Raven Angel Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 A Strike Cruiser is more like a job description then a class. It is likely that they do have several things in common though. Large landing bays and heavy broardsides would be my guess. Things like speed and armor would likely very according to Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3272927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Although 40k they have probably traded some of their firepower for armor due to their Codex-limited capacity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3272932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Yeah derp on my part about the strike cruisers. Â Always remember kids, 30k=more awesomeness /40k=codex only awesomeness. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3272940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 After some thought and consideration I believe that all ships should be listed because army and navy ships would move in and out of Astartes fleets at will The Legions commanded all of these forces should they so desire so technically they are all SM ships whether there are SMs on them or not.  From False Gods  Glory of Terra Class ? Flagship Davin defence fleet Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Well there's that and the fact that even some of the actual SM ships carry Imperial Army units, like the Vengeful Spirit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Also the Vengeful Spirit held the Titanarium for the Legio Mortis and the Conqueror the Titanarium for the Legio Aurdax. At this point I don't think you can make a real distinction between army, navy and SM. To quote a favorite villan of mine "We are all one big happy fleet." :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Not all ships were under command of the Astartes. There were about 5000 expedition fleets, only a fraction of them included Astartes. Meaning that most ships would fall under the command of regular human (Imperial Army) commanders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jokaero weaponsmith Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 The German Lexicanum has galleries for the HH Card Game. Since the HH artbooks are compilations of the artwork from the card game, these galleries can be used to double check some of the content from Collected Visions. Death Guard  [...] Gladiator Capital ship. pg38 Belongs to the WE in the card game: Gladiator  When I saw it I thought its iconography looked world eaters as well, I've checked cards and your right. Gladiator. Capital ship World eaters pg376 Horus Heresy Collected visions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Not all ships were under command of the Astartes. There were about 5000 expedition fleets, only a fraction of them included Astartes. Meaning that most ships would fall under the command of regular human (Imperial Army) commanders. Â You missed the point malika which is that all these ships at some level fall under the command of a primarch at this point in history and any legion can draft them into their own fleet with just a word so there is no independent navy or army that can tell the SMs to sod off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Not all ships were under command of the Astartes. There were about 5000 expedition fleets, only a fraction of them included Astartes. Meaning that most ships would fall under the command of regular human (Imperial Army) commanders. Â You missed the point malika which is that all these ships at some level fall under the command of a primarch at this point in history and any legion can draft them into their own fleet with just a word so there is no independent navy or army that can tell the SMs to sod off. Â Yet this command could constantly change. Meaning that the Imperial Army did maintain its own fleets, just that sometimes a Primarch could take control over that fleet. Doesn't mean that that specific fleet was actually part of that Primarch's Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 This is an interesting point. Do we include ONLY Legion vessels or all Imperial Vessels under the command of the Legions... Â Personally I'd stick to Legion-only. The main reason is that the project is to catalogue the Legion Fleets not all Imperial Forces, so as to keep it firmly within B&C scope. Secondly it is also the fact that in principle non-Legion ships could be re-allocated to other Legions creating confusion as to which Legion they serve (although admittedly the possibility of this happening in an actual novel is very slim). The third has to do with logistics. Trying to catalogue every single vessel ever mentioned in relation to the Heresy is just too huge a task, even for the mighty Captain to keep up... ;) Â But I might be persuaded otherwise, in fact I seriously consider adding another column titled "notes" and there we can add whatever clarification we need... Â What do you guys think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I was just skimming Fulgrim and noticed something. Ferrus takes his vets and deploys for Istvaan aboard the Ferrum. Thats rather well known. The part i had overlooked, Ferrus makes planetfall with TEN COMPANIES of Morlocks. Its been assumed that the Ferrum was a strike cruiser. My understanding 40k strike cruisers was that they could deploy only one company. If Ferrum could deploy TEN companies of TERMINATORS its something other than what we know as a "strike cruiser". Sorry for all the yelling. Yes and no. A strike cruiser in 30k is vastly more superior to a strike cruiser in 40k. The 40k versions were downgraded due to the general downgrading of the Legions to the Chapters and the constraints placed upon them. For example, a 40k strike cruiser is not supposed to be able to hold its own in void combat. In 30k, strike cruisers were expected to excel in void combat. a logical explanation. Makes sense, any official fluff confirming this ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Another addition -- the Theta, of the XX Legion. Destroyed at Isstvan V by the Veritas Ferrum in the mp3 of the same name. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 This is an interesting point. Do we include ONLY Legion vessels or all Imperial Vessels under the command of the Legions... Personally I'd stick to Legion-only. The main reason is that the project is to catalogue the Legion Fleets not all Imperial Forces, so as to keep it firmly within B&C scope. Secondly it is also the fact that in principle non-Legion ships could be re-allocated to other Legions creating confusion as to which Legion they serve (although admittedly the possibility of this happening in an actual novel is very slim). The third has to do with logistics. Trying to catalogue every single vessel ever mentioned in relation to the Heresy is just too huge a task, even for the mighty Captain to keep up... ^_^  But I might be persuaded otherwise, in fact I seriously consider adding another column titled "notes" and there we can add whatever clarification we need...  What do you guys think?  Well, thing is that the sources we have so far are primarily about Space Marines. Imperial Army ships seem to be mentioned rarely, it almost gives the impression as if the Great Crusade was just Space Marines.  If I were you, I'd just include these factions' ships in the list as well, it gives us a more complete picture of what was going on. Besides it's not that much extra work, you've got an entire forum of people here looking up the ships so all you need to do is just add them to the list. Also, it would only be adding one or two more factions to the list (Imperial Army, Sisters of Silence).  It's only a tiny bit of extra effort, but the result will be so much more complete, making this a very desirable document for fans, but most likely also for the BL/FW authors... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I was just skimming Fulgrim and noticed something. Ferrus takes his vets and deploys for Istvaan aboard the Ferrum. Thats rather well known. The part i had overlooked, Ferrus makes planetfall with TEN COMPANIES of Morlocks. Its been assumed that the Ferrum was a strike cruiser. My understanding 40k strike cruisers was that they could deploy only one company. If Ferrum could deploy TEN companies of TERMINATORS its something other than what we know as a "strike cruiser". Sorry for all the yelling. Yes and no. A strike cruiser in 30k is vastly more superior to a strike cruiser in 40k. The 40k versions were downgraded due to the general downgrading of the Legions to the Chapters and the constraints placed upon them. For example, a 40k strike cruiser is not supposed to be able to hold its own in void combat. In 30k, strike cruisers were expected to excel in void combat. a logical explanation. Makes sense, any official fluff confirming this ? More than a few. But most of it is crossover between BFG and BL. If you look at the specs for the 40k Strike Cruiser in BFG, it is a very weak ship in terms of firepower but has speed and some serious armor IIRC. And it can only carry 100 Space Marines. Or rather is only supposed to while Battle Barges can only carry 3-500 IIRC.  Then you have the Heresy counterparts such as the Covenant of Blood and the Echo of Damnation which could hold their own in void duels. You have the Word Bearers strike cruiser Infidus Diabolus, which at the beginning of Dark Apostle, held enough Word Bearers for two Hosts, which I think roughly equates to about 2000 Traitor Marines, give or take. And then you have the Dominus-class Battle-barge Ceres in Betrayer, an Ultramarines ship that is classed as being able to carry 5,000 troops. And then there is the Ferrum, shown above, holding say, 1,000 Troops. And then there are the Gloriana-class battle-barges Fidelitas Lex, Conqueror, Nightfall and Invincible Reason which are more than void war capable and in the case of the Conqueror, carries the 8th Company, the Devourers and the Triarii, with the last group being a standing counter-boarding company that equates to five full companies IIRC. So for the sake of argument, let's put the Devourers at full company strength, that would make it 700 troops. That's almost an entire Space Marine Chapter on one ship.  The thing we have to remember is that when the Imperium went through it's post-Heresy reform, the Space Marines gave up a ton of power. They were forced to organize into 1,000 strong Chapters and were no longer allowed to maintain fleets that could equal or better a comparable Naval ship of the same tonnage as well as only being allowed to maintain enough equipment that they can only deploy as rapid strike forces. That's why even the Ultramarines don't stick around to rebuild after fights in 40k. They can't afford to. And that fact combined with only two(maybe three) of the Legions acting in any kind of coherent fashion is why the popular belief that the Legions are dead exists and persists.  Essentially, just remember this. The Great Crusade was when anything was possible. In 40k, power means everything and some influential people did everything they could to make sure that power did not lie with the Space Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 This is an interesting point. Do we include ONLY Legion vessels or all Imperial Vessels snipsnip Malika does have a point, the ships are already being supplied and for the most part it doesn't seem to be too many of them. But I think it would be easier to put them all in one big group that is named "Others" or something like that, and then have specific notes saying "SoS"(Sisters of Silence), or AM(Mechanicum), DM(Dark Mechanicus), EBG(Custodes) and IA for Imperial Army. Something small that we can put in paranthesis next to the ship name so it doesn't take up too much room. At least, if I did it, that might make it better. That way we just have to add a key at the bottom without making the table have 18 Legions and then a section for every single other faction listed even though that faction might have only one ship. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3273663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Hope these comply with what your after all findings are from The Horus Heresy collected visionsHaven't listed ships already listed unless additional or conflicting information is provided.  Ultra Marines  Gauntlet of ........ /Salute  I did not want to do all that work. Good job. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3274049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 OK, interesting takes there... Â First off I would like to inform you that I'm adding the extra column titled "Notes". I have already done it for the DAs as a test and will gradually work it in the other Legions too throughout the day. In the notes section we need to add the SM Cmdr, the human captain and the status: i.e. active or destroyed. We can then add whatever other feature we feel like! Â Secondly, I'd like to add the table "Other". This would substitute the first table (which I will place last) and will include everything from the Emperor's own vessels to Mechanicum and everything we can think of. How about that? ;) Â Please remember that I'll need some time to update all the tables so I'd appreciate if you do send the info for the notes column to start filling it up! Â To war! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3274093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyros Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Wait a minute wasn't "Shadow of the Emperor" detroyed over Istvaan (deliverence lost or some of the short storys about Corax flight) and in Cadian blood it's the "Second Shadow" in honur of the first ship that was detroyed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3274120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 OK, check out the DAs. This is what I envisage for all Legions - any help is most welcome... Â @ Deus Ex Ferrum and Tyros: Nice finds guys - I have updated the relevant tables (not the "notes" column yet though)... Â Keep'em coming guys, the more detail the better! :tu: Â EDIT: Added notes for Emperor's Children Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3274137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 What do you guys think? That the captain needs to receive a mindscrubbing and turned into an auto-scribe servitor? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3274396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Captain Semper Looks good man I very pleased with that setup. Great guys lets keep them coming. Any one found a Salamander ship yet? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3274828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 One thing I must ask - what about ships from old codices - not just 5th Ed. but further back - RT/2nd/3rd etc. and the relative BRBs - or are we going for ONLY HH/CV and current codices/BL stuff? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3274833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Is there any ships from RT or 2nd ed. I don't remember anything from later editions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3274836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Well it's only ships listed as serving in the Heresy. If fluff that old specifically mentions them as being around for the Heresy, I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed as I don't think there can be anything that conflicts with it. Background is background and except for the major parts that conflict with current fluff, all of it should be valid regardless of how old it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268542-fleets-of-the-heresy/page/3/#findComment-3274837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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