How do we fight the Grey Knights?

[Abyssel]

Well I got to fight some GK..

 

Despite being in cover psyfledreads shot him to crap and back and the only long ranged anti tank I had was oblits, who died pretty quick because of horrid armor saves.

 

The hammer I'm not worried about, DP's have eternal warrior.

 

He popped my rhino's and then served out the shooting and hurt my PM's.

 

9 KP's to 7KP's though, so I didn't loose THAT badly.

 

My DP's essentially took themselves out though. one perilsed 3 times in a row..... the other took off his last wound. Mmmm suicide.

[DarkGuard]

Sounds like you ran up against a solid GK list and some bad luck. Still, to only lose by two KPs isn't bad, and by the sounds of it, if luck were on your side you would have performed better.

[Something Wycked]

Yeah, like DarkGuard said, if your Oblits could manage to stop rolling 1's I'd imagine they'd have stopped the Dreads from popping your Rhinos too quickly, and if your DP's didn't suicide and instead put the hurt on the GK's... That might have been a very, very different game.

 

Good to know about the EW on the DP, I'll stick with Hammerhand against them instead of trying and failing to ID them with force weapons XD

[yodaid764]

So after reading through all 9 pages, even the off topic rants/argument, I still dont think the question was ever really answered.

I played against a friend's GK list the last 2 weekends. Last weekend was a trial before this weekend's tournament. So last week was my first time playing against GK. I lost, but it was a lesson learned and it gave me some perspective. I always assume I will lose to a new dex since I will be unfamiliar with all the new tricks etc. That and I was going for a balanced list since I knew there would be a variety of armies in the Tournament. I went 1-3 yesterday, some was bad luck on my part, the match vs chaos marines came down to secondary objectives so it was a close battle but I played last against my friend with his (now slightly modified) GK list. Let me pause for a second here to state I have never claimed a codex is broken, cheesy or over powered. Some are a challenge until you learn how they function and how to counter them. Until now.....The GK codex, IMO, IS broken and pisses me off to new levels. I nearly got tabled in that last match against them while hardly killing any of his army.

My main issues are these (some of which have been stated previously by others):

-75% of his army was Terminators (2+/4++ IIRC)...with halberds (I6)....and special ammo (S5) and can use a psychic power to make them S5 in CC.

-One of his HQ Deep Strikes without scatter on turn 1...into cover....and has a 2 or 3+ cover save. (This unit came in behind and in the middle of my army and as we were playing table quarters I was, unfortunately, bunched up.)

-Vindicare "I make your AV 14 LR look like it is made of paper" Turbo Penetrator

-Whatever his HQ was allowed him to roll and give up to 3 units a special ability of his choice. At least in the C:SM you only get whatever the special character has listed. No choosing. (Another issue is here that going into a tournament where you are supposed to have a fixed list that a GK player has the option to change what that ability is every game to gain an advantage, I feel, is wrong. A psyker in any other army doesnt get that option.)

-His basic MEQ has storm bolters with S5 ammo and all his squads, Terms and regular GK have psycannons.

-Oh, EVERYBODY has a damn force weapon so armor is useless in CC, and can instant kill any of your infantry.

-Every unit has a psychic power.

Seriously, how many special rules can one army have????? His MEQ did very little but slowly make thei way across the board, soak up a few shots from some of my units that had NO better target for a variety of reasons (LOS or just being the only unit NOT in CC.) In the end they just helped grab table quarters and sealed the victory, but did little of any real work. It is more the GKTs showing up in your face, shooting the holy hell out of my army, then closing in to CC and wiping me. There is no counter to this, AFAIK. I play a Crimson Fists balanced army. Mostly gunline with only one or two (depending on points) CC units. Lots of Sternguard, Pedro, a Librarian, Scouts with the "Telion" upgrade and a variety of other stuff.

As was discussed previously here, it is best to keep them at long range and out shoot them. But with this list that option is taken away from you. The GKT list is just overpowered, IMO. I am so pissed at this that I absolutely refuse to play against his list anymore. It wont be fun for me to do so since I will get my ass destroyed by the end of turn 3.

So, honestly, if we are trying to make a balanced list for a tournament, but come across this, how the hell are we supposed to handle it???? The S5 storm bolter + psycannon made short work of my razorbacks and infantry. The damn vindicare laughs at the AV 13 Vindicator and AV 14 Land Raider. I had Pedro and his 10 SG with Lib unleash hell from special ammo and watched the GKT laugh as they then returned fire and charged into HTH and wiped the whole unit in 2 turns of CC. I have no idea what the regular GK MEQ can do, since I never get to see them up close as the GKT are rolling my whole army up.

 

My list was:

Pedro Kantor

Librarian

Ven Dread with TL Auto Cannon and ML (never used a ven before so tried something new)

Sternguard (10)- SGT with PF, Heavy Flamer, combi melta x2, combi flamer x1, combi plasma x1 (need to build more combi but this is what I have)

Land Raider Crusader with MM and Ex Armor

Sternguard (5) LC x2 (cheaper than Devs and scoring)

Razorback with TLAC and Ex Armor (just rolled around and shot at things, never carried anyone)

Scouts (6)- SGT Ramirez (counts as Telion), snipers and ML

Tac Squad (10)- Flamer and PC + MB

Razorback with TLPG and LC, Ex Armor

Vindicator with SGT Cardenas (Counts as Chronus)

Landspeeder with MM and Typhoon Launcher

1998 pts.

 

So....what to do? They outshoot us in our primary engagement zone (24" or less). They murder is in HTH with S5, I6 and all power weapons. The defeat any of our armor with even their basic troops hitting at S5 with psybolts and glancing razorbacks/rhinos. Bottom line...they do everything C:SM can do only they do it better. Sure, they are more expensive. But from what I have seen, the cost is worth it.

[jeffersonian000]

They cost more per unit, so he had less units than you did, with less wounds, less attacks, and little in the way of options to personalize his forces. GK have always been an elite army with few yet powerful units. Did you use your Psychic Hood to attempt to stop his powers from being used? Did you focus fire on one unit at a time while bogging his CC'ers in tar pits? Did you shoot every krak missile in your army at the Vindicar on your 1st turn to remove him from play? Sternguard can shoot 30", and most of your heavy weapons can shoot 36".

 

Sounds like you just got out played, as your opponent didn't seem to do anything a good BA or Nid player couldn't already do.

 

However, in my 2000pt GK list, I would have done the same thing in that scenario, as I too run a Ghostwing with Mordrak+Ghosts+Librarian DS'ing on first turn, followed by just about everything else on turn 2 which, includes 20 more GKT, 10 GKSS, and 10 GKIS, all with psycannons and daemonhammers. And like anyone playing the same list, I might have gotten rolled if my opponent was aware of my list's shortcomings and exploited them.

 

Why would I play a list like this? Because that's what the codex lets me use if I don't do an "Eat Crowe" list, or a Draigowing, or a Hench-List. Pure GK players have always needed to make less mistakes that their opponents to just tie, let alone win.

 

SJ

[yodaid764]

I was only able to Hood 2 of his powers before the Librarian was killed. I was not able to focus fire per se, either because of terrain (to include the smoking wreck of my vehicles) or being locked in HTH. I did try to focus fire on his HQ with Stealth Terms hiding in cover as it was the closest threat and the only one I could mass fire on. I think I managed to kill all of one of them before they wiped the 10 man SG with Pedro and the Lib. (Not that the Lib was any help since he got knocked to I1 by psy grenade and subsequently ID due to Force Weapon.)

I have played BA and won. Yes they are fast and good at HTH, but they dont ALL have power weapons and Term armor.

 

I appreciate your reply, but nothing here answers the title of the thread on how to beat them. What is your advice?

[spartan249]

I share your frustrations, as I'm having lots of problems myself fighting against GKs with C:SM. At this point, I'm starting to think that you just need to pray that you don't run into GKs if you're playing C:SM and hope the IG player or Tau player get their hands on them instead.

 

The only thing I can really think of is long range plinking, as army wide range is the one advantage C:SM holds.

[maturin]

Yodaid964,

 

There's no doubt that the GK codex will change the metagame, and that armies will shift to deal with the popularity of the GK's. In my own view, C:SM armies need to incorporate a couple of things and avoid others to deal with GK's.

 

1) Include a counter-charge unit with power weapons (and storm shields if possible). As has been pointed out in previous posts, GK's have force weapons but actually aren't stellar at CC. They're very good, but not stellar. And their best invul save is 5+. Take advantage of that and hurt them. Yes, they have I6, but that's what the storm shields are for. Vanguard vets on foot are my answer, but TH/SS termies or Command Squads are options too.

 

2) Plasma, plasma, plasma. I noticed you only have 1 combiplasma in your Sternguard. Since they're cheap, take as many as possible. You said there's no counter to DS-ing termies. I beg to differ - they can't charge on the turn they DS. So in your turn, blast them with plasma cannons and plasmaguns. And then charge them. You'll need to deploy smartly, but you will know when your opponent is reserving the termies for DS so take that into account.

 

3) I believe razorback spam and AV11 in general will become less popular as S5 storm bolters give GK's the ability to stun razorbacks fairly reliably. I'm guessing that's what happened to your TLPG/LC razorback, which otherwise would have been helpful against the GKTs?

 

4) Libby is helpful for the psychic hood, but not required. As you noticed the GK have a lot of wargear dedicated to anti-psyker so you have to deploy him carefully.

 

5) As to the Vindicare - I'm not sure (other than don't take land raiders), as I haven't faced one yet. Getting him into CC is the best idea, of course. Maybe....Lucius pattern drop pod dread and stomp him? :jaw:

 

6) Mobility. We have more mobile units in our codex than they do, and theirs are very expensive. It sounds like your opponent was running an infantry list, so aside from deep striking his mobility is minimal. Draw him out on the table and then use a refused flank to overwhelm part of his army. With only 24" range on his guns he won't be able to mutually support his own units well. I've beaten foot GK that outnumbered my own all-comers (if slightly unusual scout/vet) list using the above tactics.

 

ps If I might offer comments on your list - it has a fair amount of......inefficiency? Chronus, razorbacks, and ven dreads are expensive. So is the LRC - and the sternguard need to disembark to shoot. You don't want them in CC... I'd say replace the above things for more units and firepower/CC output. Good luck and don't lose hope!

[yodaid764]

Maturin,

I see what you are saying. I dont normally run some of these units. I have never fielded a Ven Dread before so was trying it out. Also, I have not used a LR in many years either. Normally I run a regular drop pod dread and an Honor Squad with razor back to go forth and wreck havoc in my enemy's back field.

[DarkGuard]

So after reading through all 9 pages, even the off topic rants/argument, I still dont think the question was ever really answered.

 

I think you're missing the point of this thread. Yes it's titled "How do we fight the Grey Knights?" (I should know, I titled it), and yes I ask how we should combat them, but the idea of this thread was never to get a definitive answer on how to beat Grey Knights. Why? Because is no definitive answer. The Grey Knights Codex has many different builds, and many more different players, you just can't have one solution to beat all of that. No, this thread's purpose was to evaluate and discuss ways in which the Grey Knights may be used, how they may change the metagame, and what would be the best way to combat them. And I feel here is has suceeded. Yes the scoring Dreadnought was off topic, but everything else was useful, I know I in particular appreciated Something Wycked sharing his Grey Knight army with us so we could look and see how we could beat it.

 

 

As was discussed previously here, it is best to keep them at long range and out shoot them. But with this list that option is taken away from you. The GKT list is just overpowered, IMO. I am so pissed at this that I absolutely refuse to play against his list anymore. It wont be fun for me to do so since I will get my ass destroyed by the end of turn 3.

 

If you take that attitude than you will get destroyed by the end of turn 3. Every time. There was a Dark Eldar player around my store, played Raider spam when the old 'dex was out. Very nasty list. 6 Warrior units in Raiders, 1 Incubi unit with Archon in Raider, and 2 Ravagers with a dark lance and old disintegrators. All Raiders had lances, all Warrior squads had blasters. Virtually unbeatable, to beat him was a massive achievement, and to draw was also impressive. He had a good list, but was even better with tactics. And he beat me a lot of times. So many in fact. I don't think I beat his last edition Dark Eldar army. But did I refuse to play him? Did I refuse to play DE in general? No, I stood my ground and fought him, every step of the way. I knew I'd lose, but it's because of that I really enjoyed the game. I could go in with no pressure, and enjoy the game unfolding. And then my loses started turning into draws, into hard fought games with mutual destruction assured. And then, with him using the new Dark Eldar, I played him in the stores' winter tournament final, and scraped a win. One of the most hard fought and enjoyable games I've played in a long while, and massive fluke with some good luck, if I played him again I'd lose.

 

But what I'm saying is that the armies we struggle against become the armies that define us, and shape us as a player. I recently played the Tau player that destroyed my army in two turns. After five highly enjoyable turns I was the clear winner, but again I went in determined to match him and make up for the loss. Instead of whining and whinging about another army (and I'm sorry, that's how your post comes across), take a look at yours, take a look at how you play it, and work from there. I can assure you that the Grey Knight Codex is far from broken. GKTs are cool as troops, but are expensive, and even more expensive to mechanise, which we must remember is king of 5th Ed. GKSS and the like are Marines, and die like Marines. GKs are short ranged, and if they want to be long ranged they have little options of what units to take. Mordrak is alone and isolated when he teleports down first turn. Their psychic powers are tested for on Ld8/9 most of the time, and the majority of them only help in assault. And even in assault, they're not amazing, one attack power weapons will only do so much. S5 storm bolters get expensive (consider 5 units with S5 storm bolters will take up 100pts extra!) and the Vindicare Assassin is one man with a mediochre range and only 7 shots each game. And I'd love to be able to supply a quick and easy answer, but I cannot, because there is none. You've just got to prioritise your targets right, and make sure you're making the most of your list. There is no "press button to win". That's not what this thread is about.

 

Losing tells us more about ourselves than victory does. Next time you crash out against Grey Knights take the time to congratulate your opponent, and ask them where they think you went wrong. Ask them what they would have done differently, what units in their army they consider to be priority targets. Take this into consideration modify your list or playing style a little if needed, and then go into the next fight optimistic, either of victory, or of at least having a good time. Because in the end this is a game, and if you have a good time, you've won the game, regardless of the actual result.

[thade]

Losing tells us more about ourselves than victory does. Next time you crash out against Grey Knights take the time to congratulate your opponent, and ask them where they think you went wrong. Ask them what they would have done differently, what units in their army they consider to be priority targets. Take this into consideration modify your list or playing style a little if needed, and then go into the next fight optimistic, either of victory, or of at least having a good time. Because in the end this is a game, and if you have a good time, you've won the game, regardless of the actual result.

This is, hands down, the best advice I've seen on this forum. It applies not only to GK, but to everything in this game.

 

I do this. I recommend you do too. You know when you get beat if it's because your dice were crap or because you got out-played. Don't fall into that trap where you blame your dice or your codex (or your opponent's dice or codex); if you got beat, even if it was your dice, ask questions. Assume responsibility. It will make you a better player.

 

"What about my army made the game easy for you?" Asking this question during my first few tournaments taught me a great deal about battlefield positioning; i.e. I learned that my lists were fine but I was playing into bait-and-switch traps and not effectively moving my force in a way that units could support one another and deal with his units.

 

There is honestly nothing I hate more than tabling an opponent; I by *far* prefer being tabled myself. If I get tabled, well, obviously I played very wrong and - likely - my list needs revising or I need to rethink how I employ it. Either way, I learn something new. If it's an even match, it's a great time. If I table them...well, it depends on how they take it. I learn little new: unless they made a new mistake I'd never seen before that I exploited, or I found that some list of mine was more effective than I thought it'd be against their list, I learn almost nothing. And they feel like crap, often, which makes me feel like crap.

 

I was giddy when I read this. Thanks, DarkGuard.

[yodaid764]

Yeah, if you have a good time, it matters not if you won or lost. I know that. I enjoyed the 2 other defeats I had in the Tournament because the games were an enjoyable slugfest. Getting beat and being able to do nothing about it is NOT fun.

I fully understand that we learn more by losing than by winning. I have learned that during my time in the military doing OPORDs. And before that 40k.

And the DS GKT HQ dude showed up with a bodyguard of other GKTs. So if he was doing it wrong then that would only be part of the problem.

I guess some of my problems lie in the fact that 1) I try to play a fluffy Crimson Fist army. and 2) my list was designed to be an all around list it isnt tailored to focus on just one list type. Sure, I could design it to have nothing but plasma and melta with 3 vindicators. I am certain that would help dramatically against GK. And I am certain that would mean getting beat by other list types as a result.

I guess the learning point I am going to take away from this is to stop trying to play a fluffy list. Sure it is thematice and can be fun but my fluffly lists do ok in most situations but obviously are not "competitive". That has actually been a problem of mine in a variety of games in all my years. Take a concept, try to play it within the framework of the game system and watch it flounder because it is not efficient.

So back to the army list. Screw trying to fit the 40k fluff for CF being short on Tac squads and regular battle brothers but having a glut of Veterans and scouts. From here out I'm building my lists to give me the best advantage possible so that I can enjoy playing, win or lose.

[DarkGuard]

Thanks thade, that means a lot coming from you :D.

 

Unfortunately, being human there have been times when I have not heeded my own advice, and these occasional lapses into what could only be described as "sore losing" is something I am desperately attempting to stamp out of my game. It happens occasionally, but it's something I'd much rather not happen at all. The rest of the time I do practise what I preach, and attempt to get the guys at my local GW to do the same. I could count the amount of times I've seen someone at my local GW follow that advice on the fingers of one hand. It happens very rarely, with most of the time the victor coming away very pleased and the loser often comes away disheartened. Some people seem to take it too seriously. We've got gamers who collect a new army the minute theirs loses, som eare obsessed with tabling people, and while it's certainly a measure of how nasty the list is, it can hardly be fun for the opposition. So this is the culture I'm attempting to fight against, and that's why the quote below makes me die a little inside.

 

I guess the learning point I am going to take away from this is to stop trying to play a fluffy list. Sure it is thematice and can be fun but my fluffly lists do ok in most situations but obviously are not "competitive". That has actually been a problem of mine in a variety of games in all my years. Take a concept, try to play it within the framework of the game system and watch it flounder because it is not efficient.

So back to the army list. Screw trying to fit the 40k fluff for CF being short on Tac squads and regular battle brothers but having a glut of Veterans and scouts. From here out I'm building my lists to give me the best advantage possible so that I can enjoy playing, win or lose.

 

Why? That's all I can say. I'm not attempting to be crass or horrible, but does winning mean that much to you that you'd chuck away your attempts at fluff? One of the gamers down my local store, an exception to the rule, loses a lot. But he's a brilliant guy with a fluffy Chaos list. He enjoys playing the game for the fun of it, not for winning it. It sounds to me that despite this one game you really enjoyed yourself at the tournament, and I can think of no better way of enjoying the hobby than playing with a fluffy list, win or lose. I'd highly suggest, even plead that you take a few days to take a break, just to stop and reflect, before you change anything about your list. Taking the fluff and playing it out on the tabletop is what makes this game fantastic, and thinking of ways to make it work it also fun. Just take the time to think about it before acting. One army shouldn't change the entire way you approach or play the game.

 

Looking at your list, it looks solid. Just swap the Dread with a Rifleman, swap out the Tactical Razorback for a Rhino one, give the backfield Sternguard Razorback the las/plas turret instead of the assault cannon, and then use any left over points for a bit more melta in places, maybe a MM/HF Speeder. If you want to change your list, I'd suggest doing that first, I think it could work well.

 

Hope you keep the faith in the fluff :P.

[Something Wycked]

Its already been said, but my own 2 cents: I acquired my tactical knowledge through getting my butt handed to me in uncounted games of chess, so I look at losses as learning opportunities, just like your OPORDs. You're right though, getting stopmed into the ground just isn't fun.

 

Looking at your list, you have 33 models and 6 vehicles in a 2,000 point game and you have just 2.5 units that are excellent Marine killers (Vindicator and the Sternguard). For comparison, my 2,000 point GK list has 47 models, no vehicles. You are (perhaps) overspending on the models you have to make your list more fluffy; and you're right, fluff sometimes has trouble making it happen in a competitive tournament environment. I keep to the fluff amongst my friends, but with people I don't know, I go for the throat ;)

 

A summation of things I've learned for fighting Grey Knights:

 

1) Exploit their range band (have superior mobility). Either stay outside of their 24" range or ensure you get within 12" so your shooting equals theirs. If they are intending to assault, stay outside of their range band.

2) Make sure to bring anything AP3 or better; Vindicators, Plasma, Vengeance rounds and (to a lesser extent) Melta. This will serve you well in tourney settings since a majority of players are MEQ.

3) All single model units (Crowe, Assassins, etc) can be easily handled by shooting them down since you can target them and not damage a squad instead of that model. The Vindicare in particular is sensitive to things that ignore cover or just weight of fire; the last time I brought a Vindicare he was removed from the table in the first turn after just one unit shot at him and forced too many cover saves on him.

4) Bringing anti-psyker is a risky bet against GK; you stand a decent chance of shutting down their powers, but you also stand a decent chance of dooming the squad the Librarian is with. Use wisely or not at all.

5) Mech up. A turn the GK units have to spend shooting at your transports is a turn they're not shooting up your troops. That said, don't spend much on your transports since their purpose is essentially a single turn of mobility and shielding for your infantry.

 

Also note that GKT only get a 4++ in assault if they have the regular Nemesis Force Sword, and only a 5++ against shooting. If they have the Nemesis Warding Stave they have a 2++ in assault and still a 5++ in shooting. Every GKT that has a Hammer, Halberd, or Falchions has a 5++ in assault and versus shooting.

 

 

Losing tells us more about ourselves than victory does. Next time you crash out against Grey Knights take the time to congratulate your opponent, and ask them where they think you went wrong. Ask them what they would have done differently, what units in their army they consider to be priority targets. Take this into consideration modify your list or playing style a little if needed, and then go into the next fight optimistic, either of victory, or of at least having a good time. Because in the end this is a game, and if you have a good time, you've won the game, regardless of the actual result.

This is, hands down, the best advice I've seen on this forum. It applies not only to GK, but to everything in this game.

I'd have to absolutely agree. DarkGuard raises the bar on my respect for him damn near every time he posts.

[jeffersonian000]

I've been playing a pure GK army for a while now, and have gotten a few games in with the new codex, using the old models (thankfully, I have a lot of old models). What I've found is that GK's play the same way they did before, we just know have updated rules and a bit more variety in unit choices.

 

For one, if I want transports, I'm not stuck with taking only Land Raiders (and I love my Land Raiders). All of our old units are now the elite units in this Dex: old GKT = Paladins, old PAGK = Purifiers, old FAGK = GKSS, GKIS = what we always wanted our FAGK to do, etc. Current GKT are watered down versions of what we had, but they are troops now, which is really nice. Inquisitors and there Henchlings are really just the same as before, only now a bit more useful and with updated rules. Assassins got flip-flopped: Vindicare went from bottom of the list to top, while the Callidus went from top of the list to bottom, with the other two sharing the middle ground of usefulness much as they did before. NDK's and SR's are interesting additions, but really are just different options rather than upgrades. Our old Heroes are still mostly force build choices, but now they are worth taking rather than minimizing as we use to do. All said GK's are now playable, but still balanced.

 

You defeat them the same way everyone did before, by treating them as expensive Marines. If you're loaded-out to kill MEQ, then you are already loaded to kill GK. Focus fire, tar pit, pop transports, don't rely on death star units, deploy as if your opponent has drop pods, stay mobile, and leave openings to draw your opponent into the cross-fire of supporting units. Isolate, break, and repeat.

 

SJ

[maturin]

I guess some of my problems lie in the fact that 1) I try to play a fluffy Crimson Fist army. and 2) my list was designed to be an all around list it isnt tailored to focus on just one list type. Sure, I could design it to have nothing but plasma and melta with 3 vindicators. I am certain that would help dramatically against GK. And I am certain that would mean getting beat by other list types as a result.

I guess the learning point I am going to take away from this is to stop trying to play a fluffy list. Sure it is thematice and can be fun but my fluffly lists do ok in most situations but obviously are not "competitive". That has actually been a problem of mine in a variety of games in all my years. Take a concept, try to play it within the framework of the game system and watch it flounder because it is not efficient.

So back to the army list. Screw trying to fit the 40k fluff for CF being short on Tac squads and regular battle brothers but having a glut of Veterans and scouts. From here out I'm building my lists to give me the best advantage possible so that I can enjoy playing, win or lose.

 

Oh, come on now yodaid764 - you're taking our points the wrong way here. No one has said that you can't be fluffy and competitive at all. None of the advice that I gave, for instance, prevents you from building a _very_ fluffy yet effective, take-all-comers CF army. You just need to tweak your unit list to be the best of what it can be, given the constraints of your fluff. I actually play a non-fluffy Sallies list now, which would actually be a perfect CF army. It's full of vets and scouts, only 1 tac squad....and it's very effective! It's also the list that I beat foot GK with (mentioned earlier).

 

Surely you can see that Sternies are the perfect take-all-comers unit - anti-MEQ, anti-horde, anti-MC. So load up! Drop your LRC, Chronus, and Ven Dread and you can fill out to 2 full sternguard squads with combis and LC's still, and add in a Vanguard Vet counter charge squad. Add a LSS/scouts squad for mobility. And then practice, practice, practice.

 

As jeffersonian and Something Wycked have already pointed out, gearing up to be anti-GK/MEQ is probably the smartest thing you can do to prepare an all-comers list. It doesn't mean you have to sacrifice anti-horde or anti-MC, it just means to make sure you have lots of redundancy and capability to do anti-MEQ as well.

[thade]

I guess the learning point I am going to take away from this is to stop trying to play a fluffy list. Sure it is thematice and can be fun but my fluffly lists do ok in most situations but obviously are not "competitive".

I exclusively play fluffy lists that fit my chapter. I never field hammernators, and very, very rarely field tac terminators. I use the BA codex and I do not use Death Company, librarian Dreadnoughts, Storm Ravens, Sanguinary Guard, or Baal-variant preds...because my guys are Salamander successors. Not Blood Angels. A typical list will include:

- Bare minimum, two tactical squads, each with a power fist.

- Two or more Sanguinary Guard (Apothecaries)

- Sternguard

- A single assault squad, on foot, in a Redeemer

- A librarian in TDA with a Storm Shield

- Devestators

 

Not a single marine with a jump pack. I do use jump troops at times, but I do so very situationally. I do pretty well with lists like this, tabling two of three opponents at my last Ardboyz game (the third tabled me to take first place...putting me well below fifth...isn't scoring a weird beast in this game?) so I don't feel gimped at all.

[DarkGuard]

Oh, come on now yodaid764 - you're taking our points the wrong way here. No one has said that you can't be fluffy and competitive at all. None of the advice that I gave, for instance, prevents you from building a _very_ fluffy yet effective, take-all-comers CF army. You just need to tweak your unit list to be the best of what it can be, given the constraints of your fluff. I actually play a non-fluffy Sallies list now, which would actually be a perfect CF army. It's full of vets and scouts, only 1 tac squad....and it's very effective! It's also the list that I beat foot GK with (mentioned earlier).

 

 

Hear hear, fantastic advice. The sad thing is that a lot of people think that to be competitive you can't be fluffy, the truth is very different. Optimised lists, which are different from competitive, don't tend to be especially fluffy, but most competitive list can easily be fluffy as well. I mean, Pedro is one of the most competitive HQ choices because he gives us awesome rules and scoring Sternguard. So Sternguard with mixed combis and special weapons in transports, a couple of Scout squads for mandatory troops and rear field objective holding, and a couple of long-range units like combi-preds and typhoons, plus a couple of melta units like bikes and speeders, and you've got a fluffy but yet competitive list.

 

exclusively play fluffy lists that fit my chapter. I never field hammernators, and very, very rarely field tac terminators. I use the BA codex and I do not use Death Company, librarian Dreadnoughts, Storm Ravens, Sanguinary Guard, or Baal-variant preds...because my guys are Salamander successors. Not Blood Angels.

 

Hmm, sounds similar to my fluffy lists. The Terminators are off chasing the Fallen across the galaxy and have nothing to do with the Battle Companies, so I don't field Terminators at all. And I daresay if I played Blood Angels I'd pretty much do what you do thade, or more likely just take loads of Assault Marines for a fluffy 8th Company list <_<.

 

I'd have to absolutely agree. DarkGuard raises the bar on my respect for him damn near every time he posts.

 

Oh stop it, you'll make me blush :).

[thade]

Hmm, sounds similar to my fluffy lists. The Terminators are off chasing the Fallen across the galaxy and have nothing to do with the Battle Companies, so I don't field Terminators at all. And I daresay if I played Blood Angels I'd pretty much do what you do thade, or more likely just take loads of Assault Marines for a fluffy 8th Company list <_<.

They're not Blood Angels. :) They're Red Shields. Salamander successors. I used the vanilla dex until I found I couldn't run an effective assault army with it...then burned out. My old club pushed me into the BA codex (unwillingly) but I fell in love with it. The Librarian powers in particular make a LOT more sense for an assault-friendly army, and now even my tac marines feel like they fair as I'd expect them too in assaults.

 

My chapter has only a handful of TDA left that's functional, and their last techmarine is interred in a dread...so best he can do is advise on repairs. So, yea, only a handful of TDA left that's functional, and command members exclusively wear them: one librarian, the chapter champion (a counts-as captain termie with two lit claws) and (still planned) the head apothecary (Yes, a Sanguinary Priest in TDA) and a Reclusiarch. For the "bamf factor".

 

Also, Hammernators are for pansies. There, I said it.

[DarkGuard]

Hmm, sounds similar to my fluffy lists. The Terminators are off chasing the Fallen across the galaxy and have nothing to do with the Battle Companies, so I don't field Terminators at all. And I daresay if I played Blood Angels I'd pretty much do what you do thade, or more likely just take loads of Assault Marines for a fluffy 8th Company list <_<.

They're not Blood Angels. ^_^ They're Red Shields. Salamander successors. I used the vanilla dex until I found I couldn't run an effective assault army with it...then burned out. My old club pushed me into the BA codex (unwillingly) but I fell in love with it. The Librarian powers in particular make a LOT more sense for an assault-friendly army, and now even my tac marines feel like they fair as I'd expect them too in assaults.

 

My chapter has only a handful of TDA left that's functional, and their last techmarine is interred in a dread...so best he can do is advise on repairs. So, yea, only a handful of TDA left that's functional, and command members exclusively wear them: one librarian, the chapter champion (a counts-as captain termie with two lit claws) and (still planned) the head apothecary (Yes, a Sanguinary Priest in TDA) and a Reclusiarch. For the "bamf factor".

 

Also, Hammernators are for pansies. There, I said it.

 

I just meant the army book, no offence to your Chapter thade.

 

And I may have to sig that last sentence, fantastic :).

[thade]

I just meant the army book, no offence to your Chapter thade.

Oh, no offense taken whatsoever. I just, you know, really enjoy any opportunity - however manufactured by myself - to gab about MY chapter.

 

Actually, I just got used to explaining it repeatedly because:

1. I painted them black and white with red trim before I learned of the existence of the Black Templar; often I'm asked if they're BT.

2. I use the BA codex, so it's often assumed they are BA and I'm asked "Why aren't they red?".

 

Sorry, this is way off topic. Anyway, were I to pit my boys against GK, I would:

1. Count on keeping my librarian out of combat and using his hood; likely give him a jump pack and the shield power.

2. Use jump marines (which, thanks to my codex, are scoring) to counter-assault if it comes to it.

3. Whittle them down with bolter fire.

4. Leave the LR at home, using Rhinos instead; I feel like the psycannons will make it just a very expensive Rhino that never gets to fire.

[DarkGuard]

I just meant the army book, no offence to your Chapter thade.

Oh, no offense taken whatsoever. I just, you know, really enjoy any opportunity - however manufactured by myself - to gab about MY chapter.

 

Actually, I just got used to explaining it repeatedly because:

1. I painted them black and white with red trim before I learned of the existence of the Black Templar; often I'm asked if they're BT.

2. I use the BA codex, so it's often assumed they are BA and I'm asked "Why aren't they red?".

 

I understand you here, my guys are painted Fenris Grey, as it is the foundation version of Shadow Grey (in my mind anyway). So I'm constantly asked if they are Space Wolves, or bizarrely, Ultramarines. Actually, people don't ask, they make a wise sound and go "ahhh, Space Wolves". So I'm very used to continually giving a brief run down of my Chapter's fluff.

 

Anyway, I'm derailing my own thread, I shall desist.

 

Following in thade's fashion, if I were to take on Grey Knights with my own army, I tend to knock out any mech they have with my Rifleman and Typhoons, while MM/HF Speeders deep strike and sort out the heavier stuff. Tactical squads stay in transports and use the top hatch for plasma gun and MM fire, while the Honour Guard sit nearby ready to react to threats. The Vindicator draws fire and acts scary, occasionally blowing up a squad if it feels like it.

 

That's how I do it. Personally I agree with Something Wycked in that the Libby is best left at home, while you can hood a lot of powers, he'll die quickly, and a proper hard combat character may be a better bet.

[thade]

The thing that concerns me about GK is I'm worried that simply grounding their rides won't at all take them out of the fight. My effective range is 24"...if I'm stationary. Their effective range is 24"...on the move. Their foot troops can out shoot me with stormbolters and psycannons...the latter of which make me nervous. 4 Str 7 rending shots is at best a lot of armor saves. At worst, I'm down four more marines with each cast of his dice.

 

Assaulting them seems like suicide, but I certainly would charge them before they could charge me, given the chance. (ie if it can't be avoided, cut projected losses in half by stealing the charge.) If I understand Purifiers correctly (here at work, without a codex at hand) they only get their "WE'RE ON FIRE!" pre-combat hits on the charge. Otherwise, it really is flat out insane to charge or be charged by Purifiers.

 

I think my long range anti-tank teams will ignore their tanks altogether and focus on Purifiers.

 

Has anybody fielded or thrown down with a wound-allocated Paladin team? Are they as durable as Wound-alloc Nobz? In theory they must be more so, given the 2+/5++ (4++ in some cases), one guy with a 2++ in melee, 2 wounds a pop, and each with a unique load out. I'm curious to see if 1. it's happening in practice, and 2. how good marine players are at it; ork players have been doing it since late 4th ed. :D

[greatcrusade08]

Also, Hammernators are for pansies. There, I said it.

 

here here, well said my friend.. ontop of that they are the least imaginative unit in the C:SM dex.. given the penchant for BA/SW/GK armies at the moment (and the crud loads of interwebz lists we see) i tend to enjoy games more when my opponent has a theme or has a unique/interesting list.

sure top tier competative lists may hve to sacrifice the fluff a little, but in general competition there is no reason to sacrifice the theme in order to play and win

[thade]

Also, Hammernators are for pansies. There, I said it.

 

here here, well said my friend.. ontop of that they are the least imaginative unit in the C:SM dex.. given the penchant for BA/SW/GK armies at the moment (and the crud loads of interwebz lists we see) i tend to enjoy games more when my opponent has a theme or has a unique/interesting list.

sure top tier competative lists may hve to sacrifice the fluff a little, but in general competition there is no reason to sacrifice the theme in order to play and win

Cheers. :) And, agreed.