Just played my 46th draigo wing game

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I love that "strategy" Nurglez (I just typed nugglez, and lol'ed), and have used it many times. The idea that because it is big and imposing you should kill it seems to be a reaction bred into mankind, no matter what century.

 

I plan on running a DK once I reach the 2K mark, making sure I can get scoring bodies onto the field first.

 

End of Line

[Zagman]

I love that "strategy" Nurglez (I just typed nugglez, and lol'ed), and have used it many times. The idea that because it is big and imposing you should kill it seems to be a reaction bred into mankind, no matter what century.

 

I plan on running a DK once I reach the 2K mark, making sure I can get scoring bodies onto the field first.

 

End of Line

 

Why wait until 2k for a DK, its so easy to make them scoring.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

A pt is well worth it, and at 1500 points I include one instead of an apoth, just because he provides such a big distraction that even if he doesn't survive, he helps me win

 

Better than an apothecary I think I get, since a lot of stuff which is aimed at Paladins ignores feel no pain, but you'd rather spend points on a PT then, let's say, an Inquisitor in TDA with a psycannon?

[thade]

Don't count on Draigo's GM power to increase the number of scoring units you have: the GM power is supposed to afford you tactical flexibility, not make up for shortcomings in your list. That said...

 

While a scoring DK seems like a great idea, it might be nice - even during a scoring mission - to have the giant thing Outflank or Scout-move. Remember to win a scoring mission you need to control one more point than your opponent...which can be accomplished by controlling one point and keeping everything else contested or locked away from control points by the rest of your force. Shunting that DK onto an objective come turn five that your opponent previously controlled can be a game changer, whether the beast can score or not.

[Zagman]

I completely disagree. I can count of Driago's TGS to increase the number of scoring units, its a minimum increase of 1! How is one if not more scoring DKs not tactical flexibility. The purpose of TGS is to alleviate shortcomings. A scoring PT DK is an immense asses, especially on Seize Ground missions where an objective is placed as far a possible away from everything else, it makes it very easy to secure an objective utilizing a relatively hard and very mobile unit capable of handling any basic objective holding unit. Simply put I choose to make 1-3 DKs scoring in Seize Ground, and usually choose scout for Capture and Control. Annihilation is either scout or reroll 1s.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Whoa, hold on now, the DK may have a large ass, but calling it immense makes him sound obese!

[thade]

"The purpose of TGS is to address shortcomings"... interesting. I mean, it's your opinion of course; there's no reason we can't disagree. Consider, however, that your list is static when you write it and that Grand Strat allows you to make a modification to it when you're setting up and viewing your opponent and his list.

 

If it's you setting up, your opponent can safely assume you'll use Grand Strat to increase your number of scoring units. He needn't sweat any surprises.

 

If it's me setting up, he can't make that call; he might have to deal with an outflanking DK, or Psycannons and Stormbolters that re-roll 1s, etc.

 

Flexibility is a very good thing as it gives you an advantage: it makes you less predictable.

[Zagman]

Whoa, hold on now, the DK may have a large ass, but calling it immense makes him sound obese!

Lol, typo...

[Zagman]

"The purpose of TGS is to address shortcomings"... interesting. I mean, it's your opinion of course; there's no reason we can't disagree. Consider, however, that your list is static when you write it and that Grand Strat allows you to make a modification to it when you're setting up and viewing your opponent and his list.

 

If it's you setting up, your opponent can safely assume you'll use Grand Strat to increase your number of scoring units. He needn't sweat any surprises.

 

If it's me setting up, he can't make that call; he might have to deal with an outflanking DK, or Psycannons and Stormbolters that re-roll 1s, etc.

 

Flexibility is a very good thing as it gives you an advantage: it makes you less predictable.

 

The context of the argument is in regards to a DriagoWing army which is a low model count low mobility army. By definition an inherent shortcoming. TGS allows me overcome and alleviate that shortcoming through making a random number of highly mobile DKs scoring. I'll gladly let my opponent assume I'm about to make my army quite a bit more powerful, I don't need to surprise him. In other situations it simply makes my army more dangerous through scouting or increased damage output. It doesn't matter if your smart opponent can guess what you'll choose, you are still stronger for it.

[thade]

While I don't agree that "only two scoring units" is a short-coming (indeed, many marine lists I've seen have only two tac squads and beyond that, elites and heavies out to wazoo), there are other ways of addressing it: in particular, more than a few posters here have suggested using solo Paladins to hold objectives while the Deathstar pushes forward. It's not something I'm keen on, but I will try it.

 

If that DK can score: hey...he might capture a point. More than likely, however, with his durability, inability to hide, and combat-potential, he'll end up contesting a point...or sitting on a point that is contested (i.e. he won't be controlling it). If that's the case, then outflanking him means he'll be in a better position to contest something, putting me into a better position to win.

 

You don't have to have a lot of points to win; you just need one more than your opponent has, which can be accomplished by sitting a scoring unit on your home objective and contesting and killing everything else on the table...which is how Nurglez et al have been winning their games, per their bat reps.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is an article I just wrote on my blog how to build a Draigowing army:

 

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2011/08/d...-selection.html

 

G :D

[nurglez]

A pt is well worth it, and at 1500 points I include one instead of an apoth, just because he provides such a big distraction that even if he doesn't survive, he helps me win

 

Better than an apothecary I think I get, since a lot of stuff which is aimed at Paladins ignores feel no pain, but you'd rather spend points on a PT then, let's say, an Inquisitor in TDA with a psycannon?

 

to me, yes. at 2000 points, my second HQ is a libby, at 1500 points, if i got rid of my PT from my DK, i would have a total footslogging force (apart from deepstriking), the potential 30 inch move by a PT DK is awesome, and the ability to move 12 inches normally is wonderful too. by running him ahead and causing a distraction I let my paladins survive more (obviously, depending on missions/opponents), While I have 15 paladins, I prefer to keep 1 squad at 10 as it is much more durable, and even at 260 points for my DK (PT, GS and HI) he is the cheapest scoring unit in my army, if I make him scoring... wow thats worrying heh.

 

And Thade, its best to do what you feel is right, I have made my DK scoring, and then wasted it by charging him forward and letting him die, however, did my opponent put more effort into bringing him down because he was scoring? who knows?

 

I much prefer the reroll 1's when wounding personally (the heavy incinerator is awesome vs t4 or less creatures with a 4+ save or worse), but everyone is different, and playing every game the same way is a sure way to lose eventually (for example, I rarely ever choose the first turn when playing with my renegade logan wing, as I have 3 drop pods, however, to keep my friends wary, I sometimes randomly try to steal the initiative ;) ).

 

oh and BO, love the quote "Some don't consider this type of army to be competitive" when discussing Draigo wing ;)

[thade]

And Thade, its best to do what you feel is right, I have made my DK scoring, and then wasted it by charging him forward and letting him die, however, did my opponent put more effort into bringing him down because he was scoring? who knows?

I'm willing to bet some real money on the thought that your opponent will put huge volumes of fire into that monstrosity, whether it's scoring or not. Ignoring a jump-capable melee nightmare which is knocking on your doorstep is likely threat enough, scoring or no. If it happens to be scoring, well cheers to your opponent in that he took a scoring unit away from you...which it sounds like you use him to simply soak fire anyway.

 

I'm not saying it's not a good idea to make him scoring; I can definitely see it being very useful in certain venues. However, I don't feel it's necessary to always do it. That's my point, really.

 

By-the-by, my first six Paladins are glued and magnetized: two with Psycannons, an Apothecary, and several weapon options. I am getting closer. @_@

[nurglez]

Pic's or it never happened ;)

 

Aye, though a footslogging DK is a cheap tough troop choice, and being able to shove a scoring PT DK 30 inches on to the table without any issues (apart from huge base size) is always a nice option.

 

Though I do think that it is slightly wasted putting scoring on DK's, some games it might be the right option.

[thade]

Pic's or it never happened :P

Accepted. I'll post them when I get home this eve.

 

Aye, though a footslogging DK is a cheap tough troop choice, and being able to shove a scoring PT DK 30 inches on to the table without any issues (apart from huge base size) is always a nice option.

 

Though I do think that it is slightly wasted putting scoring on DK's, some games it might be the right option.

Definitely. Though I see that 30" ZOMG-;)-DID-THIS-THING-COME-FROM as more of a late-game contesting move than a late game objective grabber, you can't deny that it definitely is a great way to grab an objective late game.

[Zagman]

While I don't agree that "only two scoring units" is a short-coming (indeed, many marine lists I've seen have only two tac squads and beyond that, elites and heavies out to wazoo), there are other ways of addressing it: in particular, more than a few posters here have suggested using solo Paladins to hold objectives while the Deathstar pushes forward. It's not something I'm keen on, but I will try it.

 

If that DK can score: hey...he might capture a point. More than likely, however, with his durability, inability to hide, and combat-potential, he'll end up contesting a point...or sitting on a point that is contested (i.e. he won't be controlling it). If that's the case, then outflanking him means he'll be in a better position to contest something, putting me into a better position to win.

 

You don't have to have a lot of points to win; you just need one more than your opponent has, which can be accomplished by sitting a scoring unit on your home objective and contesting and killing everything else on the table...which is how Nurglez et al have been winning their games, per their bat reps.

 

Most SM players will have more than two troops once you reach 1.5k coupled with the ability to cheaply combat squad, otherwise they are rather easy to beat by any experienced player in any objective mission. Can't compare apples to oranges, you can get 4 scoring units for SM for just more than one 5 man paladin unit.

 

You don't need to outflank to position a DK favorably, they have a single 30" move. You are making many assumptions and comments that don't reflect most of my experiences. I have found PT DKs to be excellent objective holders and contestors, especially your enemies. It all comes down to opportunity and execution.

 

Yes, you only need one more objective than you opponent. If you intelligently place your objectives in Seize Ground a PT DK is more than able to take an out of the way objective from the enemy as most objective holders cannot stand up to a DK for more than a round or two of combat. This strategy has won me more than one game as that single out of reach objective was the deciding factor.

 

In Seize Ground making as many of my DKs scoring as possible has NEVER been a bad call in my experience. Opponents will target scoring DKs more than normal.

 

Do you even play DriagoWing Thade? I know Nurglez uses a particular strategy and list, which is a modification of my list from long ago, and it works. I run 3 PT DKs at 2k, I usually shunt all three turn one as their main purpose for my army is to pressure my enemies greatest sources of ID firepower immediately and take focus off of my paladins. If my DKs survive, they then contest or hold objectives as able. They are meant to be targets. I shunt first as it is absolutely critical to me that my DKs hit whatever dishes out the most S8+AP2- as soon as possible.

 

@Thade Why did you build an apothecary. Its the worst upgrade you can buy for a paladin. A terrible waste of points.

[thade]

Do you even play DriagoWing?

It's funny you should ask that question; I'm roughly one month out from fielding them (they are still in assembly and paint stage). Hence my presence in all of these talks. I'm studying and prepraing.

 

While I appreciate your experiences, I submit that an appeal to authority isn't a valid method to dismiss any of my theories or thoughts. I play two to three games a week with my marines and have since I started playing (barring a brief haitus for moving). I field two scoring units at times and I do pretty well. Contest, kill, and control one point: that's all that's needed. I see no reason why these basic tactics won't translate to an even smaller force.

 

I run 3 PT DKs at 2k, I usually shunt all three turn one as their main purpose for my army is to pressure my enemies greatest sources of ID firepower immediately and take focus off of my paladins. If my DKs survive, they then contest or hold objectives as able.

It sounds to me like you've had a lot of good experiences with DKs; I'm going to start with one DK (going more paladin/troop heavy) but will likely jump up to two (Lancaster's square law being what it is) after a while.

 

The reason I support outflanking with the DK is not because it needs to Outflank to get anywhere; as you say, it can jump 30" once per game (with the PT). The reason I suggest using Outflank - or even simply holding it in reserves - is that it saves you a surprise objective contest for late game. If you use it Paladin Nurglez style - i.e. to soak up anti-tank fire for your Paladins - then you obviously want it on the table early. I'm not committed to any one use case for it; I see many and I intend to exercise them all.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I haven't even built a Draigo-wing yet, never used a DK one way or the other.... I do play a lot of games at 1500 though. And the thought of fielding one 4 wound XL terminator who costs more than a 5 man terminator squad, well that rubs me the wrong way. (With just the PT a DK is at 205 and he really should have a heavy incinerator and at least a hammer to be decent, which tops him out at 245 - 5 termies and a Psycannon is 225). I realize the PT is awesome, but 75 points awesome in a 1500 points list? I am not so sure. But it is all theory-hammer to me right now. I say, ditch the PT, run him up in front of Paladins, give them a cover save, and when he is close enough to use the Heavy Incinerator, go to town. If he is ignored, the enemy will pay later, if not, the paladins are spared some fire. And at 170 points, he's a much better deal than 4 terminators for what he can do. With the extra points, which are dearly needed at 1500, paladins squads can be upgraded with a lot of goodies, or an additional 3 wound model in TDA with a psycannon can be purchased.

[Zagman]

@Thade I am not dismissing you. You are inexperienced with DriagoWing, yet make definitive statements as if from experience; some of which I disagree with. Theories are great, but experience is vastly more important. At 2k, I have 15 paladins and 3 DKs. Now, if I do not make any of my DKs scoring I have at max 3 objective holding units. A smart opponent can beat you. But, if I roll average and end up with two more scoring units, IE DKs I have greatly improved my chances of winning. Remember, your opponent can contest your objectives too.

[thade]

Are you saying that I'm wrong and that there are no other ways of addressing a shortage of scoring units?

 

If you are, I assert definitively that you are mistaken. ;) I submit as evidence not only my theories above, but the bat reps of other players that support my theories.

 

Experience is indeed valuable. How many times have you tried not making your DK trio scoring? How badly did that pan out?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The NDK is a good unit for Draigowing. I believe the best way to kit them is with PT and HI. Most games they are going to die... that is just the way it is. If they can destroy a critical enemy unit they have done their job.

 

G

[Zagman]

I have never said that. But, IMO it is the best solution to Seize Ground.

 

It cost me a Draw, and I consider it the mistake that cost me the win. I also made the same mistake barely pulling out a victory, yes it was a win, but should have been much more solid. Considering that I've only Drawn twice(Once C&C, Once Seize Ground) and lost once(Annihilation) out of 25 games. IMO Seize Ground makes scoring DKs mandatory, and in my experience has made the difference in multiple games.

[Zagman]

The NDK is a good unit for Draigowing. I believe the best way to kit them is with PT and HI. Most games they are going to die... that is just the way it is. If they can destroy a critical enemy unit they have done their job.

 

G

 

I agree. One of the best advantages to fielding DKs is that they take large amounts of pressure off of your Paladins and are susceptible to the same firepower as Paladins reducing the amount of ID Paladin Deaths. They are also likely to kill something or even survive to be of greater use.

 

Also, in regards to your guide to DriagoWing unit selection. Your guides reads a bit biased and opinionated towards your Flavor of DriagoWing, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I disagree with your purchasing of Psybolt Ammunition for Paladin Squads, with Holocaust and Psycannons too few models benefit from it which greatly reduces its cost to benefit ratio, and Paladins are expensive enough already.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Psybolt is best utilized when you split a 10 man unit into combat squads. I have found that the S5 is great versus side armor on IG... its almost just worth it for that alone.

 

I see only very limited use for Holocaust as the squad will not be able to cast HH or activate their NFW the same turn... its very meh IMO.

 

G :lol:

[nurglez]

Holocaust is rather situational, and does depend on your taste and what you are fighting with. Throwing down a str 5 ap- pie plate has its use, especially with solo paladins (I can imagine). Maybe you don't want to charge? maybe there is an objective in cover with your paladins on it, and some genestealers are heading your way?

 

Out of all the games I've played with Draigo wing, I've used the same DK, 260 points, HI GS and PT, and the majority of the time he is awesome. To me he has the cool model effect, he's so huge, he attracts fire like nothing, but due to the fact that he doesn't suffer ID, if he absorbs some lascannons or meltas, good. Fail 4 saves with him vs melta and he dies, the same with paladins and you have lost 4 paladins.

 

And saying again, my army has NO speed above walking. If my opponent forces me to deploy far in my deployment, and sets their objective deep in theirs, I'd have to deepstrike to get there. a PT DK can mooch around taking pot shots, then make a play for it later, I'm just annoyed that the DK doesn't come with grenades, but on the plus side he can sweeping advance :lol:

 

3 upgrades I am yet to try out in my force are apothecary's, psybolts and the banner. I've done fine without them, not saying they don't have a use but I just cant find the points for them.