The "must have" scene

[Pulse]

I repeat;

 

The trouble is Pius McRetard didn't even do anything other than walk into the room and get ripped apart. There was no pointless mad rush, or hardcore bravery. He just died and then the Emperor took advantage of the distraction.

[Unintentional Batman]

Do you REALLY think I care one bit about what canon said/says/will say with my approach to the game and its fluff? ^_^

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Pulse - like Doghouse said, and I would believe, is that Horus was taunting the Emperor. Sure, Pius just walked in and died, and normally Horus wouldn't care what one guardsman could do. But he used this to savor the moment of victory, again as Doghouse said - "I'm going to kill him in the most horrific way imaginable and there is nothing you can do about it. Just watch."

 

The guardsman wasn't really important, but it was used to demonstrate just how far Horus had fallen - and the limits of the Emperor's powers.

[Marshal Rohr]

Maybe whoever walked in was supposed to be an allegory for Horus and by tearing him apart Horus demonstrate he was no longer the man he was?

[Pulse]

The guardsman wasn't really important, but it was used to demonstrate just how far Horus had fallen - and the limits of the Emperor's powers.

Maybe whoever walked in was supposed to be an allegory for Horus and by tearing him apart Horus demonstrate he was no longer the man he was?

 

Yes i know why Horus did it, but its awful, thats why it was retconned.

 

Can't argue with a retcon as it has effectively erased Pius from 40k current lore.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Pulse - like Doghouse said, and I would believe, is that Horus was taunting the Emperor. Sure, Pius just walked in and died, and normally Horus wouldn't care what one guardsman could do. But he used this to savor the moment of victory, again as Doghouse said - "I'm going to kill him in the most horrific way imaginable and there is nothing you can do about it. Just watch."

 

The guardsman wasn't really important, but it was used to demonstrate just how far Horus had fallen - and the limits of the Emperor's powers.

 

I always thought this was the whole point of Pius.

 

it wasnt that Horus killed him. It wasnt even the manner of how Horus killed him.

 

it was horus swatting him in such a casual, bored manner that goaded the Emperor to "unleash the beast" and kick things up to 11.

 

its like if you went out and kicked Hulk Hogan to show how tough you were, then punted a baby to show you just didnt care. most people would be more shocked at the punted baby.

 

WLK

[Pulse]

I always thought this was the whole point of Pius.

 

it wasnt that Horus killed him. It wasnt even the manner of how Horus killed him.

 

it was horus swatting him in such a casual, bored manner that goaded the Emperor to "unleash the beast" and kick things up to 11.

That was how it was written yes, but as i said now its been retconned it has gone - woohoo!

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I always thought this was the whole point of Pius.

 

it wasnt that Horus killed him. It wasnt even the manner of how Horus killed him.

 

it was horus swatting him in such a casual, bored manner that goaded the Emperor to "unleash the beast" and kick things up to 11.

That was how it was written yes, but as i said now its been retconned it has gone - woohoo!

 

yea, it was retconned, and i believe it was a mistake to do so.

 

but oh well. whats done is done for now.

 

WLK

[Capt. Taurus]

Just because Ultramarines look like Romans doesn't mean anything.

 

This may be so, yet the Ultramarines of all Legions/Chapters are the last to represent the US military.

Actually no chapter or even army in the 40k universe is made to represent any modern military formation we know today.

 

 

Back on topic:

 

Galaxy in Flames & Flight of the Eisenstein Spoilers ahead

Scenes that are indispensable:

 

1) Loken adressing the loyalist Sons of Horus on Istvaan III with his awesome "we are the Luna Wolves soldiers of the emperor" -speech. this scene gave me goose bumps as i read it, the astounding confidence they drew from their loyalty....just bloody inspiring

 

2) Almost everything involving Garro and Tarvitz, but foremost the seizure and escape of the Eisenstein under Garro's command. And the assumption of general command by Tarvitz on Istvaan III

*punches the air and shouts CAPTAIN EHRLEN CAPTAIN EHRLEN*

 

 

cheers

[Hasoroth]

Just because Ultramarines look like Romans doesn't mean anything.

 

This may be so, yet the Ultramarines of all Legions/Chapters are the last to represent the US military.

Actually no chapter or even army in the 40k universe is made to represent any modern military formation we know today.

 

How so? And it doesn't need to be the US military, that example was used because I personally believe the US military is fairly emblematic of most modern western armies. If you're going to say I'm wrong say something more substantial than "Because they look like Romans" or "Because they just don't".

[Capt. Taurus]

How so? And it doesn't need to be the US military, that example was used because I personally believe the US military is fairly emblematic of most modern western armies. If you're going to say I'm wrong say something more substantial than "Because they look like Romans" or "Because they just don't".

 

You just answered yourself, as you said, the US military is emblematic of the modern military as we know it today, the prime example so to speak. That alone excludes it from being any kind of inspiration to the 40k universe, also people tend to forget that WH 40K exists since 1987 and that the space marines exist since then too, does the US military of the late 80s remind you in any way of the Adeptus Astartes chapters?

 

As far as the looks of the UMs is concerned, i would go so far as to concede that you can dismiss their appearance (which you can't), but can you also dismiss names and themes, what about them having people called "Cassius", "Cato" and "Sicarius".

 

Heck, it is as if you might as well say "well the Black Templars remind of Skythian warriors", where it is clear both from appearance and names/themes, that the BT are germanic crusaders.

 

And while we're at it how come the UMs cannot be the Persians? Those guys used to be the dominant military force/civilisation of mankind for a long period of history, as the US are now.

 

But the UMs cannot be the Persians because they don't have that theme and are not named "Sassan" "Ardashir" or "Shapour", and the UMs are not white Anglosaxon evangelicals which is basically the founding ethnicity/nation of the US, so where do you see the similarity?

 

cheers

[Jimmy Carmine]

How so? And it doesn't need to be the US military, that example was used because I personally believe the US military is fairly emblematic of most modern western armies. If you're going to say I'm wrong say something more substantial than "Because they look like Romans" or "Because they just don't".

 

You just answered yourself, as you said, the US military is emblematic of the modern military as we know it today, the prime example so to speak. That alone excludes it from being any kind of inspiration to the 40k universe, also people tend to forget that WH 40K exists since 1987 and that the space marines exist since then too, does the US military of the late 80s remind you in any way of the Adeptus Astartes chapters?

 

Yes but Rouge Trader has lots of differences in the fiction compared to 2nd Edition. It's more a draft version of the 40k universe, heck Marines couldn't even spell Kill properly in some of the artwork.

 

By 1992 when second edition came along we were post Falklands War and Operation Desert Storm and the prevailing view of Western military forces was that of a professional fighting force of skilled, highly trained soldiers. Something that can easily be imagined as an inspiration behind the substantial changes in the changes to the standard Space Marines from 1st edition Rouge Trader to 2nd edition Codex Ultramarines.

[Hasoroth]

You just answered yourself, as you said, the US military is emblematic of the modern military as we know it today, the prime example so to speak. That alone excludes it from being any kind of inspiration to the 40k universe, also people tend to forget that WH 40K exists since 1987 and that the space marines exist since then too, does the US military of the late 80s remind you in any way of the Adeptus Astartes chapters?

 

It doesn't you are correct, but Space Marines have evolved rapidly from their 1st Edition characterization as murderous thugs to knightly warriors, a change in characterization you could argue that occurred in public perception of their armed forces from the late 80s onwards.

 

As far as the looks of the UMs is concerned, i would go so far as to concede that you can dismiss their appearance (which you can't), but can you also dismiss names and themes, what about them having people called "Cassius", "Cato" and "Sicarius".

 

My real name is Caleb, I don't spend my time infiltrating Canaan and I don't know Moses. The names, iconography, etc are a thematic motif for the Ultramarines.

 

Heck, it is as if you might as well say "well the Black Templars remind of Skythian warriors", where it is clear both from appearance and names/themes, that the BT are germanic crusaders.

 

See I wouldn't say that because I don't know enough about the Scythians. I wouldn't argue that the BT look like Germanic Crusaders, I would even agree that they fight like them (if the Teutonic Knights had armor support), but they are Codex divergent.

 

And while we're at it how come the UMs cannot be the Persians? Those guys used to be the dominant military force/civilisation of mankind for a long period of history, as the US are now.

 

But the UMs cannot be the Persians because they don't have that theme and are not named "Sassan" "Ardashir" or "Shapour", and the UMs are not white Anglosaxon evangelicals which is basically the founding ethnicity/nation of the US, so where do you see the similarity?

 

Stop it, you are assuming nationalism that does not exist, I used the US military as an example because like it or not most people have had some exposure to them. And again, I realize that the Ultramarines look different but that is not what I'm arguing, I am arguing that they fight similarly. Just because you look like someone doesn't mean you fight like them. Understand?

[Capt. Taurus]

And while we're at it how come the UMs cannot be the Persians? Those guys used to be the dominant military force/civilisation of mankind for a long period of history, as the US are now.

 

But the UMs cannot be the Persians because they don't have that theme and are not named "Sassan" "Ardashir" or "Shapour", and the UMs are not white Anglosaxon evangelicals which is basically the founding ethnicity/nation of the US, so where do you see the similarity?

 

Stop it, you are assuming nationalism that does not exist, I used the US military as an example because like it or not most people have had some exposure to them. And again, I realize that the Ultramarines look different but that is not what I'm arguing, I am arguing that they fight similarly. Just because you look like someone doesn't mean you fight like them. Understand?

 

LOL... I really don't, but I aplogise if that is how it came across. Just for protocol, i have no qualms with other people's nationalism whatsoever.

 

I guess the example of the US military is so immediate to some people because it is the strongest military of the world in our times. But as I said, i don't think that the modern militaries of the world lend themselves to inspiring the 40k armies. I mean it takes more than automatic weapons to see parrallels, especially if one chapter appears to be clearly ancient Roman, another clearly mongol cavalrymen, yet another clearly appearing as viking-like nordic warriors, none of those themes is remotely akin to our 21th century militaries.

 

Not to mention the genetic enhancement, the psykers, the sheer number of energy weapons and what have you.

 

That's all I meant.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Nah be proud of your british heritage my friend, we can learn from the past, history is important

I am as proud as they come about being British but there is a time and a place for things like that mate. A 40k forum is not one of them.

 

Having thought about it a little, some more scenes from the HH that I'd love to see. The scene where Dorn is being told that Horus has betrayed the Emperor at Istvaan. The look of horror, anger, and sheer disbelief on his face and the palpable tension in the air. The midnight ceremony inducting Loken to the Mournival. The bit where you see Loken take his oath of moment (witnessed by the Remembrancers). The meeting between Horus and others on the campaign not long after that. And Istvaan itself.

Agreed they would all great scenes, especially Loken being inducted into the Mornival. :)

 

I could not agree more. I would only add the First Dual between Lucius and Loken.

[Hasoroth]

And while we're at it how come the UMs cannot be the Persians? Those guys used to be the dominant military force/civilisation of mankind for a long period of history, as the US are now.

 

But the UMs cannot be the Persians because they don't have that theme and are not named "Sassan" "Ardashir" or "Shapour", and the UMs are not white Anglosaxon evangelicals which is basically the founding ethnicity/nation of the US, so where do you see the similarity?

 

Stop it, you are assuming nationalism that does not exist, I used the US military as an example because like it or not most people have had some exposure to them. And again, I realize that the Ultramarines look different but that is not what I'm arguing, I am arguing that they fight similarly. Just because you look like someone doesn't mean you fight like them. Understand?

 

LOL... I really don't, but I aplogise if that is how it came across. Just for protocol, i have no qualms with other people's nationalism whatsoever.

 

I guess the example of the US military is so immediate to some people because it is the strongest military of the world in our times. But as I said, i don't think that the modern militaries of the world lend themselves to inspiring the 40k armies. I mean it takes more than automatic weapons to see parrallels, especially if one chapter appears to be clearly ancient Roman, another clearly mongol cavalrymen, yet another clearly appearing as viking-like nordic warriors, none of those themes is remotely akin to our 21th century militaries.

 

Not to mention the genetic enhancement, the psykers, the sheer number of energy weapons and what have you.

 

That's all I meant.

 

Ok, cool, then I'll just re-explain what I mean.

 

Modern Western military organizations share certain beliefs and can trace a lot of their idiosyncrasies back to the Ancient Romans in everything from rank organization to what is expected of a soldier both on and off the field. The French have their capitanes, the Germans have their hauptmanns, the British have their captains and the Romans had their centurions. What I am trying to prove is that there is a common theme that descends from the Romans. I do not equate the Ultramarines with the US Military because I think the US Military is the best, I equate the two because thats who the Ultramarines fight like. In essence there is no disagreement between us here, my assertion is that the modern Western armies of today fight like how the Roman Legions would in the 21st century, and the Ultramarines fight like the modern Western armies would fight in the 41st millennium, descendants of the Roman tradition.

 

You're right that there is no GI Joe chapter but there is more to being a modern soldier than a M-16 and a kevlar helmet, just like there is more to being a Space Wolf than pelts and axes, or bikes and moustaches to the White Scars, or dresses to the Dark Angels.

[Marshal Rohr]

I believe your argument is that the Ultramarines fight like a professional military, while some chapters follow doctrine more akin to knightly orders and barbarian warbands?

[Hasoroth]

Exactly like a professional military in every thing from tactics, to strategy, to ethos.

[Brannick]

The Knights of Taranis marching out from the Magma Forge at the end of Mechanicum - that was pretty darn epic and very movie-adaptive.

[Pulse]

I believe your argument is that the Ultramarines fight like a professional military, while some chapters follow doctrine more akin to knightly orders and barbarian warbands?

Much better put, although Ultramarines professional military? Wouldn't go that far, although they are the most well rounded.

[Zincite]

Lacarin dived behind the crates, a krak missile exploding where he had been standing moments before. Small flecks of metal pinged off his armour. As the Blood Angel stood back up, he fired a round into the advancing Sons of Horus, their return fire hitting his make-shift cover for the most part, or falling short. The enemy was having to move up the storehouse's metal slope, and what little fire he was throwing towards them slowed the squad down even more. Not that I'll be able to hold them off for much longer.

 

As he prepared to stand up yet again, the sound of metal boots clanking upon the floor below came to his ears. More enemies, frakking great. He flashed a glimpse over his cover, and his suspicions were confirmed. Swearing, he ducked down again. No glorious last stand for me. Maybe a glorious disembowelment...

 

Suddenly, he caught a flash of red behind him. "Brother!" He called, "Over here!" The red-armoured Space Marine changed direction towards Lacarin. Maybe we can do this after all. Blood Angels do not relent easily.

 

Throwing a Frag grenade over his shoulder, he turned back to the incoming Marine. "Wha-" he managed to get off, before the World Eater smashed a chainaxe into his face.

 

"BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" The frenzied bezerker shouted towards his traitor brethren, pointing with his weapon, "SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!"

 

Running up the slope freely now, the Traitors sprinted towards other sounds of battle. There would be yet more killing tonight.

 

(Just a random thought, but I would love a part like that.)

 

EDIT: Oops... World Eater weren't red in the Heresy were they? Oh well, pretend 'Blood angel' means 'White Scar'. Or that the World eater has blood all over him.

[Capt. Taurus]

I believe your argument is that the Ultramarines fight like a professional military, while some chapters follow doctrine more akin to knightly orders and barbarian warbands?

 

That makes sense.

 

@Hasaroth

 

I still disagree, besides if our modern militaries are modelled on the Romans (which they are not), then why even cite modern militaries as inspiration the UMs? I f they are all philosophical descendants of the Roman Legions anyway then why even mention any modern military formation as the thematic or otherwise basis for the UMs, which are clearly and beyond any shred of doubt Roman inspired.

 

Let us leave it here, we aren't giong to reach any consensus here I guess.

 

 

Topic:

 

Flight of the Eisenstein Spoiler ahead run away!!

'

'

'

 

 

I still want to see a proper scene of Nathaniel Garro wresting control over the Eisenstein from Grulgor by force.

 

 

cheers

[Walter Payton]

I believe your argument is that the Ultramarines fight like a professional military, while some chapters follow doctrine more akin to knightly orders and barbarian warbands?

Much better put, although Ultramarines professional military? Wouldn't go that far, although they are the most well rounded.

 

I'd say they are as close to a modern military as a battalion of ascetic superhuman warriors who don't usually have to worry about taking cover (on account of being the cover) can be and don't give a damn about camouflage. There's a good excerpt from Blood Reaver about an Ultramarine successor chapter (the Marines Errant, who are descended from the Eagle Warriors who are descended from the Ultramarines) in combat:

 

"To say they arrived in orderly formation would be to do them an injustice, for the warriors’ cohesion far exceeded anything seen in the Blood Reaver’s attack force. In pristine ceramite of blue and white, matching the halved heraldries of ancient Terran knights, a single squad of warriors threw themselves into cover at the far end of the corridor. Their movements were utterly economical, ruthless in their soldierly precision, taking positions in total silence but for the growl of armour and the crack of bolter stocks against shoulder guards as each of them took aim.

Their leader was unhelmed, his stern features moulded into a mask of absolute resolve. Even over the distance, Talos knew that look, and could recall when he’d worn it himself. The defiance in the warrior’s gaze made the prophet’s skin crawl. Here was a man that believed in his cause. He felt no doubt, no hesitation, no temptation to wrack his mind in the futile second-guessing of sworn duty. His life was unclouded by broken oaths, and the legacy of mistrust and confusion that drifted in the wake of every betrayal.

Talos saw all of this in the time it took the warrior to raise his chainsword – a single second spent recognising the eyes of one who lived his life according to Talos’s own long-abandoned convictions.

He heard Mercutian say, in rare Nostraman gutter-tongue, ‘Oh, shi--.’"

 

Courtesy of Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

[Pulse]

I'd say they are as close to a modern military as a battalion of ascetic superhuman warriors who don't usually have to worry about taking cover (on account of being the cover) can be and don't give a damn about camouflage. There's a good excerpt from Blood Reaver about an Ultramarine successor chapter (the Marines Errant, who are descended from the Eagle Warriors who are descended from the Ultramarines) in combat:

What i do find very annoying about you, is the way that you assume that no one else knows anything about fluff. Hopefully your not doing it on purpose.

 

"hmm Marines Errant... hmm... oh wait... one of the most well known of the Ultramarine decendants, could he mean those? *gasp*

[Walter Payton]

I'd say they are as close to a modern military as a battalion of ascetic superhuman warriors who don't usually have to worry about taking cover (on account of being the cover) can be and don't give a damn about camouflage. There's a good excerpt from Blood Reaver about an Ultramarine successor chapter (the Marines Errant, who are descended from the Eagle Warriors who are descended from the Ultramarines) in combat:

What i do find very annoying about you, is the way that you assume that no one else knows anything about fluff. Hopefully your not doing it on purpose.

 

"hmm Marines Errant... hmm... oh wait... one of the most well known of the Ultramarine decendants, could he mean those? *gasp*

 

Well, I certainly don't presume to know everything about the fluff or even the Ultramarines, and I wouldn't expect other posters to either.

 

In this instance I thought that only a passing mention in the rulebook and a brief elaboration in an overpriced Imperial Armour book few people want to buy (I know I certainly don't) might be good grounds for me to briefly summarize their genealogy. I don't assume anything, merely try to include all the relevant information in each argument or point. It's called being concise.

 

Perhaps you simply assume everyone knows the same about fluff as you seem to have the good fortune to :D