Betrayer

[Epistolary Exander]

I don't have access to my books at the moment, but IIRC, Prospero had neither orbital defenses nor surface to orbit weaponry. They didn't even have void shields protecting their cities. So when the defense fleet was scattered, the only protection Prospero had was the KSons and the Spire Guard. The Titan the KSons had was supposed to be nonoperational except that one of KSons had it repaired. So to be honest, the only fight the Wolves were supposed to expect were the Spire Guard, the KSons themselves and the Prospero Defense Fleet. Meanwhile you have a full battlefleet belonging to the Wolves, the Wolves themselves, the Sisters of Silence and the Custodians(with the last two having unknown, but considerable, numbers to my knowledge) attacking. Starting out with an orbital bombardment on Tizca itself that was deflected by the KSons. They didn't consider the KSons warriors, only witches. They probably weren't expecting as big of a fight as they got.

 

Of course, this is all speculation. As all the above is.

 

Page 472 of ATS states Prospero had orbital defences, while page 481 states Tizca had no air defence systems. It is suggested the Raptora Kine Shield of Tizca was more powerful than any amount of armour/ void shields that protect other cities. From what I am aware Tizca was the only city on Prospero as all the other cities were destroyed by the psychneuein prior to the arrival of Magnus on the planet. The lack of conventional defences of Tizca was due to the KSons confidence in their own abilities in that they would be able to more than sufficiently deal with anything that could be thrown at them, they never expected to be blind to an attack

 

There appears to be a case that the KSons "maleficarum" capabilities were underestimated by the Imperium otherwise there would have been a lot more sisters of silence present with the SW, instead of the Ksons being considered witches only instead of warriors afterall they are still Space Marines.

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, weird that there was no mention of a space battle as orbital defenses are kind of hard to move. Prime example is the Ramilles Star Fort needing an armada of tugboats to go from place to place. And that's with the star fort having warp engines. I think the Phalanx is the only star fort that is truly capable of moving under its own power.

 

And actually, I'm pretty sure the Rune Priests were meant to counter the psychic powers of the KSons themselves. Whether or not that means the SoS and/or the Custodians were aware of the Rune Priests existence or nature is still unknown. Just putting that out there.

 

And yes, I was aware of them relying on the kine shield. My point was that the Wolves may or may not have known about it so they may or may not have been expecting it. I'm basically outlining a "The Wolves underestimated the Sons and the Sons were blind-sided" scenario.

[DarthMarko]

At the end, in truth, without Magnus's actions, the battle would have finished with a decisive TS victory.

Lol - in the best scenario two legions would maul each other, but Horus also knew SW would done the job...so no....

[Kol Saresk]

At the end, in truth, without Magnus's actions, the battle would have finished with a decisive TS victory.

Lol - in the best scenario two legions would maul each other, but Horus also knew SW would done the job...so no....

To be fair, we can't know that. If Magnus was involved from the beginning, it might have been a TS victory, whether it be decisive or otherwise. It might have been a Pyrrhic Victory for the Wolves with the KSons being wiped out or falling back to the Eye with the Wolves just losing the majority of their Legion. Or it might have turned out the way it did. There are simply too many different ways it could have gone to say how it would have gone if just one thing changed. The thing about Schrodinger's Box is you could find a live cat, a dead cat, a dog, a bird, a Leviathan(whatever the frik that is supposed to be) or even a T-Rex. Or it could be empty.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

if Magnus had a hand in the organized defences of Prospero, I doubt the Wolves as a Legion would have survived. regardless of the state of the T-Sons, the WOlves would have taken unbearable losses.

 

my 2 cents

 

WLK

[Epistolary Exander]

The SW being reduced from 10s of thousands of marines down to a few thousand marines after the Battle of Tizca with Russ apparently with drawing to Fenris for unknown amount of years in the Heresy. Dozens/ hundreds of Custodes also killed in the battle, Magnus along with 1000 powerful librarians escaping. It would appear the Battle of Tizca was a pyrrhic victory for the Imperium.

 

I do not believe it was Horus in manipulating Hauser in PB, I believe it was a daemon working on hehalf of the Chaos Gods. Especially with the power of name ability and how it changed its form when it attacked the SW on Prospero.

 

Agreed we will never know how the battle would have went if Magnus had faught with his legion and did not impeed Tizca's defences, it is just how well the KSons did at times in the battle suggests they would have done won the battle if Magnus fully committed himself to the battle.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

the only thing I find really confusing is that the Wolves had to have enough numbers to lead (along with the Ultramarines) the Scouring, according to the new rule book.

 

WLK

[Epistolary Exander]

the only thing I find really confusing is that the Wolves had to have enough numbers to lead (along with the Ultramarines) the Scouring, according to the new rule book.

 

WLK

 

Maybe because it was Russ and not the Lion who sat on the fence during the Heresy :P.

[DarkGuard]

Back on topic chaps, if you want to discuss the battle of Prospero do so in a different thread.

 

Now lets get back to talking about Betrayer.

[Hereticus81]

Well I've just finished Betrayer and all I can say is wow. what a book. I hope Angel Exterminatus measures up!

[Lepaca]

Well I've just finished Betrayer and all I can say is wow. what a book. I hope Angel Exterminatus measures up!

 

Sorry, it sure doesn't.

[Hereticus81]

Well I've just finished Betrayer and all I can say is wow. what a book. I hope Angel Exterminatus measures up!

Sorry, it sure doesn't.

I expected as much but I should be used to it by now. whenever I read ADBs work it always seems a step down when I move to the next book.

Cheers for the heads up though :-)

on topic - there were so many bits i loved in this book, time for spoilers -

hmmm i can't find the spoiler option on the control board thingy. Could some kind soul help this benighted tech-noob and tell me the tags I need? I really don't want to spoil this wonderful book for anyone. [edit Kol_Saresk told me how to do it, may the emperor have mercy on his soul ]

The conversations between Lorgar, Angron and later Guilimann were very illuminating, I was actually sympathetic towards Angron towards the end so well done ADB, I never thought I'd sympathise with the Red Angel! Erebus is still a grade a tw*t though, when he went for Argel-Tal I wanted to stop him there and then!

I had a good chuckle at Lorgar dismissing a future where the Emperor was worshipped as a good as inconceivable. I adore little bits like that.

I can't wait to see what happened to cyrene and the appearance of a member of The cabal was a move I wasn't expecting.

I think my fiance got very sick of hearing me say "damn i love you ADB" every few minutes while reading Betrayer

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm does typing in the tags manually still work? Just type in

where the spoilers start and then the same thing with a / between the [ and the s.

[Hereticus81]

Hmm does typing in the tags manually still work? Just type in

where the spoilers start and then the same thing with a / between the [ and the s.

 

that; works. cheers Kol, rather than spam posts I'm going to edit my earlier one. you're a scholar and a gent good sir :-)

[Kol Saresk]

No problem. Oh wow, they have really changed how the spoiler tags work.

[DarthMarko]

The SW being reduced from 10s of thousands of marines down to a few thousand marines after the Battle of Tizca with Russ apparently with drawing to Fenris for unknown amount of years in the Heresy. Dozens/ hundreds of Custodes also killed in the battle, Magnus along with 1000 powerful librarians escaping. It would appear the Battle of Tizca was a pyrrhic victory for the Imperium.

 

Source? How you are throwing numbers is just wrong...Also people are using book where TS are protagonist (you know hero death and all), but fact is prospero burned in a day...

Also, you really are forgeting that Tzeench removed his gift (god mode), and then TS became regular psyker astartes (like they were before Magnus), so it all comes down to Tzeench...

I he gave them god mode and Magnus organized defences SW wouldn't survive, but agains regular psykers (who can overheat:-) SW win 10/10....

 

Fact SW were in the vanguard during the great scouring in which they lost majority of the legion..And that's freaking fact which only shows that numbers from your conjecture are wrong...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Let's stay on topic guys, take it to the pm's.

and where ever you take it, let's stay frosty. we Wolves dont want to act like fanbois do we?

WLK

[b1soul]

TSons probably would've beaten back the Wolves if Magnus was committed to defending to Prospero and not actively sabotaging his own legion

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

TSons probably would've beaten back the Wolves if Magnus was committed to defending to Prospero and not actively sabotaging his own legion

 

there's already another thread on this, under "battle of tizca". keep anything Wolf vs T-Sons related there.

 

WLK

[Max_Gore]

Sounds like a good book, I'll get it once it's paperback.

 

It's nice to finally see Angron fighting worthy foes also.

[Llagos_Tyrant]

Just read it in two days.

 

Gods above ... What a read!

 

It was absolutely incredible. Easily my favourite 40k novel - which is saying something because I loved Helsreach  a lot(also by ADB), but also one of my favourite books - ever. The plot twists were incredible, the pace was amazing and the characters. Gods of the Warp, I've always hated the Word Bearers and felt indifferent about the World Eaters but man did this book turn it around - entirely because of the characters.

 

Its haunting, chilling and incredible.

 

I only have one, minor complaint.

 

MAJOR SPOILERS

 

And that is that I fell in love with Argel Tal - this being the first book I've read with him in it - only to see him die at the end. I mean what the hell? And then Erebus goes free at the end? We get a story revision from Argel Tal at Terra never making it, and Erebus, the man I directed my ignorant rage - and now much deserved rage - too, manages to get off missing a hand?

 

I hope to the Gods that he is flayed alive and tortured in the darkest pits of hell for eternity, watching a stream of destiny float by, knowing that if he can touch it he will be freed and can play with fate at whim - but it is just out of his reach, from the bloody stump that Khârn left him with. It would be poetic justice.

 

This is not a complaint per se. The twist was excellent, and I admire it as much as I am loathe to accept it. The thought of an aquila had crossed my mind earlier, but I had always heard the account that he died at Terra. This is a bitter parting, but I would like to be hopeful that he survives, given the fact that Erebus thought he would be too weak to move, whereas he could and that it is never actually written that he is dead.

 

 

And even that made it a better book, though I am loathe to accept it at all.

[DarKnight]

Just read it in two days.

 

Gods above ... What a read!

 

It was absolutely incredible. Easily my favourite 40k novel - which is saying something because I loved Helsreach  a lot(also by ADB), but also one of my favourite books - ever. The plot twists were incredible, the pace was amazing and the characters. Gods of the Warp, I've always hated the Word Bearers and felt indifferent about the World Eaters but man did this book turn it around - entirely because of the characters.

 

Its haunting, chilling and incredible.

 

I only have one, minor complaint.

 

MAJOR SPOILERS

 

And that is that I fell in love with Argel Tal - this being the first book I've read with him in it - only to see him die at the end. I mean what the hell? And then Erebus goes free at the end? We get a story revision from Argel Tal at Terra never making it, and Erebus, the man I directed my ignorant rage - and now much deserved rage - too, manages to get off missing a hand?

 

I hope to the Gods that he is flayed alive and tortured in the darkest pits of hell for eternity, watching a stream of destiny float by, knowing that if he can touch it he will be freed and can play with fate at whim - but it is just out of his reach, from the bloody stump that Khârn left him with. It would be poetic justice.

 

This is not a complaint per se. The twist was excellent, and I admire it as much as I am loathe to accept it. The thought of an aquila had crossed my mind earlier, but I had always heard the account that he died at Terra. This is a bitter parting, but I would like to be hopeful that he survives, given the fact that Erebus thought he would be too weak to move, whereas he could and that it is never actually written that he is dead.

 

 

And even that made it a better book, though I am loathe to accept it at all.

Gotta read The First Heretic as soon as you can, brother. Aurelian as well if you can find it.

[Llagos_Tyrant]

 

Just read it in two days.

 

Gods above ... What a read!

 

It was absolutely incredible. Easily my favourite 40k novel - which is saying something because I loved Helsreach  a lot(also by ADB), but also one of my favourite books - ever. The plot twists were incredible, the pace was amazing and the characters. Gods of the Warp, I've always hated the Word Bearers and felt indifferent about the World Eaters but man did this book turn it around - entirely because of the characters.

 

Its haunting, chilling and incredible.

 

I only have one, minor complaint.

 

MAJOR SPOILERS

 

And that is that I fell in love with Argel Tal - this being the first book I've read with him in it - only to see him die at the end. I mean what the hell? And then Erebus goes free at the end? We get a story revision from Argel Tal at Terra never making it, and Erebus, the man I directed my ignorant rage - and now much deserved rage - too, manages to get off missing a hand?

 

I hope to the Gods that he is flayed alive and tortured in the darkest pits of hell for eternity, watching a stream of destiny float by, knowing that if he can touch it he will be freed and can play with fate at whim - but it is just out of his reach, from the bloody stump that Khârn left him with. It would be poetic justice.

 

This is not a complaint per se. The twist was excellent, and I admire it as much as I am loathe to accept it. The thought of an aquila had crossed my mind earlier, but I had always heard the account that he died at Terra. This is a bitter parting, but I would like to be hopeful that he survives, given the fact that Erebus thought he would be too weak to move, whereas he could and that it is never actually written that he is dead.

 

 

And even that made it a better book, though I am loathe to accept it at all.

Gotta read The First Heretic as soon as you can, brother. Aurelian as well if you can find it.

 

Agreed, but I'm stuck in Quebec and most of my local store's books are in French ... Woe betide he who speaks English, on an Island of French.