How do we fight the Grey Knights?

[thade]

That's a lot of plasma; must have been counting on you not having any Land Raiders, eh? ;)

 

Lists tailored to take on your own are the best kind of practice. You absolutely have to take advantage of terrain, movement (yours and his), and mistakes that he makes. Also it means if you make a mistake you suffer pretty gravely for it.

 

Plasma and Vindicators will mess up most shooty-marine lists, and - without wheels - that's what the Draigo-wing is. It's remarkably shooty; good for an assault but if your opponent is savvy, you'll have a hell of a time bringing his units into melee.

[Something Wycked]

Heh, yeah, the Draigowing he's going to face doesn't have a LR in it either so I didn't want to muddy the waters. I was completely cool with the 100% tailored list because I wanted him to see (and I wanted to see for myself!) just how dirty Draigowing can be; short of taking Vindicators, he had the best weaponry for the job, ignoring armor and FnP. And I still (barely) pulled out a victory, so my friend is (rightly) worried about facing the other player with anything less than a 100% tailored list.

[Aidoneus]

The core of my list is 2 Strike Squads as described and 2 units of Interceptors with identical gear :tu:

Nice! Good to hear I'm not alone on this. How's it been faring so far?

 

My friend brought Plasma Angels...

 

At one point I had 10 of 11 models in the Draigo squad having suffered 1 wound, Draigo included, before any of them died. If each Paladin wasn't his own wound allocation group, I could have lost 5 of the 10 Paladins at that point instead of still having them all on the table...

 

All of the plasma did well in putting wounds on the Paladins, especially in ignoring Feel no Pain on the large squad...

Now imagine what would have happened if, instead of plasma, he had taken melta. That's my big problem with Paladins; wound allocation does nothing against S8+ weapons. Those two wounds and 75pt apothecary mean literally nothing. That's why I can't bring myself to pay the points for 'em, simply because I just know a good round of melta/lascannon/exorcist/demolisher fire will eliminate half my army.

[Something Wycked]

The first time I used my 2x2 Strikes and Interceptors It was actually ran as 2x2 Purifiers and Interceptors against Necrons. I also had a PT DK with HI in the list and I was wrecking Necron face, but they just kept getting back up. The game ended as a tie, 2 kill points each, because he had killed a Rhino and a Vindicare, while I had killed a Lord and the unit he was with. I must have wiped out his Immortals three times over, but that Rez orb... -_-

 

I can see that the list will do well, so I'm sticking with it :) The GK disadvantage is short range, and Interceptors and PT DK's fix that nicely.

 

What you say about melta is true, but I was out of rapid fire range often- melta wouldn't have sent as many shots downrange due to being out of range (and inability to rapid fire.) But yes, one melta shot is basically worth two plasmas. It would have hurt a lot more if all his weapons that hit were meltas.

 

And you're right, Draigowing will not be my army. Paladins are excellent melta targets; the whole inspiration for my 2x2 list is that I'm bringing no vehicles at all, so there's no good target for anti-tank weapons. If I switched to Draigowing, that whole dynamic would shift and the points my opponent was paying to bring anti-tank wouldn't be wasted anymore.

[Aidoneus]

I must have wiped out his Immortals three times over, but that Rez orb... :D

Was there another unit of Immortals within 6", or a Tomb Spyder within 12" and another unit of Immortals somewhere on the board? Because if not, the res orb won't help him. (I play Necrons too, so I know the ins and outs of WBB ;) )

 

I can see that the list will do well, so I'm sticking with it ;) The GK disadvantage is short range, and Interceptors and PT DK's fix that nicely.

I agree. GKs are best at 19-30" range, with close combat being a backup or mop-up only. And I also agree about the Dreadknight. Mine just has an Incinerator (sometimes sword). He does things other GKs don't, like deny cover saves or save my butt from a Bloodthirster. Not the greatest unit every single game, but invaluable to have around, just in case.

 

... the whole inspiration for my 2x2 list is that I'm bringing no vehicles at all, so there's no good target for anti-tank weapons. If I switched to Draigowing, that whole dynamic would shift and the points my opponent was paying to bring anti-tank wouldn't be wasted anymore.

This is basically my strategy, except that I still have two Psyfilmen 'noughts. I hide 'em in cover, and they (and the dreadknight) soak heavy weapons fire that would otherwise be killing my men. I'll admit, I'd like to run all-infantry like you, but those dreads are just too nice to have around.

[Something Wycked]

Sorry, I was a little unclear. I didn't actually wipe out the unit three times, but I did enough unsaved wounds to it over the course of the game that it would have killed a similarly sized unit of Marines three times over.

 

Its true that a well-defended bait unit could draw and soak a lot of heavy weapons fire instead of letting those meltas nuke a couple of my Knights... I might have to consider working that into the list somehow.

[thade]

Draigo can take a plasma hit or two for the team as well, with that 3++ and pool of wounds to play with. Probably better to use him for hits that would otherwise be Instant Death though.

[nurglez]

Draigo can take a plasma hit or two for the team as well, with that 3++ and pool of wounds to play with. Probably better to use him for hits that would otherwise be Instant Death though.

 

This heh

 

He absorbs the high str low ap hits. Now the best way to kill a large squad with draigo attached is with a lot of high str low ap hits all at the same time. a sternguard squad with 10 combi melta's, a dread attacking the squad instead of draigo, a demolisher shell etc.

 

vs my usual opponents, there are usually only 2-3 high shots coming in at once, after rolling to hit and to wound, this is usually 1-2 high str shots, that then have a 66% chance to kill one of my paladins providing im not in cover or using shrouding or something, if I am then this high str shot has a 33% chance to kill a paladin.

 

Vs an all comers list, my paladin heavy army has proved a headache to counter (played vs chaos, nids, imperial guard, orks and blood angels).

[Toasterfree]

they are space marines. kill them the same way you kill space marines.

[greatcrusade08]

they are space marines. kill them the same way you kill space marines.

 

but thats not correct.. normal space marines dont have stor bolters and initiative 6 force weapons..

how you fight space marines and how you fight grey knights is completely different.. at least it is to me

[DarkGuard]

they are space marines. kill them the same way you kill space marines.

 

but thats not correct.. normal space marines dont have stor bolters and initiative 6 force weapons..

how you fight space marines and how you fight grey knights is completely different.. at least it is to me

 

True. Some of the same weapons and equipment that you'd use applies to Grey Knights, but the application is different. For example, I like using Honour Guard to knock out whole units of Space Marines in one turn, but yet I wouldn't use them against I6 halberds. Yet you, Toasterfree, have effectively said I should do so as that is how I handle Space Marines.

 

Same or similar statline, different equipment and abilities. If it was as easy as applying anti-Space Marine as anti-Grey Knight then this thread wouldn't be 11 pages long. Or maybe we're all missing something you haven't?

[thade]

they are space marines. kill them the same way you kill space marines.

 

Let's look at their differences, shall we?

• Space Marine engagement range is 24"...if they are stationary. GK engagement range is 24" even as they move.
  
• Most anti-infantry weapons in an SM army are Str 4 (e.g. boltguns, flamers); in a GK army, they are easily 5 thanks to Psybolt Ammo.
  
• Space Marines do not have deep striking monstrous creatures that can Sweeping Advance.
  
• Space Marines are Str 4 on the charge, Str 5 if they are BA on the charge. GK can be Str 5 or better in any given round of melee combat.
  
• All GK are equipped with force weapons; some of those weapons allow them to swing at I6. They don't have PFs, they have THs and they can bury those THs like SMs can PFs. They can also take more than one TH per unit, which most SM units cannot do.
  
• Psycannons are epic all-comers guns the likes of which SMs do not have. Str 7, 4 shots stationary (or in TDA), 2 shots on the move (4 in TDA), AP4, Rending. I kill LRs with Assault Cannons and my Assault Cannons are S6...
  
• Sanctuary and the fact that they're bristling with force weapons makes charging them a very very hairy prospect.
  
• Purgation Squads can fire through solid objects at you, blindly, at times giving you a worse cover save than you'd have if they could see you.
  
• Assassins.
  
• The Fortitude Psychic power is more effective than Extra Armor..and when it fails, they still have Extra Armor.
  
• Thanks to servo-skulls and teleport homers, GMs giving units scout or Troop classification, teleporter packs, and Storm Ravens, they have better deployment and mobility options than SMs. And they still have Rhinos, just so they can make fun of us.
  
• Their Razorbacks are awesome at S6 (psy-ammo) and have Fortitude, like everything else.
  
• Their Rifleman Dreadnoughts are S8 to our S7.
  

 

Space Marine effective engagement range is 24"; it's why - unless we're on the defensive - we're pushing to mid table so our weapons can hose everything. GK also want to be at mid-table. We're going to lose assaults if we're not very picky about them (even, at times, if we are very picky about them). It's not an easy fight; certainly not one to write off.

 

If I were to face GK with my SM I'd bring two Psychic Hoods to the fight. As for what else? That's what this discussion is for.

 

EDIT: I think I was day-dreaming about the metal assault cannon dread I'm going to assemble for my GK...thus my mistake, caught by DarkGuard, is fixed.

[DarkGuard]

Psychic hoods are fun against Grey Knights, especially as most of their psykers are Ld9 and sometimes Ld8 so you always have a 1 or 2 point advantage over them.

 

All in all, a good list thade, although you may want to amend the rifleman strengths, ours are S7 and there's are S8 with the ability to keep shooting unless you knock the weapons off or kill them outright.

[Toasterfree]

does a las cannon kill a SM? yes. does a las cannon GK? yes. kill them like you kill SM. AP. what else to take, pyshic hoods yes. but fight them like you would a SM army. AP them and pick your fights carefully.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

No, the Grey Knights are completely different from a space marine army. Would you fight Blood Angels the same way as you would fight codex marines?

 

Marines tend to have a lot of ranged firepower, while Grey Knights, excluding dreadnoughts, tend to have a 24 inch threat range. So that means that you aren't going to want to close with them, but rather sit back and pop transports. If they have psyflemen dreads, you shouldn't be too worried if you're staying away, since your transports aren't critical at that point. A psychic defense isn't necessary, but is still one the most useful tools you have, since much of their power is based off of psychic powers. If you can get a hood within range of their vehicles, you can get a good combo effect going since you'll have a chance at stopping Fortitude, and the can stun/shake them at will with ranged fire.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

they are space marines. kill them the same way you kill space marines.

 

but thats not correct.. normal space marines dont have stor bolters and initiative 6 force weapons..

how you fight space marines and how you fight grey knights is completely different.. at least it is to me

 

I agree that GK are not Marines. But....

 

with regards to i6 weapons, was anyone often assaulting other Marine armies [whatever flavour] and beating them up in mêlée anyway?

The competent Marine units are:

Captain with Relic blade

Honour guard

Bike command squad

Vanguard with power weapons in the mix

Clawnators

Hammernators

Khan leading one of these units

 

Clawnators see little game time anyway, due to now 3++

ICs get jipped universally by the force weapons *facepalm*

Which leaves Honour Guard, Bike Command squad, Vanguard and Hammernators. The i6 halberds are going to do a number on anyof these squads who don't have SS. The only place Honour guard get SS is through the Captain, who gets insta-killed.

Cross them from the list.

 

Captain with Relic blade

Honour guard

Bike command squad

Vanguard with power weapons in the mix

Clawnators

Hammernators

Khan leading one of these units

This leaves Bike Command, Vanguard and Hammernators. Just make sure you bring a good few SS to weather the storm, and hopefully you can get the charge off to reduce the number of Halberd attacks.

 

Does that really change out how you deal with GK compared to other Marines? Sure your [non combat] squads wouldn't have died as quickly, but would they ever have really gone through another Marine squad anyway?

Whilst that is a loss, it isn't a loss of a winning tactic.

 

The mobile shooting is what is the real issue imo, though I think all those force weapons jibbing Captains, etc. is a real facepalm thing.

 

GK can play like Tau, yet as soon as you get within RF range, they then volley and charge you, and better than you could assault them :P

 

What on earth are you supposed to do about that?!

Can't outshoot, can't outchop ;)

 

This leads to guys having to spam Plasma cannons to capitalise on their 'weak' 4++ saves. But what do you do about all their vehicles, or if you are building an all comers list?

 

+++

 

As a Templar player, I have dropped taking a second IC after the Champion. I play at 1500 pts.

I have also been disappointed with my Crusader squads in mêlée with other Marines since dropping the Marshal. It is the ICs that do an equal portion of MEq killing.

 

In order to give me some combat clout, I decided to bring Dreadnoughts with Assault cannons, heavy flamer and extra armour.

My one tournament game against GK unfortunately saw the Dreads get popped just the turn before they could have charged the GK units.

But I feel the Dreads would have been awkward to deal with.

 

I don't think GK squads are going to bring that many Daemon Hammers. a1 power fists are not that great, as a Templar I can tell you that even with a re-roll to hit, the a1 power fists are ho-hum. It also cuts down on the number of i6 stabbiness they can bring.

If you can lock up a squad of GK with a DCCW Dread, or deter them from assaulting your other men due to the proximity of the Dread, I think that is a win.

 

In my lists I am reluctant to take advantage of the AI killing power of my Marine squads. I have had too many get torrented by small arms fire themselves. So I keep them in their Rhinos and they shoot with their MM. Therefore I need the Dreads to provide AI shooting, to make up for my enforced lack of AI from the Marine squads.

 

Dreads work, as long as you are also running a lot of other AV. For some reason, people who cannot run Monsters are very conscious of them and try to blow them up quickly. By running Rhinos, etc. you overload the enemies ability to deal with the Dreads via saturation. Also the Rhinos can provide cover to the Dreads. It is generally better that the Rhinos get shot, compared to the Dreads.

 

My second 'bring me' unit is Devs. Missile Devs and also Plasma Devs. Kraks are solid at popping Rhinos and are better against those small GK squads than hoping Frags will actually hit them in the first place. Hitting on 3s, killing on 2s is a nice thing.

 

The Plasma Devs will hit even Terminator squads hard, though I feel their usage against other lists is less so. For instance, Deldar. The PC isn't as accurate to hit a Raider in the first place, and is barely killier than a bolter against the Kabal Warriors.

But I guess Incubi and Wracks become the prime targets for the PC....

 

If you are wanting to combat squad your Tacs, bringing Devs allows you to bring spare Rhinos for your combat squads to hop into.

 

+++

 

It is somewhat frustrating when you read Codices and you see that your strengths are perfectly countered by another's.

Back in the day, Orks got choppas, which ruined both MEq and TEq armour which you had paid good points for. Yet it had no effect against Guard and most Eldar units.

Eldar were also loaded up with s6 and low ap weapons, again the perfect MEq killers, yet not really doing much more against Orks or Guard.

Nowadays, GK seem to perfectly outplay Marines, on paper at least. Longer, stronger and more mobile guns, power weapons galore, and at i6 to boot.

*sigh*

 

When you see a Tactical and a Grey Hunter, and the Grey is actually cheaper than a Tac, you can only be mystified.

Likewise with a Blood Claw and a Grey. The Grey is greater than a Claw, yet they cost the same. What?!

 

I know GC08 and Captain Idaho, amongst others, have commented about being bored about playing against 'converging and identical lists' [ie, Missile Fang spam] and how it is dull to play against. It certainly may be boring to play against, but how are you supposed to compete against the next Dex without bringing your best stuff, when the next Dex is 'always' better than the one it proceeds?

 

I hope my foray into a steam powered game system doesn't suffer from this. We shall see.

[thade]

does a las cannon kill a SM? yes. does a las cannon GK? yes. kill them like you kill SM. AP. what else to take, pyshic hoods yes. but fight them like you would a SM army. AP them and pick your fights carefully.

Toaster, you are missing the point of this thread entirely. You are answering the literal question of "how do you kill grey knights" in the sense that they mostly have 3+ armor saves and are T4.

 

The question we are examining is how to fight them. Taking appropriate weapons is not enough. If we fail to ground their transports before they get to mid-table, they will have an easy time controlling the table as virtually all of their weapons are 24" as they move. Their psycannons and psyammo'd dreads will ground us at mid table, then it's assault time. The Marshal was good enough to spell out how that would go if you just charge in blindly.

[thade]

What on earth are you supposed to do about that?!

Can't outshoot, can't outchop :)

In addition to your points...we should outnumber them by a healthy margin, even as marine players, much of the time.

 

I don't have a whole lot of plasma guns, so I can't really stack those. I'll be pounding on them with boltguns until they go away. :P

[greatcrusade08]

with regards to i6 weapons, was anyone often assaulting other Marine armies [whatever flavour] and beating them up in mêlée anyway?

i do.. with my scout army.

10 assault scouts will usually beat ten tac marines in melee (inc pre assault shooting)..

i can even the odds against more difficult targets (assault marines etc) by adding shrike, he can kill an average 3 marines on the charge before the scouts get to hit, Khan used to work the same way for me, but he allowed the whole squad to strike before the enemy.

I6 force weapons nullify these bullying tactics to some extent.

 

there is a 'risky' way around that... becuase i usually outnumber the enemy i make sure all scouts reach base combat with the GKs leaving only single halberd wielding guy in contact with shrike.. against strike marines (the only GK unit i dare assault btw) its a single I6 attack against my HQ, chances are no wounds will be caused.. against termies or jumpy dudes im toast

 

ive found GK a strange army to face, you cant match them for bolter fire, becuase even though they have smaller numbers they fire twice as many shots at the 12-24" range, GK riflemen are usually spammed to the max and i find draigo in nearly every GK army i face..

you cant beat them in assault until they are very reduced in numbers.

 

the only real comparison to regular marines is the power armour, they die like regular marines, so generally shooty elements can kill them, but with thier extra cover saves relying on AP to win the day doesnt always work either.

 

the big problem is you cant rely on shooting against GK, they have alot of tricks up thier sleeve, like teleporters and vehicles with increased cover saves.. they get into assault and usually quciker than youd expect.. perhaps a leafblower list or maybe tau can knock them about before the charges.. but regular marines cannot be shooty enough in an all rounder list

[Marshal Wilhelm]

with regards to i6 weapons, was anyone often assaulting other Marine armies [whatever flavour] and beating them up in mêlée anyway?

i do.. with my scout army.

10 assault scouts will usually beat ten tac marines in melee (inc pre assault shooting)..

i can even the odds against more difficult targets (assault marines etc) by adding shrike, he can kill an average 3 marines on the charge before the scouts get to hit, Khan used to work the same way for me, but he allowed the whole squad to strike before the enemy.

I6 force weapons nullify these bullying tactics to some extent.

 

there is a 'risky' way around that... becuase i usually outnumber the enemy i make sure all scouts reach base combat with the GKs leaving only single halberd wielding guy in contact with shrike.. against strike marines (the only GK unit i dare assault btw) its a single I6 attack against my HQ, chances are no wounds will be caused.. against termies or jumpy dudes im toast

 

ive found GK a strange army to face, you cant match them for bolter fire, becuase even though they have smaller numbers they fire twice as many shots at the 12-24" range, GK riflemen are usually spammed to the max and i find draigo in nearly every GK army i face..

you cant beat them in assault until they are very reduced in numbers.

 

the only real comparison to regular marines is the power armour, they die like regular marines, so generally shooty elements can kill them, but with thier extra cover saves relying on AP to win the day doesnt always work either.

 

the big problem is you cant rely on shooting against GK, they have alot of tricks up thier sleeve, like teleporters and vehicles with increased cover saves.. they get into assault and usually quciker than youd expect.. perhaps a leafblower list or maybe tau can knock them about before the charges.. but regular marines cannot be shooty enough in an all rounder list

 

Good point on the Scouts.

Neophytes are just as killy in combat as Initiates with pistol+sword and re-rolls to hit, point for point. So Scouts would definitely beat Tacs.

 

Even if you build a gunline good enough to beat GK, and still works as an all-rounders list, you've had to resort to 'the mono-build' which is a display of a bad Dex:

Tau; Plasma+ Missile suits, Broadsides, Kroot

Sisters; Melta SoB in Rhinos, Immolators or Exorcists

Dark Angels; Deathwing

Chaos; Fateweaver & Crushers

 

C:SM shouldn't have to resort to this to have a chance against GK. Which makes me think Ward got a little carried away when writing the Dex. It womps Nids and Daemons something fierce, and forces Marines out of the midfield.

 

I haven't played against GK much at all, but on paper, it looks like they void what Marines used to be able to do. I hope experience doesn't support that conclusion....

 

On Tau; Tau aren't as shooty as Guard, but can shoot for longer than Guard due to mobility.

As such, they really suffer against quick armies, such as Deldar and BA with Jumpers, DoA and fast vehicles. Fortunately Deldar are made from papier mâché, but BA, not so much ;) . GK can also feign that BA speed with DSing and shunt

Considering GK can shoot just as much as the Tau, whilst both are moving towards the Tau table edge, I cannot see this going a good way for Tau. Having Marines rush Tau was an okay deal, as Marines shot at a reduced rate to make this happen. GK are just as shooty standing still as moving, and negate the fall back of the Tau....

 

Then there's the plasma syphon....

 

So perhaps add Tau to the Nids and Daemons scalps too.

[Aidoneus]

Speaking as someone who just faced Tau in a tourney with my GKs, it's not quite so simple. Sure, I didn't play as aggressively as I should, but he had the ability to really make me pay for that. While we might be excellent at killing Tau, the Tau are also excellent at killing us. Those S6+ guns, half of which are AP2, kill MEQs like no one's business, and the jet pack shenanigans put our mobility to shame. So unless the GK player has lots of units with personal teleporters, it's anyone's game.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Speaking as someone who just faced Tau in a tourney with my GKs, it's not quite so simple. Sure, I didn't play as aggressively as I should, but he had the ability to really make me pay for that. While we might be excellent at killing Tau, the Tau are also excellent at killing us. Those S6+ guns, half of which are AP2, kill MEQs like no one's business, and the jet pack shenanigans put our mobility to shame. So unless the GK player has lots of units with personal teleporters, it's anyone's game.

 

Good to hear :)

 

I do think GK do need to press the Tau, as otherwise you never exploit that weakness.

 

Not moving aggressively with GK, is imo, like playing against a Horde army, and not deploying on a wing. If you deploy centrally, you don't expose his weakness of not being able to bring everything to bear.

 

By not pressing Tau, you don't exploit that they only have X amount of distance to fall back into.

 

What do the Tau do if it is an Objectives game?

They must hold theirs [the closest the the Tau edge] and contest whatever the opponent is going for with Piranhas and/or Vehicles.

 

That gives you the anchor to drive for, even if the don't have that other anchor in the form of Broadsides without ASS.

The game then becomes very formulaic:

Tau anchor is here. Move towards that. Win.

 

You can add:

Shoot down Piranhas with Psyflespam, then move onto Suits, if you want to get really technical about it...

 

But since this one game where you didn't press, you're not going to do that again, and it becomes hopeful when the Tau player faces GK.

"If I get hot with my shooting rolls AND use all the refined Tau strategy [as evidenced for YTTH and 3++] then I might squeeze a draw out of this.... :D "

....

 

Sir Prometheus plays GK and Tau. He admits that GK does everything the Tau are renowned for, but are tougher and don't fold in combat.

Pretty damning, imo.

 

However, we shall see.

[GreatEscape_13]

Just faced my first grey knights army (been really rare around here). Lost, but a decently close loss on kill points. My $0.02:

 

My favorite squad of 4 hvy bolter devastators did as they always do: chewed the crap out of infantry. I think they caused the most losses on his side--particularly when he got a couple of inches unlucky and had a big squad face down the HBs plus all the rapid fire too.

 

I'm always of the volume of fire > AP weapons mindset. Found it made for an even exchange in shooting. Trouble was (as every post above has noted) when hand to hand forced my advance squads out of the center.

 

If facing them again, I would probably leave out my 10-man melta multimelta squad in drop pod. Or at least swap them into a rhino. Starting with shooting superiority and range seems like the ideal mode. When those guys came crashing in on turn one they were just shot down as his army passed them by. I think C:SM should treat it as a blast and survive the mop-up style fight (like playing mixed Imperial Guard... first turn shooting superiority, then hope you can do enough while closer range / cc attrition starts to kick in).

 

Cheers

[thade]

I think playing a DS/Drop Pod/DoA army against GK would be very difficult. You land close, you get one round of shooting off; they return fire, charge in, the unit's wiped. The one exception might be meta-melta'd DS units cutting down their Psi-rifle Dreads.

 

I would fight them with my army the same way I engage Orks: I would push up and then slowly pull back, baiting charges with weakened units so as to draw them closer (via consolidations) so I can focus-fire down a unit at a time.

 

I can definitely get on the "volume-of-shots > AP" band wagon; however I have personally put over four tactical squads worth of bolter-fire into a single unit of Wound Allocated Nobz and not killed a single Nob for my trouble. So...I'm worried about Draigo Wing.

[nurglez]

I can definitely get on the "volume-of-shots > AP" band wagon; however I have personally put over four tactical squads worth of bolter-fire into a single unit of Wound Allocated Nobz and not killed a single Nob for my trouble. So...I'm worried about Draigo Wing.

 

If you cant beat them join them eh Thade?

I'm still waiting on my friend to get his grey knight army together (and with how well I've been doing with my Draigo Wing, he's scared he wont do as well...), so the only experience I have is from using my draigo wing.

 

I still feel that psychic protection is a must vs grey knights, even if you have a sub par version of it, the amount of psychic abilities we have means that without any defence, you let them dictate what will happen and where.

 

Thats all the advice I can give at the moment :P