Torvak Kyre Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 you guys i see a Youtube montage coming on, ultimate showdown anyone? uhm my best bet would be Abbadon, he is supreme war-master of all Chaos forces, no one save the gods themselves is above him. hes just ultra powerful and he has lived 10,000 years, not many people can say they saw the Horus heresy and are around now, so unless the Imperium has got an uber unit up their sleeve I'm going with Abbadon The Despoiler. Highlight " he has lived 10,000 years" To the imperium he has but he has been hiding in the warp so he's probably only 300 years old. Same happened to Talos in the night lords series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2808203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 you guys i see a Youtube montage coming on, ultimate showdown anyone? uhm my best bet would be Abbadon, he is supreme war-master of all Chaos forces, no one save the gods themselves is above him. hes just ultra powerful and he has lived 10,000 years, not many people can say they saw the Horus heresy and are around now, so unless the Imperium has got an uber unit up their sleeve I'm going with Abbadon The Despoiler. Highlight " he has lived 10,000 years" To the imperium he has but he has been hiding in the warp so he's probably only 300 years old. Same happened to Talos in the night lords series. No, just... no. I think every source of canon describing him has said that he has waged war for 10,000 years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2808465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 No, just... no. I think every source of canon describing him has said that he has waged war for 10,000 years. I think he is referring to the way that time is warped in the EOT, so Fenris Kid could be right with the actual age of Abaddon, taking away the "enhanced" ablities that chaos have given him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2808702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 No, just... no. I think every source of canon describing him has said that he has waged war for 10,000 years. I think he is referring to the way that time is warped in the EOT, so Fenris Kid could be right with the actual age of Abaddon, taking away the "enhanced" ablities that chaos have given him. Actually, no, he couldn't, because it's described him in canon as fighting for ten thousand years. So, no. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2808753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mc wazzahamma Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Lord Commander Cyrius has to get the vote. After all, he was the first bloke to kill Lucius in one on one combat. And the first to be reborn as him. I think the HH authors have missed a chance to have an interesting rival for Lucius in pre and Heresy times, in the form of this character. Who maybe gets the best of Lucius on several occasions, but we realise that he's fated for one hell of an ironic twist at the end... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 No, just... no. I think every source of canon describing him has said that he has waged war for 10,000 years. I think he is referring to the way that time is warped in the EOT, so Fenris Kid could be right with the actual age of Abaddon, taking away the "enhanced" ablities that chaos have given him. Actually, no, he couldn't, because it's described him in canon as fighting for ten thousand years. So, no. It's not a literal statement. The nature of the warp means someone can spend a year in the Warp and it comes out a decade later. As far as the history books are concerned, 10 years have gone by. If it IS a literal statement then that would also mean Abaddon has been in none stop fighting without break for 10K years also, which is just silly. And it's a moot point really, because there is no doubt that over his time fighting the Imperium he has been increased in power through Chaos Gifts and a super Daeomon Sword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 No, just... no. I think every source of canon describing him has said that he has waged war for 10,000 years. I think he is referring to the way that time is warped in the EOT, so Fenris Kid could be right with the actual age of Abaddon, taking away the "enhanced" ablities that chaos have given him. Actually, no, he couldn't, because it's described him in canon as fighting for ten thousand years. So, no. It's not a literal statement. The nature of the warp means someone can spend a year in the Warp and it comes out a decade later. As far as the history books are concerned, 10 years have gone by. If it IS a literal statement then that would also mean Abaddon has been in none stop fighting without break for 10K years also, which is just silly. The warp also works the other way though. It could be 10 000 in the outside galaxy but it may have been 20 000 years on the inside of the Ocularis Terribus. It just depends on the fickleness of the warp. Not that I agree with this, just playing devil's advocate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Sigismund. Its sad but true. This is how I went through it in my head. ADB characters are flawed on purpose.. Most of them will die, which means they ain't the best. (Sevatar, Tal etc) Abaddon was almost rolled by Loken while holding all advantages. No Khârn has too many near death experiences. No. Lucius, Loken punched him in the face. No. Loken, fails to win despite disadvantage, so he has lost. No. While Sigismund, has never lost. His job is to kill anyone who thinks they are top shelf and he succeeds all the time. Malcharion kills three champions.. the dude was just lucky he didn't meet sigismund. Like I said sad but true. Of course I am going by what has been written. Sigismund hasn't had a novel about him, everything you here about him, shows him as the best bet. EDIT: Whats more is Sigismund isn't infused with the power of chaos, something that should (but doesn't) make you stronger. Meaning all the worshipers of chaos are even worse. However if Draigo went back in time he would rofl stomp Sigismund. He would punch Sigismund so hard he would convert to chaos and back again and then explode. Because if we go by what is written Draigo is second only to the emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I agree. The greatest PreHeresy character is Draigo. Because he can walk through the Warp into history. Thanks Mat Ward! :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 ADB characters are flawed on purpose.. Most of them will die, which means they ain't the best. (Sevatar, Tal etc) Not dieing is not a very good measure of besthood. You can still die while being the very best. Look at Rogal Dorn. He died by being outnumbered by vastly inferior(in quality) marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 ADB characters are flawed on purpose.. Most of them will die, which means they ain't the best. (Sevatar, Tal etc) Not dieing is not a very good measure of besthood. You can still die while being the very best. Look at Rogal Dorn. He died by being outnumbered by vastly inferior(in quality) marines. Dorn isn't the best. His death shames him. IMO naturally. Sangy had a good death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 How did Dorn have a bad death? He was the last Primarch to die, and chose that moment to go. Like Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino. Total badass. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 OT: Since Dorn was the last Primarch to go, and since a lot of the loyalist Primarchs had died in the Heresy or had simply disappeared, I bet he would have visited Ultramar to see the fallen Guilliman at some point. A chance to see the last of his brothers, frozen in the moment of his death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Well his death was manipulated by Ulthwé.. And it stopped a black crusade, which well are always stopped. Loyalist players love to remind me. So is it the sacrifice then? That's the good bit? See years ago I made a thread about how the primarch's weren't that great. I said how they weren't that powerful really. It went for like 8 pages with everyone telling me I'm wrong so when a Primarch dies to 1000's of chaos marines, I laugh. Cause either Primarch's aren't that great or Dorn wasn't.. But yeah OT.. Sigismund. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 OT: Since Dorn was the last Primarch to go, and since a lot of the loyalist Primarchs had died in the Heresy or had simply disappeared, I bet he would have visited Ultramar to see the fallen Guilliman at some point. A chance to see the last of his brothers, frozen in the moment of his death. Could you imagine that? Standing over your eternally dying brother frozen in his last moments of life... being the last of your brothers... utterly alone...all of the "failure" and the responsibility to rebuild it all resting on your shoulders alone... It almost makes you wonder, deep down inside, if Dorn wanted to die as quickly as possible. As immovable as he was, the burdens weighed too heavily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Actually, no, he couldn't, because it's described him in canon as fighting for ten thousand years. So, no. Abaddon wouldn't be fighting constantly outside the EOT. So, yes its possible. That aside its only the powers of Chaos that allow him to live that long. How did Dorn have a bad death? He was the last Primarch to die, and chose that moment to go. Like Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino. Total badass. I wouldn't say badass to be honest, he chose his own time to die i agree, but it had more to due to the fact you stated, he was the last Primarch. The pressure of that alone would probably have been enormous even for a Primarch and probably would have driven him to his death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broker Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 OT: Since Dorn was the last Primarch to go, and since a lot of the loyalist Primarchs had died in the Heresy or had simply disappeared, I bet he would have visited Ultramar to see the fallen Guilliman at some point. A chance to see the last of his brothers, frozen in the moment of his death. Could you imagine that? Standing over your eternally dying brother frozen in his last moments of life... being the last of your brothers... utterly alone...all of the "failure" and the responsibility to rebuild it all resting on your shoulders alone... It almost makes you wonder, deep down inside, if Dorn wanted to die as quickly as possible. As immovable as he was, the burdens weighed too heavily. It would be in character for Dorn to go on a suicide charge with the aim to die. Dorn's a primarch who would feel survivor's guilt alright. The Iron Cage proved that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Could you imagine that? Standing over your eternally dying brother frozen in his last moments of life... being the last of your brothers... utterly alone...all of the "failure" and the responsibility to rebuild it all resting on your shoulders alone... It almost makes you wonder, deep down inside, if Dorn wanted to die as quickly as possible. As immovable as he was, the burdens weighed too heavily. What adds to the gravity of the situation is that Dorn could well have died early during the Scouring, in the Iron Cage battle, had not Guilliman intervened for not wanting Dorn to die on that world. And so Dorn would outlive Guilliman, being around longer than any other Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I love Dorn (as my name suggests) but even I feel he is too heavly flawed, like an extremist religous person who hurts himself for he feels he has failed in some way, battle, loyalty or even a nasty thought. He like all primarchs was a great being but he focused to much on his own mistakes rarther than correcting them. If anything h was guilty of the sin of pride (not like the EC's though.) It seems only fitting he dies in some generic situation after he 'failed' to protect the emperor and destroy pertuabo, he just became an empty shell of a primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 He like all primarchs was a great being but he focused to much on his own mistakes rarther than correcting them. I couldn't agree more! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Excedis Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 My vote is tied. I definitly have to vote for Sigismund....I mean 14 chaos champions at the time of hteir most strongest.....thats just insane honestly. Plus he was named the Emperor's champion by the emperor. However my tied vote also goes to azkaellon. He was Sangy's personal herald after all and left behind to continue the legion properly. You cannot be a slouch if you were chosen by your father to continue his legacy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Plus he was named the Emperor's champion by the emperor. He was chosen by Dorn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Excedis Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I thought the emperor chose him as well? Cause didn't each legion pick one for it? Now I may be terribly wrong here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I don't remember anything like that. The old story about Sigismund's first battle as Emperor's Champion describes how proud he was that Dorn had picked him. And the whole "Emperor's Champion" tradition is an honour thing, challenging the enemy champions to 1on1 duels. Exactly the kind of thing the Imperial Fists would like, but not really something the Emperor would necessarily care about. I mean, he will certainly be delighted that the Imperial Fists are constantly trying to prove their devotion, but it is not exactly something he would request from his Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 No, just... no. I think every source of canon describing him has said that he has waged war for 10,000 years. I think he is referring to the way that time is warped in the EOT, so Fenris Kid could be right with the actual age of Abaddon, taking away the "enhanced" ablities that chaos have given him. Actually, no, he couldn't, because it's described him in canon as fighting for ten thousand years. So, no. It's not a literal statement. The nature of the warp means someone can spend a year in the Warp and it comes out a decade later. As far as the history books are concerned, 10 years have gone by. If it IS a literal statement then that would also mean Abaddon has been in none stop fighting without break for 10K years also, which is just silly. The warp also works the other way though. It could be 10 000 in the outside galaxy but it may have been 20 000 years on the inside of the Ocularis Terribus. It just depends on the fickleness of the warp. Not that I agree with this, just playing devil's advocate. Idaho, I mean no offence but you seem to see this as a loyalist, which isn't typical for you. Your first point was countered by Sigismund (who I agree with both in the fact and in doubt that it was double the time or that the time was grossly extended). Your second point was wrong, simply by the mindset that was applied. Of course he's been fighting non-stop. Maybe not in personal combat, but he's either been directing a battle or planning for the next one since he got in the Eye (which is counts as fighting the war, which is what I think the intentions were). What else does Abbaddon have to do? Lounge with daemonettes? I don't think so. In a way, he's like Bjorn - consumed by what his father has done and he feels he must fight to prove himself. Also, I think the time he's spent in and out of the Eye has gone both yours and Sigismund's way for Abbaddon at times, and should roughly balance out to ten thousand years. He has to have had time to organise and fight the Black Crusades, after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232098-best-marine-from-a-legion/page/8/#findComment-2809629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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