How do we fight the Grey Knights?

[DarkGuard]

Unlucky there Idaho. First time I face the Dreadknight I fluffed Null Zone and my plasma Command squad's rolls, put one wound on it and lost a guy to Gets Hot! He then charged into the Vindicator next to my squad and blew it up, letting my Command squad knock two more wounds on (with Null Zone on this time), before my Captain took the last wound with his relic blade. Was an epic moment, and the look on my opponent's face when I told him my Captain was S6 thanks to relic blade was priceless!

[Something Wycked]

Personally I reckon I would remove a unit of Interceptors with the Honour Guard, though if you have lots of Halberds I might lose the combat without a little softening up first. Hopefully my vidicator, Dreads and Typhoons can even the odds.

 

Certainly a fearsome list though, I reckon I could be in trouble against such a list. The Dreadknight is the biggest worry up close. I'd have to prioritise killing the Inteceptors first so next turn I can put some wounds on the Dreadknight.

 

I might even put stuff in reserve enmasse to remove your Alpha strike capabilities.

 

Or just lose the game.

 

Nope, I didn't put any Halberds on them. Too expensive on Interceptors, really, since they're a 26 point model base. Your Honor Guard would certainly put a huge dent in the Interceptors <_<

 

I wouldn't recommend reserving everything to prevent the alpha strike; that allows the army to cross the board at its leisure, without using the shunt move, so it can be used at an important point later in the game.

 

I seriously doubt you'd "just lose" the game, Idaho. You know your stuff, and killing Grey Knights is just like killing Marines.

 

I thought it was a fearsome list too, and it can certainly be effective, but I've been brainstorming about things because of this discussion... thank you, gentlemen :D

 

I'm taking another look at Grey Knight mobility- this time Deep Strike style. The list (you can take a look at it here) is fairly modular, too, with 250 point Strike Squads making up the bulk of the cost so they can be removed or added to range the list between 1500 and 2500. The idea is to have the Libby and Inquisitor in the Land Raider with the DCA, with everything else being in reserve. Alternately, the Interceptors can start on the table.

 

The main inspiration for the list is that a Rhino turns a squad into a 290 point unit instead of a 250 point unit, and Rhinos are the weakness that Strike Squads have- fragile mobility. If they all Deep Strike, that's a transport that can't get destroyed before they use it, and it doesn't cost me a dime.

 

This also sounds like a fantastic reason to start Grey Knights, gives you something of a challenge and forces you to play differently to other Marine lists. If I were to swap Marines it would be either for Blood Angels or Grey Knights, both do better in combat in regular Marines, while being able to make decent foot armies as well. Chances are that Grey Knights will be more interesting thanks to their style of play, which requires you to stay in that 19-24" sweet spot unless you choice not to do so.

 

Thanks again for engaging in this discussion Something Wycked, it's been informative to me and hopefully others as well.

Yes, after that proxy game I'm fairly well convinced that I want a Grey Knights army- and beyond that, I'm also leaning towards making them my primary force instead of my Marines. I really like the feel of how they play- Strike Squads and Interceptors are how I think Tactical Marines and Assault Marines should play. I love the heavy firepower of Marine armies, but I despise Tacticals and Assaults... They just don't work for me. (I have a lot of bolter-toting Marines just to fill out my Devastator Squads and fill in as Sternguard without combiweapons lol) Grey Knights are a force that I can use only the basic building blocks of the army and do well with them, and I can't say the same about Marines of any stripe. (Not trying to imply nobody can- that is of course untrue :D )

[greatcrusade08]

DKs just arent that scary tbh, i faced two last night and killed both in combat, i softened both up first with shooting of course but 4 wounds isnt too bad.

 

of course if they make thier inv saves theres not much you can do, personally i favour my buckets of dice approach, i dont care if they have invs a one is a one :tu:

[Captain Idaho]

I'm digging a mobile GK army, much more difficult to counter than a MSU army of Razorbacks and small units. Think the benefits of Interceptors are under rated, with the synergy they bring to an army including other mobile elements. It's a tenent of 40K people forget in the rush to get as much guns and/or cheese in the army as possible.

 

I take my hat off to you Something Wycked, since your list looks particularly well balanced but also keenly competetive. I would like to point out I didn't see a single GK list like yours in the ToS this year and feel I could have taken all the others fairly well (dependent on opponent ability of course) but yours actually worries me!

[greatcrusade08]

yeah i agree, from my own efforts to counter GK im finding the mobility of the teleporters to be a big deal.. im not sure why people take psycannons on them though, stick with incinerators, those things rock

[DarkGuard]

I think the psycannons are more for the fact that with psybolt ammo, you can stay at 24" range easily using your teleporters, letting the unit harass enemy units and weaken them before charging. Remember, they're still like Strike squads in combat, with only one attack each and very expensive combat upgrades. The basically become a Fast Attack Strike squad that can move faster without the need for tanks. That being said, incinerators could still be a good choice, letting them play a more combat role. Either way, due to their inherent mobility and shunt, I am worried about Interceptors! Fortunately no one seems to like them at my local store.

[greatcrusade08]

a 30" shunt move with no scatter combined with incineraotrs is an evil combo, im surprised i dont see it more tbh

[Something Wycked]

Thanks Idaho, means a lot from you :D I do play to win, every time, even though I've never been to any form of tourney (not even LGS ones) and with my friends its all about the fluff of the game, why the forces are fighting. I've been starting to think about getting into the tourney scene and that is really encouraging.

 

But that means I'll have to become a painter as well as a modeler and tactician, and I'm not sure I can handle that -_-

 

I agree GC08. I think Psycannons are wasted on Interceptors. You want them to be mobile (because they're your best mobile force), and mobile Psycannons only ever get half the firepower of stationary ones. Sure, you can use them to very quickly get into an advanced firebase and then sit there and lay down fire, which will likely work for some people, but I intend my mobile infantry to be mobile, and Psycannons don't fit with that use.

 

Incinerators on the other hand are point costed appropriately for their effectiveness on Interceptors. If a squad is at all bunched up, a dual-Incinerator Interceptor squad will hit almost every model twice, just with the Incinerators, and those wound MEQ on 2+. Add in up to 16 Storm Bolter shots which may be strength 5, and that's a whole lot of death on one squad. There might not be much left to assault. There's a new reason for bubblewrap!

 

EDIT: I've been thinking some more, and I need to revise my previous statements here. Psycannons are most definitely not wasted on Interceptors. Grey Knights don't get melta. The only option for a GK squad to open transports, outside of NFHammers, is Psycannons. Psycannons, Psycannons, Psycannons. They're really not wasted on Interceptors, you just won't get to use the Heavy mode of firing very much.

[greatcrusade08]

thats not so say that incinerators and S5 storm bolters cant hurt rear armour if needed B)

[Something Wycked]

True, but Incinerators will only get you 1 hit on that rear armor, while the Psycannons will give you 2 each, at +1 strength, and rending. A whole different class of effectiveness :tu:

[greatcrusade08]

True, but Incinerators will only get you 1 hit on that rear armor, while the Psycannons will give you 2 each, at +1 strength, and rending. A whole different class of effectiveness ^_^

 

true your 100% correct.. but then im an 'all rounder' kind of person.. i wouldnt aim to use a big unit to shoot down a 100 point pred, id want to demolish an assault/tactical squad or something..

i suppose a small 5 man unit is good for that, aim for vindies and preds, most mech can be shot at front armour with psycannons.

 

personally id give the psycannons to strike squads in cover and have the interceptors munch infantry

[DarkGuard]

Perhaps consider taking a full strength unit with an incinerator and a psycannon. Combat squad, and the psycannon and psybolt ammo can take out transports and side armour of battle tanks, while the incinerator unit go after infantry. If points are spare consider halberds or falchions to make up for having a small amount of attacks. That could be a difficult combination to deal with. What do you take out? The heavy gun ripping your armour apart? Or the small squad with super flamer going through your infantry. All about making decisions, and I wouldn't want to make that decision (although I think if most my guys were still in tanks I'd take out the psycannon first :lol:).

[Aidoneus]

I think it just depends what you want the interceptors to be doing.

 

For the incinerators to work, you need to be mere inches from enemy infantry, which virtually guarantees that you'll be in combat the next turn. That's fine if you're playing a very aggressive, in-your-face style of GKs. The aim is to do as much damage as possible as quickly as possible, to minimize your enemy's ability to hit you back. The incinerator only works aggressively, and only against infantry.

 

The Psycannons let you shoot at range, and at virtually any target. They don't have the overwhelming impact of two well-placed S5 templates, but they're effective against anything you want to hit. The range gives you the flexibility to hang back, skirt the edges, or target something that isn't on the enemy's front line. This lets you be much more cautious with your interceptors, and fits much better in a more flexible Water Warrior style army. Because you are not forced to target one type of unit, or to put yourself in harm's way, you have many more possibilities open to you. It's also worth noting that you won't need to Shunt! to get into position, so you can save that for later use either to objective-grab or run away to safety in a KP game.

 

Myself, I am very much in the Water camp, so I obviously prefer the psycannons on interceptors. But I can certainly see the appeal of the incinerators in certain styles of list. To each, his own, I suppose.

[Abaddonshand]

@aidoneous: incinerators are strength 6, not 5 in the new book. Much better than heavy flamers. As well as the clear benefits against infantry, instant killing toughness 3, wounding MEQs on 2+, they also can threaten up to AV 12 with glances, and penetrate AV 10 on 5+, which is not to shabby. If your enemy sets up a mech parking lot, such as some IG players are want to do with chimeras, you could probably hit a few of them with one template if you shunt to the side of the line.

[Aidoneus]

Fair enough. Like I said, incinerators certainly have their uses. But I think my point still stands. You still need to get much closer to use the incinerators, meaning a much more aggressive style of play. And the psycannons can still be effective at much greater range, and against a greater variety of targets, allowing a much more cautious, flexible playstyle.

[Something Wycked]

If your enemy sets up a mech parking lot, such as some IG players are want to do with chimeras, you could probably hit a few of them with one template if you shunt to the side of the line.

This really comes into play against a Librarian with Warp Rift. Same deal with hitting multiple vehicles with a flame template, except this flame template auto-penetrates all of them. This will definitely cramp the style of IG parking lots and Marine firing lines, if you place your units too close together.

 

If the GK player attaches his Librarian to Mordrak (like I will), that unit arrives from deep strike on turn 1 and doesn't scatter, allowing you to set up some pretty heinous Warp Rift combo shots.

[DarkGuard]

If your enemy sets up a mech parking lot, such as some IG players are want to do with chimeras, you could probably hit a few of them with one template if you shunt to the side of the line.

This really comes into play against a Librarian with Warp Rift. Same deal with hitting multiple vehicles with a flame template, except this flame template auto-penetrates all of them. This will definitely cramp the style of IG parking lots and Marine firing lines, if you place your units too close together.

 

If the GK player attaches his Librarian to Mordrak (like I will), that unit arrives from deep strike on turn 1 and doesn't scatter, allowing you to set up some pretty heinous Warp Rift combo shots.

 

Tactical way to prevent this, if you know your opponent has Mordrak and a Libby, you can bet it has Warp Rift, and therefore spread your vehicles out :lol:.

[Something Wycked]

Absolutely. The only "if" to that is the vehicles need to be about 5" apart to be sure they won't both get hit, and if you have that much space between all of your vehicles, that's a fairly spread out army. You'll really need to be sure your units are close enough to support each other well if the GK player hammers everything into one flank, even while having the necessary spacing.

[DarkGuard]

Very true, with good positioning it's going to be hard. Plan two, of course, is bring a psychic hood, but as I don't have the points that won't help me ;).

[Something Wycked]

And, lo! We have come full circle in this discussion about dealing with Grey Knights :D

[DarkGuard]

Oh dear, did I just say the 'L' word again? How silly of me, please accept my apology :D.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Something Wycked: I noticed the OZ GW response to some of the FAQs was that Shunt consisted of a special one off move, therefore couldn't be used by Scout. If this comes to pass, would it change the way you build your highly mobile list?

[Something Wycked]

Not at all, but sort of. My list has changed some (pulled down from 2,000 points to 1750.) I'm not striving for first turn assaults anymore, but heavy amounts of firing on the first turn.

 

Assuming pitched battle, 12" scout move, 12" first turn move plus 6" for my deployment zone (30" of the board's 48") is well across the table and easily in firing range for supporting Mordrak and the Libby.

 

This has the added bonus of saving the shunt move for later on in the game where it might be needed more :D

 

As things stand, I'll still have 22 stormbolters, 4 psycannons, and a Warp Rift striking at the enemy positions on turn 1, and turn 2 will have 30 stormbolters, 6 psycannons, and a Warp Rift... minus any casualties I will have suffered lol

 

Here's my updated list.

[DarkGuard]

Impressive. Little no mech so my Rifleman's are sitting around not doing much. I'd prefer it if you were footslogging the Strike squads, but I imagine you'd deep strike them? Even if you footslog them, Interceptors would be the bigger priority, as would the Ghost Knights, letting them take their positions. Plenty of psycannons to deal with mech, although I wonder if you could take down a list with over 10 vehicles easily with only 6 psycannons and Warp Rift. Mine for example runs with 11 vehicles. I suppose though with those lists the vehicles would be grouped together more, and so Warp Rift allows you to take out a few, or force them to spread out.

 

Would be interesting to fight, and certainly more fun than the Grey Knight army that I've fought down my LGS!

[Something Wycked]

Yep, no mech at all, so Riflemen and Melta are fairly wasted points against me. I am footslogging the Strike Squads- the one that is arriving on turn 2 is doing so courtesy of The Summoning and a nearby skull. The other will be reserved to Deep Strike on my objective or deployed nearby but hidden.

 

Most of the vehicles would have to be dealt with by Storm Bolter fire; only thing they won't be able to touch is AV12+ (every model except the Ghost squad have Psybolts), and I imagine most of your vehicles are AV11/10. I've been kicking around the idea of combat-squadding the Interceptors to put the Hammer in one half and the two Psycannons in the other, so I'm not wasting a bunch of Stormbolter fire on vehicles they can't hurt. That way, the Psycannons (hopefully) crack open the vehicle, and then the Hammer squads can shoot & assault the squad inside (or just follow up with a Hammer assault if the Psycannons don't do the job).

 

I've been thinking up tactics that will force some opponents to come to me... hard to do with Grey Knights but I think I can make it happen ;)