Betrayer

[Vesper]

Sigismund would rip Khârn's heart out = Fact

 

Indeed proof Sigismund was too afraid to face him because Khârn still has his heart in 40k.

 

Comparing pointless powerlevels.

 

Khârn's power level is 8888.. Yeah well Sigismund is OVER 9000.

 

meh

Technically, Khârn even has his two hearts !

On a serious note, the battle of the emperor's palace is something huge. If BL makes famous characters clashing each other over and over during this battle, they would make it look tiny as hell.

[KarkassBC]

And at the same time BL need to give a reasonable explanation why in their books the "hidden sniper" after careful preparation always kills the battle brother beside the hero/sword killing machine.

[Excessus]

And at the same time BL need to give a reasonable explanation why in their books the "hidden sniper" after careful preparation always kills the battle brother beside the hero/sword killing machine.

Duh, that's because the hero has plot armour equipped. He wouldn't be able to penetrate it anyway with only a sniper rifle...

[Kol Saresk]

Not true! Plot Armor didn't save Fulgrim from being shot! It only kept him from dying!

[Excessus]

Not true! Plot Armor didn't save Fulgrim from being shot! It only kept him from dying!

Then he had crappy plot armour, but at least he didn't die...

[Kol Saresk]

I don't know, I'd say surviving a headshot is some pretty decent armor.

[Excessus]

I don't know, I'd say surviving a headshot is some pretty decent armor.

It's Fulgrim, he wouldn't die of something as ugly as a headshot(what, a hole in the middle of that perfect forehead, it cannot happen!)...

[RapatoR]

Does that have anything to do with fact that he might be.... you know... primarch?

[Kol Saresk]

Does that have anything to do with fact that he might be.... you know... primarch?

Logically(or as logical as the fluff can be), it is unknown as Fulgrim was already well on his path to daemonhood when it happened so it might, or might not be within the realms of Primarch physiology to heal the damage caused by a bullet bouncing around in a skull. Although Perturabo seemed pretty worried about it when it happened.

[Beef]

I don't know, I'd say surviving a headshot is some pretty decent armor.

 

 

Well he was a Primarch, and i fa Primarch can handle a powerfist to the face (like russ did when he fought the EMP) than whats a bullet to the head?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I don't know, I'd say surviving a headshot is some pretty decent armor.

 

 

Well he was a Primarch, and i fa Primarch can handle a powerfist to the face (like russ did when he fought the EMP) than whats a bullet to the head?

 

probably an annoyance.

 

now what are 50 bolters to the head? 100 bolters to the head? the Wolves wouldnt do anything stupid now. they would bring enough force to finish the job.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

Bullets, not bolter rounds. And somehow I imagine the Emperor would have held back on that punch, not to mention the power field was probably off.

 

EDIT: I'm not trying to take anything away from Russ, just that the two situations would be like comparing Delicious Red Apple to a Florida Orange.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Bullets, not bolter rounds. And somehow I imagine the Emperor would have held back on that punch, not to mention the power field was probably off.

 

EDIT: I'm not trying to take anything away from Russ, just that the two situations would be like comparing Delicious Red Apple to a Florida Orange.

 

oh yea, I have no doubt if the Emp punched any being in the head with a activated power fist there wouldnt be anythng left but paste on the glove.

 

WLK

[Vesper]

Not true! Plot Armor didn't save Fulgrim from being shot! It only kept him from dying!

Then he had crappy plot armour, but at least he didn't die...

The assassin had a crappy plot rifle. Or maybe it was all about crappy plot bullet.

[Excessus]

the Wolves wouldnt do anything stupid now. they would bring enough force to finish the job.

Like they did on Prospero? If they hadn't been extremely lucky about Magnus betraying his own legion(sending the whole darn fleet away with a lot of Thousand Sons troops and auxiliary forces, veiling the planet stopping the sons from knowing they were on their way...and such...) that battle would have ended a whole lot differently...

 

Luck...

[KarkassBC]

the Wolves wouldnt do anything stupid now. they would bring enough force to finish the job.

Like they did on Prospero? If they hadn't been extremely lucky about Magnus betraying his own legion(sending the whole darn fleet away with a lot of Thousand Sons troops and auxiliary forces, veiling the planet stopping the sons from knowing they were on their way...and such...) that battle would have ended a whole lot differently...

 

Luck...

 

That was a result of Horus lies... Horus changed the orders for Russ from escorting a Primarch to Terra to kill one... In fact he hoped for the destruction of both Legions (he evaluated the military power of those two Legion as equal with the pro and cons - silent sisters and orbital defence system).

 

The "battle roster" of the SW armada was fixed and already in movement to Prospero, otherwise Russ planning an attack from the start surely will take with him an Imperial Fleet and a great number of Imperial Guards Regiments.

 

At the end, in truth, without Magnus's actions, the battle would have finished with a decisive TS victory.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

the Wolves wouldnt do anything stupid now. they would bring enough force to finish the job.

Like they did on Prospero? If they hadn't been extremely lucky about Magnus betraying his own legion(sending the whole darn fleet away with a lot of Thousand Sons troops and auxiliary forces, veiling the planet stopping the sons from knowing they were on their way...and such...) that battle would have ended a whole lot differently...

 

Luck...

 

That was a result of Horus lies... Horus changed the orders for Russ from escorting a Primarch to Terra to kill one... In fact he hoped for the destruction of both Legions (he evaluated the military power of those two Legion as equal with the pro and cons - silent sisters and orbital defence system).

 

The "battle roster" of the SW armada was fixed and already in movement to Prospero, otherwise Russ planning an attack from the start surely will take with him an Imperial Fleet and a great number of Imperial Guards Regiments.

 

At the end, in truth, without Magnus's actions, the battle would have finished with a decisive TS victory.

 

I fully believe that if Russ had brought an army to Prospero with the sole intention of killing Magnus and his traitorous Sons, he would have included atleast 1 Titan.

 

The fact his force, assaulting a Legion's homeworld with the entire Legion on it, wouldnt include atleast Imperial Army super heavy vehicles strikes me as monumental stupidity of the highest order. I dont believe that Russ, or any Primarch for that matter, is that stupid, so the error falls on the author. Abnett could have atleast tossed in a half-asses remark saying "every single Army tank and Mars Titan magically disapeered when the orders for Prospero came" and I would have been annoyed, but swallowed it.

But to not have a single mention of them? nothing. Not a peep.

 

No Imperial navy assets, no heavy support of any kind, or dedicated siege units (if Prospero held out longer than intended). nothing.

 

So yea, its a pretty sloppy section and a poor one for anybody to judge the Wolves by.

 

But it is far easier to call them stupid, and say they were lucky.

 

WLK

[Wade Garrett]

Ahem.

 

"This is Astartes business, and will be settled by Astartes."

None of the Legions sent to dig Horus's original 4 Legions out of Isstvan brought along hordes of expendable meat shields, er, allied Guard contingents, either.

 

Bringing Army to an Astartes fight is just going to rack up the butcher's bill. Look at the fate of the Prospero Spire Guard. And I question the notion that without a suicidal Magnus it would have been an instant win for the Sons. The Wolves outnumber them, have orbital superiority, and contingents of Rune Priests and Sisters of Silence to counter the maleficarum.

[Wade Garrett]

Ahem.

 

"This is Astartes business, and will be settled by Astartes."

None of the Legions sent to dig Horus's original 4 Legions out of Isstvan brought along hordes of expendable meat shields, er, allied Guard contingents, either.

 

Bringing Army to an Astartes fight is just going to rack up the butcher's bill. Look at the fate of the Prospero Spire Guard. And I question the notion that without a suicidal Magnus it would have been an instant win for the Sons. The Wolves outnumber them, have orbital superiority, and contingents of Rune Priests and Sisters of Silence to counter the maleficarum.

[Kol Saresk]

It would have been worse for the Wolves, but I concur. There is no guarantee that it would have been a win. At best, it will and forever be a Schrodinger's cat.

[Billuriye]

Bringing Army to an Astartes fight is just going to rack up the butcher's bill. Look at the fate of the Prospero Spire Guard. And I question the notion that without a suicidal Magnus it would have been an instant win for the Sons. The Wolves outnumber them, have orbital superiority, and contingents of Rune Priests and Sisters of Silence to counter the maleficarum.

 

Did they have orbital superiority? Assuming defense systems activated of course.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Ahem.

 

"This is Astartes business, and will be settled by Astartes."

 

I remember that with the Dropsite Massacre, but was that said about Prospero?

 

if so, then i find it stupid, but less stupid than I did before.

 

WLK

[Epistolary Exander]

the Wolves wouldnt do anything stupid now. they would bring enough force to finish the job.

Like they did on Prospero? If they hadn't been extremely lucky about Magnus betraying his own legion(sending the whole darn fleet away with a lot of Thousand Sons troops and auxiliary forces, veiling the planet stopping the sons from knowing they were on their way...and such...) that battle would have ended a whole lot differently...

 

Luck...

 

That was a result of Horus lies... Horus changed the orders for Russ from escorting a Primarch to Terra to kill one... In fact he hoped for the destruction of both Legions (he evaluated the military power of those two Legion as equal with the pro and cons - silent sisters and orbital defence system).

 

The "battle roster" of the SW armada was fixed and already in movement to Prospero, otherwise Russ planning an attack from the start surely will take with him an Imperial Fleet and a great number of Imperial Guards Regiments.

 

At the end, in truth, without Magnus's actions, the battle would have finished with a decisive TS victory.

 

I fully believe that if Russ had brought an army to Prospero with the sole intention of killing Magnus and his traitorous Sons, he would have included atleast 1 Titan.

 

The fact his force, assaulting a Legion's homeworld with the entire Legion on it, wouldnt include atleast Imperial Army super heavy vehicles strikes me as monumental stupidity of the highest order. I dont believe that Russ, or any Primarch for that matter, is that stupid, so the error falls on the author. Abnett could have atleast tossed in a half-asses remark saying "every single Army tank and Mars Titan magically disapeered when the orders for Prospero came" and I would have been annoyed, but swallowed it.

But to not have a single mention of them? nothing. Not a peep.

 

No Imperial navy assets, no heavy support of any kind, or dedicated siege units (if Prospero held out longer than intended). nothing.

 

So yea, its a pretty sloppy section and a poor one for anybody to judge the Wolves by.

 

But it is far easier to call them stupid, and say they were lucky.

 

WLK

 

This appears to be ridiculous. It is implied from ATS that the fleet Russ lead to Propero was comprised of much more than just the SW legion, with "ships of many flags and alliegiances" Page 463. As in this era the Army and Navy were tied together with each Army element attached to a specific ship, the only way this could be achieved would have been to take a large Imperial Army contigent with its supporting armour which have almost certainly included Super-Heavy Tanks. It should not be surprising that there is no reference for Super-heavy tanks taking part in the Battle of Tizca considering the scenes are primarily from the view of the Space Marines fighting the opposing Space Marines or from Hauser in the SW case.

 

As Russ was originally sent to arrest Magnus, he would have needed to be prepared to seize Magnus by force which would have meant subduing the defences of Tizca & and taking the "rebel positions" so Russ could actually get to Magnus as it probably would have taken Russ to knock out Magnus to arrest him. In order to do that the most effective way is to destroy the vast majority of the enemy force placed in front of you, especially as the defenders would fight to protect their homes. Considering this was what pretty much happened at Prospero with Russ trying to kill Magnus there is very little difference between the forces & strategy Russ would have needed to achieve the 2 different missions.

 

This is similair to when the UK intervened in Sierra Leone in 2000. The UK government sent in the UK military in to protect Sierra Leone civilians from encroaching rebels, while the head of the UK intervention forces in theatre promised the Sierra Leone government his forces would destroy the rebels as the tactics and strategies needed to achieve the 2 different objectives were basically identical. Later on the UK government did change the objectives of the intervention to destroy the rebels.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

the Wolves wouldnt do anything stupid now. they would bring enough force to finish the job.

Like they did on Prospero? If they hadn't been extremely lucky about Magnus betraying his own legion(sending the whole darn fleet away with a lot of Thousand Sons troops and auxiliary forces, veiling the planet stopping the sons from knowing they were on their way...and such...) that battle would have ended a whole lot differently...

 

Luck...

 

That was a result of Horus lies... Horus changed the orders for Russ from escorting a Primarch to Terra to kill one... In fact he hoped for the destruction of both Legions (he evaluated the military power of those two Legion as equal with the pro and cons - silent sisters and orbital defence system).

 

The "battle roster" of the SW armada was fixed and already in movement to Prospero, otherwise Russ planning an attack from the start surely will take with him an Imperial Fleet and a great number of Imperial Guards Regiments.

 

At the end, in truth, without Magnus's actions, the battle would have finished with a decisive TS victory.

 

I fully believe that if Russ had brought an army to Prospero with the sole intention of killing Magnus and his traitorous Sons, he would have included atleast 1 Titan.

 

The fact his force, assaulting a Legion's homeworld with the entire Legion on it, wouldnt include atleast Imperial Army super heavy vehicles strikes me as monumental stupidity of the highest order. I dont believe that Russ, or any Primarch for that matter, is that stupid, so the error falls on the author. Abnett could have atleast tossed in a half-asses remark saying "every single Army tank and Mars Titan magically disapeered when the orders for Prospero came" and I would have been annoyed, but swallowed it.

But to not have a single mention of them? nothing. Not a peep.

 

No Imperial navy assets, no heavy support of any kind, or dedicated siege units (if Prospero held out longer than intended). nothing.

 

So yea, its a pretty sloppy section and a poor one for anybody to judge the Wolves by.

 

But it is far easier to call them stupid, and say they were lucky.

 

WLK

 

This appears to be ridiculous. It is implied from ATS that the fleet Russ lead to Propero was comprised of much more than just the SW legion, with "ships of many flags and alliegiances" Page 463. As in this era the Army and Navy were tied together with each Army element attached to a specific ship, the only way this could be achieved would have been to take a large Imperial Army contigent with its supporting armour which have almost certainly included Super-Heavy Tanks. It should not be surprising that there is no reference for Super-heavy tanks taking part in the Battle of Tizca considering the scenes are primarily from the view of the Space Marines fighting the opposing Space Marines or from Hauser in the SW case.

 

As Russ was originally sent to arrest Magnus, he would have needed to be prepared to seize Magnus by force which would have meant subduing the defences of Tizca & and taking the "rebel positions" so Russ could actually get to Magnus as it probably would have taken Russ to knock out Magnus to arrest him. In order to do that the most effective way is to destroy the vast majority of the enemy force placed in front of you, especially as the defenders would fight to protect their homes. Considering this was what pretty much happened at Prospero with Russ trying to kill Magnus there is very little difference between the forces & strategy Russ would have needed to achieve the 2 different missions.

 

It may appear ridiculous, but I cannot remember any mention of the SW having either guard or titan support in either ATS or PB. If there is some there, and I missed it, then i'll stand corrected. may even apoligize for my earlier statement.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

I don't have access to my books at the moment, but IIRC, Prospero had neither orbital defenses nor surface to orbit weaponry. They didn't even have void shields protecting their cities. So when the defense fleet was scattered, the only protection Prospero had was the KSons and the Spire Guard. The Titan the KSons had was supposed to be nonoperational except that one of KSons had it repaired. So to be honest, the only fight the Wolves were supposed to expect were the Spire Guard, the KSons themselves and the Prospero Defense Fleet. Meanwhile you have a full battlefleet belonging to the Wolves, the Wolves themselves, the Sisters of Silence and the Custodians(with the last two having unknown, but considerable, numbers to my knowledge) attacking. Starting out with an orbital bombardment on Tizca itself that was deflected by the KSons. They didn't consider the KSons warriors, only witches. They probably weren't expecting as big of a fight as they got.

 

Of course, this is all speculation. As all the above is.