Beef Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Angron may still be a pawn but i am pretty sure Khorne enjoys Angron's bloodlust nature than the Emperor! thats not saying much really is it, khorne enjoys anybodies bloodlusty nature, its what he is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I think that some guys here are missing a point by miles. The book starts with Angron and his legion being "lost". Angron doesn't care about his own legion. Well, he doesn't care about anything. He doesn't care he is Emps pawn, he doesn't care about Russ, he doesn't care about loses, about his bodyguard. He is slowly dying, yet he is already dead, because only thing he cared about is gone. Even when he could kill Guilliman he felt no satisfaction from it, just more sorrow and pain. World Eaters are dying too. They already had low morale without primarch and meeting him wasn't inspiring. In an attempt to get closer to their primarch, they willingly mutilated their brains, but it didn't worked. The book is about World Eaters slowly realising it. Book ends with Angron finding his purpose. Angron cares nothing for whose pawn he is. He never cared. I have to say that Lorgars concerns for Angron are genuine, I think the book states it pretty clearly. He truly cares for his brother and changes him to Demon Prince to save his life. He sacrificed trillions of lives for one. And it worked pretty well, I think. Just look how book describes it: His broken body is reforged, rises to perfection. After ascension to demonhood we see that Angron FINALLY cares about Lorgar (he didn't care before, even when Lorgar almost died trying to save him), calls him brother and means it. Also when World Eaters looked at their primarch they finally felt awe. Maybe not that kind other marines felt when looking at primarch but awe nevertheless. TLDR: Angron cares not if he is pwn of Emperor or Khorne. The point is he finally found out his purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Bloodlust need not to be required. Only killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 RapatoR, I agree with you for the most part except for on one point. Angron does care about one thing: He will never be the Emperor's pawn. The Emperor took him from the one thing he cared about and never even tried to save it even though the War Hounds were there. So if there is one thing Angron cares about still, it is his hate towards the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 @ RapatoR, killing trillions to save Angron is just an investement in the future. Angron will repay that death toll a 100 fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 @ RapatoR, killing trillions to save Angron is just an investement in the future. Angron will repay that death toll a 100 fold. Yes it will. But that does not mean that Lorgar could not have done because he cared for his brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 RapatoR, I agree with you for the most part except for on one point. Angron does care about one thing: He will never be the Emperor's pawn. The Emperor took him from the one thing he cared about and never even tried to save it even though the War Hounds were there. So if there is one thing Angron cares about still, it is his hate towards the Emperor. Well I agee but I thing, he realised that he hates Emperor only after he returned to home planet. Before that he only felt sorrow for his slain kindred and called Emps dictator because he perceived him as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Terra Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Dunno if they've cropped up elsewhere as I've been away from the game for many years and only read some of the fluff (Abnett, ADB, McNeill and some others) but I just loved the concept of the Destroyers. All those radiation grenades took me back to deepest 2nd ed. A nice nostalgia kick. I also liked Lotarra and the stuff dealing with the Conqueror. Was weird and kind of nice to see a non-Astartes human that the World Eaters, and even Angron. respected. And of course, Khârn's showdown with Erebus was brilliant. Erebus reminding himself that he could go almost toe to toe with Lucius and Loken and then Khârn shows up taking a pit-fight seriously for the first time in his life and slaps Erebus around without any effort. Couldn't happen to a nicer schemer. ADB has a gift for fleshing out marines and primarchs in a way unmatched by anyone else at the Black Library. This book could've easily been a disaster in the hands of some other authors, with Angron reduced to a "HULK SMASH" characature as he so often has been and Lorgar in the background twirling his moustache for all he's worth. Yet ADB managed to bring depth to a primarch and legion that are, essentially, broken, abused and all kinds of damaged. There's not many authors that could elicit sympathy and a degree of empathy for a legion of frothing berzerkers lead by the apex-berzerker. I've lamented on threads here in the past that in terms of writing the World Eaters and Angron have often been dealt an unfair hand as they've been portrayed as very one-dimensional nutters and that many fans ignored or never cared for the deeper potential of their background stuff that portrays Angron as a essentially greatness denied by circumstance. He could have been a second Guilliman or Dorn but it all went tragically wrong, through little fault of his own. ADB utterly nailed this aspect and I hope the book goes a long way to convincing people to see the underlying depth and tragedy of the World Eaters instead of viewing them as uninteresting bad guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 My wife downloaded it onto my iPad this morning merry Xmas to me :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtwhizz Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Loved the book, but as usual there is a rather annoying element to it like there is with all WH40K books. The Emperor is the Master of Mankind. The greatest psychic in the history of the galaxy. Has enough power to rival the Chaos Gods themselves. Yet, we're supposed to believe he's a complete freaking moron when it comes to managing his genetically engineered sons. I enjoy getting to see depth and motivation from the Primarchs other than "RAWR! I WANT POWER!" I like that the Primarchs are an unhappy family and have arguments, fights, divisions among themselves. I certainly don't mind half of those Primarchs switching sides and fighting Poppa E. I don't need the Emperor to be flawless and have thought out everything to a T. However, it kind of beggars freaking belief that he'd be SO dumb as to make the mistakes we're supposed to believe he'd make. Like pulling Angron away from his final battle instead of just lifting a finger and setting that entire world on fire and then leaving with a happy Angron. I hope Aaron, Dan, or someone up there at the BL has some good ideas on how to finish out the Horus Heresy, because as we get further into this thing it's looking more and more like they're completely sacrificing any legitimate character arc for the Emperor in favor of ones for the Primarchs. Kurze is a deep character now, Angron is a deep character now, even poor forgotten Perturabo has now been fleshed out. But it seems like they've been done so at the expense of making the Emperor into a drooling idiot of a paper tiger. At this point, if I'm supposed to believe the HH books, it seems like ALL the Primarchs should have given the Emperor the finger. Roboute or Rogal should have drop kicked him off the golden toilet seat because clearly the Emperor is a buffoon who purposefully antagonizes his sons, makes stupid mistake after stupid mistake, and is basically handing humanity over to be smooth butt :cussed for eternity by dark laughing gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 All valid points, but he's all of those things and, as Grammaticus came to realize, utterly devoid of humanity. Why is there an expectation that the Emperor even has the capacity to deal with his own "offspring" as if he were a true parent, or even that if he were capable of doing so that he would condescend to bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 It's all about the emperor's hubris, the whole thing is pretty much out of his reach, yet he tries... The Primarchs were supposed to be Warp-proof leaders of a new age, yet, the Chaos gods still managed to take them from the emperor (warp-proof, eh ?). The New Men they were supposed to be are finally nothing more than army leaders, and some are even physically tainted by Chaos (Sanguinus and Magnus). The emperor's endgame is a failure nearly from day one. Then, backup plan, let's put some work in old parts of the webway, to rely less on the warp ! Once again, the emperor's toys are broken by some smartass (Magnus, in that case), which leads to the definite end of that project (with an apocalyptic threat to humanity, as the warp is litteraly about to pop out the emperor's palace) and the punishment of Magnus without even taking notice of his warning. Once again, I think the emperor pretty much losts contact with reality and overestimates his power (just like that time he was being chocked to death by that random ork). In the end, he achieves nothing but ensuring ruin to his empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Well, it's matter of taste really. If Emps was flawless, the universe would look differently in 40k. Also my POW on Emps, is that he is more bad bloodhirsty dictator as mentioned bz Grammaticus, than good ol' lad. It's more grimdark IMHO (but at the end matter of personal taste). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Emperor is sure bloodthirsty(Angron and Sanguinius had to take from their father after all) but i don't think he's your average tyrant. He pulled humanity from brink of extinction and took the leash only to secure a place in the galaxy. He doesn't seem to trip on power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 It's not about the Emp as much as it is about the Heresy transitioning from a handful of pages into a book cycle (actually two book cycles if you count Forgeworld). As long as the Heresy did not have to be elaborated on, it kinda worked as this B-movie type quasi-epic where the fall of the Primarchs can be written into their freaking names, not to mention their background, and still be acceptable. But as more and more pages started pouring into this narrative, aspects of it became more and more awkward, since, unfortunately, some authors, like ADB, started compounding the absurdity instead of reducing it so as to make the transition less jarring. So we have these discussions about how the Emp could have just ignored Angron's hopelessly bloodthirsty nature, or how for several centuries he missed Lorgar's flagrant opposition to the Imperial Truth, or how he let the 1k Sons become dangerously unstable. I feel we could have a similar discussion about pretty much any of the other traitor Primarchs. Personally, I'm very disappointed not to have seen, among others, a sane Angron, free of the Butcher's Nails and well capable of matching the sophistication of his brothers. Only to eventually succumb to the weight of his guilt and despair, of course, but sane and composed nevertheless for a time. Such a handling of him would have eliminated any accusations towards the Emp, and actually compound Angron's tragedy - the Nails would have been removed, but the wounds would have reopened after a time. EDIT: typos as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Here's a change of pace, what is, in your view, the most iconic scene from Betrayer? I think mine is when Angron goes onto the bridge of the Conqueror after the battle for Armatura and shows concern for the Scrymistress who is bound to her console. It's... different and it says that Angron is only who he is because of what was done to him and that if he had the choice he would be someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antarius Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I really enjoyed the book, but I just wanted to ask...Does anyone like Erebus anymore? I kinda like him. I love him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Edit: woof, posted this in the wrong "rant about ADB" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasphexia Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Emperor is sure bloodthirsty(Angron and Sanguinius had to take from their father after all) but i don't think he's your average tyrant. He pulled humanity from brink of extinction and took the leash only to secure a place in the galaxy. He doesn't seem to trip on power. He's definitely not just a typical tyrant, he's of a position anyone in the galaxy could meet him regardless of race and could see he's just something else. A believable God born from a soon-to-be secular race. The Big E is portrayed as pure ambition, but the way the heresy is playing out he's looking like a God of ambition who may have got so high up he could no longer see the finer details. His main fault just seems to be neglect, which is a tragic mistake to make for the being who was so powerful it could challenge and defeat the entirety of Chaos one on one to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 He is humanity personified in a way nothing else is. He is our bloodthirst, our envy, our love, our mercy, our logic, our nihilism and our hypocrisy. Thus not only was he perfect, but his very perfection is what made him imperfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Personally, the frustratingly vague portrayal of the Emperor throughout the HH books is bais to legitimize the traitor's ideals and actions which gives them a bit of fresh spice. I dont think he's an uncaring or complacent tyrant because we havent really seen his detailed perspective on matters yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 He is humanity personified in a way nothing else is. He is our bloodthirst, our envy, our love, our mercy, our logic, our nihilism and our hypocrisy. Thus not only was he perfect, but his very perfection is what made him imperfect. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Personally, the frustratingly vague portrayal of the Emperor throughout the HH books is bais to legitimize the traitor's ideals and actions which gives them a bit of fresh spice. I dont think he's an uncaring or complacent tyrant because we havent really seen his detailed perspective on matters yet. so far, and in my opinion alone, almost the entire HH series has been nothing but excuses for the traitor legions. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Yeah,agree...or I could say they are making 30k more like soap opera...Next thing you will know that Horus is a good guy :-) So far we have : Perturabo ("tAE")- totally justifed and a cool guy who just wanted to build stuff,pissed that IW weren't in the picture (literary) Magnus ("aTS") - *just insert what every TS fan is thinking* Alpharius/Omegon - they want something good for humankind,blink-blink,wink,wink Angron - emphatic soul, great chap - has every right, because Emp teleported his arse Someone please continue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of the Heresy series to show what happened and why it happened? Besides, isn't the road to hell supposed to be paved with good intentions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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