The Neurode Crusade - Updates and Fixes to HQs and Elites

[Brother Christopher]

Just another update saying that I'm still handing around. Admittedly, my interest in the hobby is at its lowest point ever. I don't even know why that is since from what I gathered, there has been a lot of good things going for the Space Marines recently.  Then there's the problem with Primaris line which I continue to see as an existential threat to my collection. This in turn must fuel my pessimism: if good things happen and even they can't spark my interest, what can? Iron resolve and Templar relentlessness. That's why I'm still not selling or burning my collection (though, the bikes are something that I'd probably like to get rid of) and that's why I'm slowly painting stuff; unfortunately, I don't have anything concrete to share (yet) since I doubt that primed or half-painted heavy weapons marines are interesting.

 

I'm also pumping myself to try to get a game or two in the next couple of months. What stands in my way is a kind of mental paralysis: I don't know how to write a list now with all the codex, supplements, books, stratagems and other potential stuff I'm not aware of (do I need objective cards to play the game?) to choose from.

 

The threads that have been popping here around the time of release of Psychic Awakening left me particularly bewildered. I felt old and inadequate reading about the combos that we can do using combinations of rules I'm completely unfamiliar with, combining traits, Chaplain's litanies and stratagems - that's a totally different level of complexity that I'm used to when it comes to 40K. Hopefully, I won't need all of that to enjoy my game, whenever that may be.

[Hymnblade]

Definitely get a game in! Take a list you've enjoyed in the past, build it in Battlescribe, then tweak until the point value comes out right. You don't have to use fancy combos of strange mechanics.

 

You only need a Tactical Objectives deck if you want to play a Maelstrom of War mission. I mean, you don't actually need a deck even for that, but it's more convenient than flipping back and forth through the table in the rulebook. If you decide to pick up a pack of Adeptus Astartes datacards (which includes a Tactical Objectives deck, but also cards for stratagems), you could look through the stratagems, pick out maybe 3 or 5 that sound cool, and just keep those in front of you while you play, then only worry about using those ones. A post-it could serve the same purpose too.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think, right now is a pretty good time to try and get back into things. You don't need to be too overwhelmed by the books, you only need two. The new codex and Faith and Fury. (There's about four pages in one other book you could use, but you don't really need to bother right now, if you want them, drop me a PM and I can send you a scan to save money)

 

So just two books.

 

Cards are optional, but slightly easier to use for stratagems and tactical objectives. There are specific black Templar objectives in Faith and Fury, but those don't have cards, so I photocopied the page, cut them out and glued them to my cards.

 

The new rules actually made all marines better, even old ones. I use my classic vanguard sword brethren most games. Drop pods are also back with a vengeance, load them up with choppy crusaders, Devastators and characters and have fun. (I personally really like having a 9 man squad of Grav devs in a pod with an ancient. I have four Grav guns, a Sgt with Signum, the ugly baby and four bolter marines for ablative wounds.) All classic marines, all fun to play again.

[Brother Christopher]

Thanks for the guidelines! You make it sound way easier than I make it out to be. I'm convincing myself to just give it a go - field some of the stuff I've painted over the last year and that I've been proud of and give it a go. Right now, it's just a matter of finding time window which is compatible with a free time window of another human being. Who'd have thought that working as a freelancer can be so limiting?

 

With regard to painting, I've managed to start a streak - today is the fourth day in a row that I've managed to find a couple of minutes to paint my miniatures. Progress is slow, but noticeable and oddly satisfying ;) If I keept this pace up, I'd have finished all my 40K projects within a year. It's as much of an exciting prospect, as it's impossible to achieve. Still, after a couple of months of stagnation in the hobby, it's a refreshing experience to see some progress.

[Brother Carpenter]

I hear you.

Atm I'm working weeks of 45-50 hours and I'm not even self employed (freelancer).

On top of that I'm followinga course for safety professional in the evening hours.

 

The last 5 months I've managed to paint one SB to a somewhat pre highlighting stage...

 

But to lose hope and to despair is to abandon the emperor and his divine light!

 

When I'm graduated I'll start paiting again (hopefully ETL 2020).

Edited February 9, 2020 by Brother Carpenter

[Brother Christopher]

Hello Brethren!

 

I bring most unexpected news. If you follow my crusade thread and recall my usual posts, then you probably know that they are either updates that I'm still visiting the forum, declarations that I'm still in the hobby and haven't sold or burnt my stuff or updates, with or without pictures, of the progress I've made with painting my units. This time is different - I've played an actual game. A friendly/introductory 1500 points game against some orks. My opponent was a great sport and I feel bad for him since he was so thoughtful not to bring a powerful list that if the game continued into turn 3, he'd probably get tabled. Still, we've both had a good time and there were some memorable moments, both silly and epic in nature. I will post some photos from that game.

 

Regarding my impressions of 40K - this game either is pretty complex (lots of moving parts: stratagems, traits, rules in various books, relics, combos) and finicky (especially unit placement in melee combat) or I'm getting too old to play games. 8th edition was supposed to be streamlined, right? I haven't been so mentally exhausted while playing a game (including complex boardgames) for a very long time. I imagine that's down to practice, though. But all in all, despite the effort, I thoroughly enjoyed myself.

 

Now, with the rekindled zeal I need to prepare a new army list for an upcoming game against Imperial Guard. For my game against Orks, I played as the Imperial Fists' because I didn't have access to BT rules. However, on numerous occasions I wanted to get into melee and felt that your rules would be nicer to have - I now begin to understand how important a charge re-roll and a +1 to charge distance can be.

 

Could you help me with preparing a roster against IG? I only know that my opponent is going to field a lot of infantry (60-80 models) and some tanks. We're going to play a 1500-1600 points match. Any unit recommendations that I should take which are not Primaris? Is it reasonable to try to get into melee as soon as possible? I'm thinking about using terminators, Vanguard vets and a drop pod to get relatively quickly into his lines. And - most importantly - how stupid is it to field a Storm Raven in a 1500 list against IG? I'm worried that it's too large of an investment which will go down very quickly. However, on the other hand I really want to see it on the tabletop. Even if just for a moment.

[Marshal Vespasian]

Against IG vanguard vets with chainswords and pistols should be pretty good.

Put them with a marhal who is a frontline commander for 8'' charge and has the crusaders helm to out them into assault doctrine for -1ap on melee and pusts and slingshot through his lines with devout push.

 

You could droppod in some crusaders woth cahracter support. Terminators will benefit from fro tline commander as well.

You should take a chaplain definitely.

 

A storm raven will eat a ton of fire in a friendly game. It will also mince guard infantry with its hurricane bolter system and can take a few hp off tanks. Dont put things in it that are too valuable though.

[Hymnblade]

Regarding my impressions of 40K - this game either is pretty complex (lots of moving parts: stratagems, traits, rules in various books, relics, combos) and finicky (especially unit placement in melee combat) or I'm getting too old to play games. 8th edition was supposed to be streamlined, right? I haven't been so mentally exhausted while playing a game (including complex boardgames) for a very long time. I imagine that's down to practice, though. But all in all, despite the effort, I thoroughly enjoyed myself.

It is a pretty complex game! I've often felt drained after a game of 40k, even when I had a lot of fun - I mean, you're standing up and paying attention for multiple hours straight. It's extra taxing when still getting familiar with the game, especially since that makes games take longer to boot.

 

With vehicles against shooting armies like IG, I think there's a bit of a "go big or go home" effect - you either have to take several vehicles and force him to choose, or take none at all. If you have just the Stormraven and maybe one other vehicle, he's going to shoot it down first turn. If you present him with several targets, then something will get shot, but the others have a better chance of surviving to achieve things. Using the Litany of Divine Protection on it would also help.

 

Trying to get into CC fast seems like a pretty good way to win against IG, just remember to have some units who don't mind sitting on an objective so you can score points!

[Brother Carpenter]

I feel good for you that you finally had a positive experince. I haven't played in ages myself 10 years ago I played my last game I believe

[Brother Christopher]

Thanks for the feedback! I’m pretty cautious when it comes to the Raven, but I actually might try and field it. I’m pretty sure that when I’ll have an opportunity to play a larger game, I want to field a Storm Raven and Land Raider to force the opponent to choose his/her targets; that way, I’m hopeful that at least one of the models will survive.

I’ve also tried to compile a list without the Raven. It’s still in a very early stage since I haven’t yet had a chance to take a mode in-depth look at the special rules which make our charges more reliable, but the list seems pretty fun (and allows me to field my painted stuff, too!).

Captain/Marshal
Grimaldus or regular Chaplain
Emperor’s Champion
10x Jump Pack Vanguards/Sword Brethren
5x Terminators
6x Assault Terminators (3x LC, 2x TH+SS)
Company Vets (with some special weapons, preferably meltas for AT)
3 squads of minimum troops
2 squads of Devastators for long-range AT fire support (lasannons and missile launchers)
Drop pod

 

I’d hope to deep strike the Terminators, “Vanguards” and drop pod with characters somewhere near the enemy’s line to take advantage of the Marshal’s +1 to charge and get as many units possible into combat.

 

By the way, how many units do I need to deploy? Is it legal to have the entire army in reserve on the first turn and then deploy them via scout moves and deep strikes?

 

I feel good for you that you finally had a positive experince. I haven't played in ages myself 10 years ago I played my last game I believe .
But with all these new paints an scoring 200 metal bt shoulder pads I'm ready to start rolling again (somewhere next year hopefully)

 

Good luck with that! I hear the new paints (Contrast, I believe) are good for getting you army up to a good standard quickly. Unfortunately, GW introduced them a bit too late for me. I don't want to change my painting methods to have a consistent style throughout the army.

 

Still, brother - if you have some painted models and some free time, I recommend trying the game out.

[Hymnblade]

In matched play, you must have more units and more points start on the table than in reserve. Scouts are on the table though, and Drop Pods are exempt, so it looks like you have 3 units in reserve (VVets and 2 termie squads) and 5 deployed. The point values might not shake out though.

[Brother Christopher]

Thanks Hymnblade! I must've missed that info in the rulebook; now this changes my plans a bit but now I know what to plan around. The rules, in general, seem a bit scattered and counter-intuitive or outright confusing to people new to the game. It seems like a chalange to make sense of the current state of the game, including updates and FAQs and what-not.

 

As promised in the previous posts, here are some photos; proof that I haven't been completely idle with painting and proof that I did play the game ;)

 

Firstly, a group shot of my WIP Marines - mostly Devastators:

 

 

Now, for the game:

 

On the right flank, the Black Templars set up defensive positions in a ruin. Long-range fire support, including a Thunderfire Cannon and a Sicaran Battle tank must be defended to provide the required firepower to stop the incoming Speed Freeks' assault.

 

 

In the centre, the Black Templars advance - a squad of Jump Pack Sword Brethren move towards a ruin, followed by a Venerable Dreadnought and Contemptor Dreadnought, while Neophytes bravely deploy in an attempt to prevent the Orks easy access to the defensive positions in the backfield, on the right flank.

 

 

The bulk of the Ork forces:

 

 

The Orks push down the middle:

 

 

... and deepstrike using witchcraft behind the Black Templars' lines; however, the squad of heavily-armoured Nobz is shaken by an earlier successful volley from the Thunderfire cannon and is unable to make a successful backstabing charge.

 

 

A Squad of Black Templar Terminators, supported by heavy weapons from the backfield, manages destroy an Ork Battlewagon with bolter shots. The situation in the centre of the field becomes tense - there the outcome of the battle will be decided. The Ork forces already in the centre - consisting of some buggies, a fearsome Warboss and a Mek - are joint by a mob of Nobz with Big Choppas. The Black Templars have to respond with deadly force - a Castellan orders two Dreadnoughts to charge the Orks;

 

 

With the buggies and Warboss dealt with, the Black Templars are left exposed in the middle. Once again, using psychic powers the Orks show signs of intelligence and attempt to encircle the Emperor's Finest.

 

 

The Orks manage to fell the Contemptor Dreadnought with their brute explosives and feral force of muscle; the brawl in the centre of the field continues...

 

 

and the sole survivor from the Sword Brethren squad poises himself to charge and avenge his fallen companions.

 

[Brother Christopher]

I've come up with a list but I'm afraid it won't work at all. Still, it seems that I'll actually give it a go see how flyers and transports work (against Imperial Guard). My biggest problem at the moment is that I have concerns about durability of units, especially vehicles in the game. To address the problem, I figured that I have to experiment without fear or hesitation to get a practical understanding of how tough or vulnerable units are and how good or bad combat is. Also, I want to play using my painted models which will not see the table top otherwise.

 

Here's the new idea based around flyers and old school 'dudes in rhinos':

 

HQ:

- Captain

- Chaplain

 

Elites:

- 8x Sword Brethren, pistols and chainswords

- 8x Sword Brethren, pistols and chainswords

- 2-3x Company Veterans (maybe with meltaguns)

 

Troops:

- 5x Neophytes

- 5x Neophytes

- 5-6x Tacticals with AT weapons (I'm thinking about melta)

 

Flyers:

- 1x Storm Raven, Lascannons + Hv. Bolters

- 2x Stormtalons, TLAC + Typhoon Missile Launchers

 

Transpors:

- 2x Rhino

- 1x Drop Pod

 

This leaves me with around 80 points for wargear or additional bodies.

 

The idea is to spread my points pretty equally across the board and hope that some units will remain in full battle capacity.

 

> Tacticals, Company Veterans and a HQ are drop-podded and attempt destroy a key target (whatever it may be) and survive; if the Emperor allows it, they charge in to tie the enemy in combat;

> Sword Brethren drive up the field in Rhinos; I hope that at least one Rhino will survive and the passengers will get into combat in T2;

> Flyers roam around and do damage;

> Scouts are deployed to hold objectives or distract the opponent.

 

Or does the list look completely useless and incapable of doing anything?

[Majkhel]

Good tidings on your return to playing, brother!

As for the vehicles - every army now has ways of destroying any vehicle in a round of shooting. It is good, that you take multiple of them. 
For melee-oriented armies, it is crucial to tie units down and then grind them. Are you familiar with the concept of tri-locking models, so the unit can't fall back from fight?
Also always charge your rhinos first, so they can soak up overwatch.

 

I'm not entirely sure what your plan is for the Stormraven - it's the only vehicle in your list with serious anti-tank capability on turn 1, so it will get immediate attention. And Astra Militarum's tanks will be able to bring it down in one turn unless distracted by other targets. Why would you not take hurricane bolters on it? They will massacre the guards' screening infantry.

EDIT: Also, consider Stormhawks instead of Stormtalons - they are significantly tougher (T7 and re-roll of a failed save rolls of 1) and cheaper. Granted, they do not negate the -1 to hit for firing Heavy weapons after moving against targets without FLY, but you can use the Big Guns Never Tire stratagem on one of them. And for 13pts more you get a tougher platform with Las-talon (better AT than missile launcher), HBs and TLAC.

While using Flyers, keep in mind that you can block opponents' movement and charges of ground units with their bases.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Majkhel

[Brother Christopher]

Thank you for the feedback. It's given me a lot to think about. The tip about using flyers' bases to block enemy movement is something new to me; this could be particularly handy in facing melee oriented armies.

 

I am familiar with the concept of tri-locking and I'd hope to use Rhinos to draw overwatch fire; I'm still struggling a bit with proper positioning of models - the ideas and strategies are there in my head, but I need way more practice.

 

The Stormraven is there just because... I'd like to see it on the table. It's a silly reason, but I've made a scratch-built Raven some time ago that I'm proud of and haven't had the opportunity to use it . However, I see your point and deep down I know that it's basically a handicap in a 1500 points game. The ~300 points for the Raven can be spent elsewhere, to field more bodies, including Terminators.

 

As for Stormhawks - I'd love to use them, but I regrettably bought a pair of Stormtalons back in the time when Stormhawks weren't a thing and I've been regretting this ever since the models were released. And the rules in 8th edition don't help - I honestly cannot understand how come Stormhawks are cheaper to field than Stormtalons!! The +1 to hit ground targets isn't worth it over the overwhelmingly superior firepower and better survivability.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Brother Cristopher

[Majkhel]

You can always proxy them ;)

If you want to take Talons, I would give them lascanons, or at least to one of them. I know they are not cheap, but they will provide easier targets for your opponent than the Raven and thus help it survive. If you go first, you should be able to chuck out some shots from them. To that end, I would also start you Captain on the board, to provide the Flyers with a re-roll aura. If you position your scouts forward, the Captain can essentially start as close to the enemy as possible, advance, than the Flyers close in to his position to take advantage of his re-rolls. Just a thought.

 

As for the Stormraven - by all means take it. Just decide what you want from it, and then go all in with it.
Check this thread about SR in the Blood Angles forum. Pretty recent and also with some love for the Raven in mind from another melee-oriented chapter :)

[Medjugorje]

do you tried the Aurelian shroud at any time? And a Chaplain with divine protection? It is clearly VERY strong against strong shooty armies - but also strong if well placed when an enemy charges you with multiple units.

[Brother Christopher]

Nah, I haven't - I'll look into those things that you've mentioned. Because of the pandemic, my recommencement of gaming is suspended; I just manage to play the one game against Orks. But I'm quite optimistic about 40k at the moment. If professional life allows it, I'm planning to paint some of my stuff up. It's just still a pity that most of the things I chose to buy and paint over the last 2-3 years are somewhat unviable/underwhelming (especially Stormtalons and Bikes).

[Marshal Vespasian]

I actually would look at Bikes with more optimism. They have two bolters each, which is good these days. t5 and you can put 3 plasma guns into a squad of 5. so turn 2 thats 20 bolter shots at ap -1. plus 3 or 6 plasma shots and you can still put some chainswords in there to have some more attacks in melee.

 

Sure not game breaking but not a hopeless cause. At least in a non competetive environment.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Marshal Vespasian

[Medjugorje]

 

Sure not game breaking but not a hopeless cause. At least in a non competetive environment.

 

 

Biker with 5+++ and in one turn a 4++ could be a thing. You could play a big squad of scout biker too - they have more output. (And the Scout Stratagem works for them as well).

[Brother Christopher]

Thanks for -- what I consider -- positive feedback. I really want to give bikes a try, especially that the models grew on me. The problem is my mindset; even though, I'm not planning to be a competetive player, I tend to go for more optimal solutions. And bikes seem suboptimal and don't seem too appealing when compared to another option.

 

With the provision that I don't know yet how the game works because of my limited experience and base my opinions on my subjective understanding of the game's mechanics. As such, with the current edition being very brutal, firepower (especially weight of dice) seems to be the most important "stat". I hope that I'm not entirely right here, though.

 

However, considering the above, Inceptors just seem a better choice point-for-point than a Bikes in the slot for a fast-moving unit. Bikes have the benefit of the 4+ inv strat and have amazing range with the guaranteed 6" of advance movement, but lack the offensive out of Inceptors with their OP not-heavy-bolters. I didn't do the math, but it seems that the not-heavy-bolters (Assault Bolters?) will do more damage than a Bike Squad with plasmas for less points. And point-for-point Inceptors appear to have more staying power, too; with their OP 3W per model (it still bothers me that Gravis got the +1W). Not to mention that Bikes lack the Fly keyword, rendering them useless when tied in melee.

 

Still, I'm thinking about a list with 2 squads of 3-5 bikes to roam around the board, securing objectives and harassing infantry. Can't wait to try them out. Hopefully, they'll work decently well and I'll find more zeal to paint them. Also, a Bike Captain Marshall with the awesome mobility and +1T and +1W seems like a very appealing HQ choice.

 

As for Bike Scouts, I don't have any models ;)

[Brother Christopher]

I'm planning to work on some characters - jump pack marshal/castellan and a marshal on bike. Because of this, I've got a silly question. What do you think about tabards and capes on models with a jump pack and on a bike? I think that these things are pretty cool and fitting for characters and heroes. But there's that constant thing in the back of my mind saying that pieces of garment flopping around mid-air, covering your face, becoming scorched with exhaust gases or getting tangled up in a bike's wheel aren't... practical so to speak. What would you recommend? Go practical and do plain models, or go all Medieval and follow the rule of Gothic cool?

Edited March 26, 2020 by Brother Cristopher

[Majkhel]

Rule of cool all the way! 

Although I must admit, that I would never do a Jump Pack character with a cape......

[Brother Christopher]

Thanks for that! You're probably right! After all, 40K should be quite ridiculous. After all, Blood Angels have standard bearers who use jump packs - a thing which, to my mind, appears quite silly (I don't know why, though, considering the setting). So a tabard on a biker doesn't have to be silly.

 

On the topic of capes for infantry with jump packs, I suppose, I must concur. The thing is that I apparently need some external affirmation that the idea is not completely ridiculous.

 

The new JP characters that I'm planning to make are not an issue. They will be based on OOP Metal Veterans - I have two incomplete models with loincloths and despite that I hate working on metal miniatures, I kinda feel feel that the weight of the model translates nicely to the importance of the rank of the imaginary officer it represents. And there are official models with loincloth accessories in kits with jump packs, so that's legitimate.

 

The thing I need someone to tell me makes sense is my "main Marshal", who is modelled with the standard plastic cape from the multi-part plastic captain kit. I like this conversion a lot so I thought that I'd like to use him when I play, after life recommences after the epidemic. And since jump pack characters are now a thing, I figured that I can add a swappable jump pack and use him a a smash/sword captain.

 

The cloak and the pose of the model yields itself to a jump pack quite nicely, too.

 

As for the material getting scorched or burnt, there used to be in Codex: Black Templars a thing called "Adamantine Mantle", which I recall and gather should be - well - a cloak or cape made from adamantine - a pretty solid material, so it should be strong enough to deal with the exhaust gases from the jump pack. Right?

[ThirtySixNights]

I'm not sure that capes look so great with jump packs, if you wanna do it though. Power to you.