tiberium40k Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Ever since that evil little book was published people believe the AL to be cunning beyond reason and all powerful. The Alpha Legion`s style of warfare suffers from bad writing. Too many people think they are so good at what they do that they are practically invincible because the writers only show their plans working to the last detail ( :D ) and even then its only at the final conclusion. Thus far, they are the Mary Stu`s of the legions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 They are that good at what they do. Just like Ultramarines are that much better at regular warfare than any other legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 They are that good at what they do. Just like Ultramarines are that much better at regular warfare than any other legion. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Taurus Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 They are that good at what they do. Just like Ultramarines are that much better at regular warfare than any other legion. Lol. Bring it on pal :) Having thought about it a little, some more scenes from the HH that I'd love to see. The scene where Dorn is being told that Horus has betrayed the Emperor at Istvaan. The look of horror, anger, and sheer disbelief on his face and the palpable tension in the air. Flight of the Eisenstein Spoiler ahead ' ' ' That and him breaking Garro's jaw by slapping him with the back of his hand, as well as raising his chainsword to decapitate him. I remember laughing out loud when reading that, it came so surprising that it almost appeared comical. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Terra Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I haven't read all the previous posts so apologies if it's already mentioned. One of the worst ret-cons GW ever did was replacing this man, Ollanius Pius with a Fist and then a Custodian. I'd love to see the final battle on Horus' ship where Horus has his Father at his mercy and in stumbles Ollanius, the last surviving Imperial Army member of the strike force the Emperor gathered from the immediate troops around him the moment he detected Horus drop his shields, who survived on the demon-infested ship where even marines and Custodes didn't. Ollanius comes across a veritable god laid low by the chosen servant of the actual gods of hell. Ollanius sees his emperor wracked and broken with Horus standing over him. Horus takes a moment to savor his victory and taunt brave Ollanius, offering him a chance to renounce his emperor and bow to the new god Horus or have his very soul taken to feed Horus' new masters. Ollanius, knowing he was a mere human against essentially a god, still stayed faithful to his emperor and charged - lasgun blazing and did his duty and held the ;) line. When Horus used the powers of his new masters to flay Brave Ollanius' very soul the Emperor finally knew his son was forever lost to him and must be destroyed at any cost and the Emperor finally unleashed his full power at his greatest failure - Horus the Betrayer. *Takes a few moments to shed some manly tears* I'm still hoping Ollanius gets ret-conned back into the books for the Siege and this hypothetical movie. I love the scene because it sums up what to me the Guard (and the Imperial Army in this case) are all about; brave men and women, ordinary humans all, standing against the night - no matter the odds or the power of the foe. Short of the four gods of chaos themselves no lone Imperial Army soldier could have stood against a stronger foe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Wrath of Terra, i couldnt agree with you more. the loss of Pius was one of the stupidier retcons GW has done so far. i hope they correct it. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 the loss of Pius was one of the stupidier retcons GW has done so far. i hope they correct it. Was it? An Imperial Guard soldier walks in to a battle between Gods (essentially) and yet he distracts Horus who is locked on focussed on killing the Emperor? As if. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasoroth Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I think the fundamental disagreement between Alpharius and Guilliman was what the definition of a warrior was. Guilliman followed a recognizably 21st century philosophy (if we had 8 foot tall genetically engineered killers). Armored assault, air cavalry, wars of attrition, guerrilla warfare, sneak attacks, raids...these were all aspects of warfare that he had mastered, aspects that I would argue the Alpha Legion were capable of pulling off as well. They had the same armor and weapons, tanks and voidcraft after all. But Guilliman believed in a very rigid chain of command where the decision of your superior officer is final. I am not saying that Guilliman never asked for the opinion of his subordinates or anything like that but you cannot deny that he had a very firm belief in the hierarchical nature of the military, where it went Emperor -> Guilliman -> Chapter Masters -> Captains -> Lieutenants -> Sergeants -> Battle Brothers. Furthermore Guilliman had a very set definition of how a soldier was supposed to act. An Ultramarine was expected to be lethal in battle, not crazed. I would draw a comparison between modern western soldiers of today and the Ultramarines insofar as that while they were both expected to put big holes in small targets, skull hunting and bathing in blood was frowned upon. The mission of the Ultramarines was to defeat the enemy and rebuild the planet, to obey the commands of his superiors and act with honor. The saying "an officer and a gentlemen" applies fairly well here, these are soldiers not psychopaths. The Alpha Legion in contrast strikes me (to use a facetious analogy) as an army of secret agents. Alpharius is more than capable of fighting a conventional pitched battle but he prefers to use double agents, traitors, espionage and intrigue to win his battles rather than through displays of force and firepower. His men obey him but are more free thinking by far than their brother astartes. Alpharius trusts his sons with broad objectives (pacify Planet Whatever) and carte blanche to achieve the goal however they see fit. If the Ultramarines are the US Military exaggerated to fit the scale and tone of the 40k universe than the Alpha Legion is the CIA that has been similarly exaggerated (even the practice of having Agency handlers recruiting local informants is parallelled by Alpha Legion marines recruiting Imperial Army soldiers in Legion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 the loss of Pius was one of the stupidier retcons GW has done so far. i hope they correct it. Was it? An Imperial Guard soldier walks in to a battle between Gods (essentially) and yet he distracts Horus who is locked on focussed on killing the Emperor? As if. Yes, it was. because the true might of the Imperium is actually the common man. I like the idea that the common man actually matters in the crapsack world of 40k. everything is so focused on the grimdark aspect that the idea man can do something amazing appeals to me. and lets remember that the world of 40k is inhabited by giant insects, fungus monsters and genetically enhaunced power armored humans...mere guardsman have to do somethign awesome just to compete. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 It'd all depend on who'd get there grubby paws on the script and edit/water it down for the people who have no idea what the HH series is about. Looking at what studio's have done to some good novels then totally feth'd them up, I'd be skeptical as to what kind of film it'd be. To make it, it wouldn't be an issue considering Avatar was groundbreaking and now you have Speilberg using the same techniques to make the new Tin Tin film. So many variables etc and there's the question of how many parts would there be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Taurus Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 If the Ultramarines are the US Military exaggerated to fit the scale and tone of the 40k universe than the Alpha Legion is the CIA that has been similarly exaggerated I must say I have great difficulty with such allegory. Remember the appearance, theme and organisation of the UMs is rather made to remind players of the Roman Legions especially during the post-republic period. I mean the story of Guilliman and his upbringing on Macragge as well as the betrayal against his two fathers (the adoptive & Big E) is strongly reminiscent of Octavian Caesar. The only Space Marines formation that remotely reminds one of the US military are the Raptors Chapter during their exile on that jungle deathworld (Vietnam analogy). cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Pius' None Shall Pass at Horus was one of the greatest things in older 40K lore, retconning it away was the absolute pinnacle of stupid retcons by GW - even stupider than getting rid of the squats and the hints that Sigmar was a primarch. Ollanius Pius, the most legitimate tough SOB in history of 40K. Ps. as an aside, just started reading Inquisition War (with Grimm's squatness intact), damn and blasted how much cooler the slightly bonkers 40K was back then compared to the way to serious outlook of today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Was it? An Imperial Guard soldier walks in to a battle between Gods (essentially) and yet he distracts Horus who is locked on focussed on killing the Emperor? As if. Why'd Horus take him as a threat? Because with balls that big, Pius could have done anything he damn well wanted. Reality itself is scared of someone who's that badass. "Hmm, a literal demi-god, further infused with the power of the 4 Chaos Gods themselves, you say? Pfft! Death awaits all traitors, in the form of my bloody bayonet!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqui Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Was it? An Imperial Guard soldier walks in to a battle between Gods (essentially) and yet he distracts Horus who is locked on focussed on killing the Emperor? As if. Why'd Horus take him as a threat? Because with balls that big, Pius could have done anything he damn well wanted. Reality itself is scared of someone who's that badass. "Hmm, a literal demi-god, further infused with the power of the 4 Chaos Gods themselves, you say? Pfft! Death awaits all traitors, in the form of my bloody bayonet!" My take on it is this: The Guardsman knew he was going to die, especially when he saw the state of the Emperor. To turn away and try to escape was futile. I think he had a moment of true clarity. He didn't think of "going out in a blaze of Glory". He just knew what he had to do. And did it. The Emperor needed a second to act. He got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 The only reason Horus would have turned would be to take out a threat powerful enough to hurt him, ie another Primarch. A lone Imperial Guardsman couldn't have hurt Horus in the slighest and so Horus wouldn't have bothered even acknowledging him. That is why the fluff was retconned because it was utter faf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqui Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 The only reason Horus would have turned would be to take out a threat powerful enough to hurt him, ie another Primarch. A lone Imperial Guardsman couldn't have hurt Horus in the slighest and so Horus wouldn't have bothered about him. That is why the fluff was retconned because it was utter faf. I was of the opinion that Horus paused because he was taunting the Emperor. "Here is a lowly Guardsman. I'm going to kill him in the worst way possible. And you can't stop me." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 The only reason Horus would have turned would be to take out a threat powerful enough to hurt him, ie another Primarch. A lone Imperial Guardsman couldn't have hurt Horus in the slighest and so Horus wouldn't have bothered even acknowledging him. That's not how it works. Ollanius had balls that clanked loudly enough for Horus to notice. This is 40K, the setting that runs solely on Rule of Cool, and arguments like "the only reason Horus blah blah blah something reasonable" doesn't fit into the discussion. A doomed man, powered by only his ginormous testicular fortitude gives the finger to not one, not two, but four gods incarnate. That, my friends, is the essence of 40K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Horus noticed a mortal with more balls than himself. Pius did his duty in the face of certain death at the hands of a god who had just curb stomped another god and was about to curb stomp another god. That little man was badass LIKE A BOSS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasoroth Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 If the Ultramarines are the US Military exaggerated to fit the scale and tone of the 40k universe than the Alpha Legion is the CIA that has been similarly exaggerated I must say I have great difficulty with such allegory. Remember the appearance, theme and organisation of the UMs is rather made to remind players of the Roman Legions especially during the post-republic period. I mean the story of Guilliman and his upbringing on Macragge as well as the betrayal against his two fathers (the adoptive & Big E) is strongly reminiscent of Octavian Caesar. The only Space Marines formation that remotely reminds one of the US military are the Raptors Chapter during their exile on that jungle deathworld (Vietnam analogy). cheers I am not equating appearance and themes between the Ultramarines and modern military forces. Every different military organization will have its own traditions and history etc etc. Yes the Ultramarines borrow heavily from a Greco-Roman motif but they don't fight in fixed square formations like the Roman Legionaries did, there are numerous instances of Marines taking cover, providing suppressive fire, i.e. fighting like modern soldiers. As for organization, the Roman legions kind of set the basic standard for a standing western army and I would argue that that organization is still in place more or less unchanged. We may have replaced Centurions with Captains but their role and responsibilities remain the same. TL;DR: Just because Ultramarines look like Romans doesn't mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemesor Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Got into 40k at the beginning of 3rd Ed, so I never knew it pre-grimdark. Have to say Pius is better. For thematic reasons at least, it's just so much more awesome if it's a normal man going for it than a Fist or Custodian. Everyone loves to cheer for the underdog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I can see it now. Pius walks in at the low ready, bayonet fixed. He looks up and Horus has his boot on the Emperors chest with that badass mace raised over his head, and Pius takes a deep breath and lets out a scream of pure rage and charges at Horus. Horus blinks as it takes a moment for him to realize what is going on then smiles as he uses the force to make Pius explode like Dr. Mahattan could do. The Emperor is so deeply moved that he does the same to Horus. Or alternatively Pius ran in screaming LEEEEEROOOOYYYYYY JEEEEEENNNNNKKKKIIIINNNNS. Which would also be suitable for Wardian fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasoroth Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I think Pius is a representative of what heights humanity's spirit can achieve, of purity in the face of corruption, of courage in the face of evil, and of honor in the face of madness. So when Horus kills Pius it is symbolic of the Warmaster's rejection of everything good, showcasing how truly riddled with corruption the traitor was and how there was no turning back. I know why the changes in the confrontation between Horus and the Emperor were made, it just doesn't seem likely that some lowly Guardsman would make it that far but I think it was a mistake to try and incorporate "realism" into a story that is as much symbolic as it is descriptive. Pius' martyrdom serves as the realization the Emperor needed to destroy his corrupt son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 That's not how it works. Ollanius had balls that clanked loudly enough for Horus to notice. This is 40K, the setting that runs solely on Rule of Cool, and arguments like "the only reason Horus blah blah blah something reasonable" doesn't fit into the discussion. A doomed man, powered by only his ginormous testicular fortitude gives the finger to not one, not two, but four gods incarnate. The trouble is Pius McRetard didn't even do anything other than walk into the room and get ripped apart. There was no pointless mad rush, or hardcore bravery. He just died and then the Emperor took advantage of the distraction. I can see it now. Pius walks in at the low ready, bayonet fixed. He looks up and Horus has his boot on the Emperors chest with that badass mace raised over his head, and Pius takes a deep breath and lets out a scream of pure rage and charges at Horus. Horus blinks as it takes a moment for him to realize what is going on then smiles as he uses the force to make Pius explode like Dr. Mahattan could do. The Emperor is so deeply moved that he does the same to Horus. Don't you start getting involved in the Pius-gasm for christ sake. I would expect you to use more common sense than this lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 FANBOY AHOY! And shamelessly so. Go Mr. Pius! This is 40K. I don't see any reason to take this stuff any more seriously than "fanboy" type of admiration of seeing the Rule of Cool put into action. Well, unless it's Ian Watson's stuff, which is pretty much the only 40K related thing worth mentioning in civilized cricles (yeah, Abnett and ADB are good, but they still write gaming-fiction. Watson you can consider an author). 40K is silly. "Fanboys" are silly. That's a match made in heaven. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I personally prefer the Imperial Fist terminator. You know how I get hard ons for IFs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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