a rules thread :tu:

[DarkGuard]

Don't know if I'm beating a dead horse with this, and GC08, I have a lot of respect for you, and I'm not trying to start an arguement.

 

TROOPS: A class in the FoC

 

Unit Type: Walker, Vehicle, what ever

 

im presuming this is about allowing dreads to score.. i tend to bypass RAW and go for common sense first.. if they codex allows them to score but the BRB says no becuase they are still a vehcile i generally fall back on codex overrides rulebook.

more importantly specific overrides general.. so whilst in general walkers cannot score a specific rule which allows them to would override it.

 

but this is a tactics thread, not a rules thread ;)

 

Too right, we've already had discussions about the scoring Dreadnought, and we don't need to start on about the Daemon Prince issue, and both should be discussed with your opponent beforehand. For those interested in that issue, here's a link: What counts as a daemon?

 

Otherwise, lets try and keep this to killing Grey Knights. For the purposes of this thread, I think it's best to assume the worst, so Dreads can score and DPs count as Daemons etc. This means that we can adapt tactics for these circumstances, and if they don't apply we're pleasantly surprised and potentially have an easier game.