Jump to content

The most human legion


cptphoenixck

Recommended Posts

Salamanders. The Iron Hands' mentality stems towards the balance of flesh and machine and the affect it has on the personalities of the Astartes. i.e. Manus was worried that it was stripping away the very thing that connected the post-human to the human. But after his death, the Iron Hands saw flesh(or "humanity") as weak and now seek to purge it from their bodies.

 

Salamanders on the other hand, accept that they are removed from mortal Humanity, that they have the appearance of demons, as a Legion acknowledge the fact that they are mutants, and yet despite all of this they seek to still be connected and enmeshed with mainstream Humanity instead of merely guarding it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the key things about the Sallies that provides the ultimate reinforcement of their "connected to humanity" bit is that when in garrison on Nocturne, they can choose to live in the sanctuary city that their company is based at -- rather than in the fortress monastery.  It's hard to feel divorced from humanity when you've got human families on the other side of the wall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Iron hands can not be called human, they do not tolerate weakness.

 

Salamanders, Imperial Fists and Space Wolves. But recent is "human" only to the loyal citizens and soldiers who fought side by side with them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we do not take the first company and fanatics like Sigismund other fists usually protect citizens.

 

Humane legionary one that can sacrifice themselve for the common people. In my understanding.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

True, but the Crimson Fists are a Chapter that came after the breaking of the Legions. Their attitude isn't exactly reflective of their parent Legion. It would be like meeting a modern-day descendant of Vlad Tepes and because they are nice and charming, saying that Count Dracula must have been a very charming person when he wasn't impaling people on pikes. Not saying that it's that extreme of a difference going from the Crimson Fists to their ancestors in the VII Legion, but I am saying that it's a difference.

 

Meanwhile we can look at the 40k Sallies and see that they don't just sacrifice themselves for the common man, but they actively seek to take care of them, making sure that refugees make it to the safezones, that civilians are sheltered from the more harmful elements if they can do so, and so on. And from what little I've seen, the 30k equivalent seems to be a direct connection to that.

 

Yes, in 40k the Space Wolves do appear to be more... considerate of their mortal allies and auxiliaries, more than what we normally see of the average Space Marine Chapter. But that's the thing, the Salamanders aren't exactly your average Chapter. Or Legion. They don't just fight for Humanity, or be willing to sacrifice themselves in defending it. They take care of it, they shelter it. They aren't the defenders of Humanity, but its shepherds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kol_Saresk, I agree with you. But if I did top5 "human" legions, , it would look like this:

 

1. Salamanders

2. Ultramarines

3. Space wolves

4. Imperial Fists

5. Word Bearers and Sons of Horus (both before heresy)

 

 

All marines are killing machines, just someone a bit more friendly and humane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if we're talking Legions, than I dont believe the Wolves or Salamanders belong on the list.

 

from their showing in "Promethean Son", the Salamanders were as...efficient of a Legion as anybody. It took the events of that story and Vulkan communing with the Emperor to start the change to a more humane legion.

 

the Wolves would butcher anybody if they were told to.  and then butcher the pieces into smaller pieces.

 

if I had to pick a humane legion, I would choose the Ultramarines. Not because they protected humanity, but they went out of their way not to eradicate them.

 

The Raven Guard may apply as well, if more is ever written about them.

 

WLK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fair enough. Hmm, my list would be similar, but there would definitely be some notable differences.

 

1. Salamanders

 

2, Ultramarines

 

3. Word Bearers(pre-Heresy)

 

4. Thousand Sons(pre-Heresy)

 

5. Raven Guard

 

Notable differences

 

1. Space Wolves are removed from the list because from what I have seen of the 30k incarnation, they aren't exactly the friendly bunch they were in the Ragnar series. They are... I think "pragmatic" is the word I am looking for. Yes, when the 13th Company arrived at a world besieged by Dark Eldar, the Wolves were more than willing to help the human inhabitants. But as soon as the inhabitants refused to join the Imperium, the Wolves wasted no time bringing them to their knees.

 

2. The Pre-Heresy Sons and Word Bearers I feel should be on here because as a Legion, they both sought to try and enlighten Humanity. The Sons wanted to do it through psychic awareness on a species-level. Due to the ripples Humanity had already created in the warp without being a fully psychic species, that path was wrought with various backlashes. The Word Bearers on another hand, sought to unite Humanity through religion in the divinity of the Emperor. That and they stayed behind to watch over the worlds they brought to compliance, in a similar manner to the Ultramarines. But due to the lack of numbers, they weren't able to keep pushing onward the way the Ultramarines could so as a result, their good intentions reared up and bit them in the buns.

 

WLK: Hmm, I have not read Promethean Sun and won't be able to until a reprint comes out. But ultimately, all of the Legions except the Word Bearers are noted to be efficient in one form or another. Although, what is the context of that novella? Is it a compliance or is it a warzone? And by warzone I mean are they fighting Traitors or xenos? I mean, at the end of the day the Salamanders are still Astartes. If they were on the battlefield with no civilians in the crossfire, I would expect them to act like traditional Astartes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Fair enough. Hmm, my list would be similar, but there would definitely be some notable differences.

 

 

Fair enough. Hmm, my list would be similar, but there would definitely be some notable differences.

 

 But as soon as the inhabitants refused to join the Imperium, the Wolves wasted no time bringing them to their knees.

 

 

All the legions Would have done so, even salamanders, those who did not take Pax imperialists are destroyed. Just someone making more attempts before the massacre.

 

Ravens never were humane, before or after heresys.  If it was necessary, they easily substituted the allies and endowed peace citizens. 

 

The same and with Thousand sons. They considered people as a material, to take at least sacrifices. 

 

By the way, yes, in  Promethean Sun  as it is told about the conflict with  Promethean credo and necessities sometimes to endow people for the sake of a fast victory. As a result the Volcano and Salamanders remain are correct the credo. But they as well as wolves respect only the strong. 

 

In stories and book of BL about heresy, like Wolf at the Door , wolves all the same appear "tolerant" (more or less) to the allies. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fair enough. Hmm, my list would be similar, but there would definitely be some notable differences.

 

1. Salamanders

 

2, Ultramarines

 

3. Word Bearers(pre-Heresy)

 

4. Thousand Sons(pre-Heresy)

 

5. Raven Guard

 

Notable differences

 

1. Space Wolves are removed from the list because from what I have seen of the 30k incarnation, they aren't exactly the friendly bunch they were in the Ragnar series. They are... I think "pragmatic" is the word I am looking for. Yes, when the 13th Company arrived at a world besieged by Dark Eldar, the Wolves were more than willing to help the human inhabitants. But as soon as the inhabitants refused to join the Imperium, the Wolves wasted no time bringing them to their knees.

 

2. The Pre-Heresy Sons and Word Bearers I feel should be on here because as a Legion, they both sought to try and enlighten Humanity. The Sons wanted to do it through psychic awareness on a species-level. Due to the ripples Humanity had already created in the warp without being a fully psychic species, that path was wrought with various backlashes. The Word Bearers on another hand, sought to unite Humanity through religion in the divinity of the Emperor. That and they stayed behind to watch over the worlds they brought to compliance, in a similar manner to the Ultramarines. But due to the lack of numbers, they weren't able to keep pushing onward the way the Ultramarines could so as a result, their good intentions reared up and bit them in the buns.

 

WLK: Hmm, I have not read Promethean Sun and won't be able to until a reprint comes out. But ultimately, all of the Legions except the Word Bearers are noted to be efficient in one form or another. Although, what is the context of that novella? Is it a compliance or is it a warzone? And by warzone I mean are they fighting Traitors or xenos? I mean, at the end of the day the Salamanders are still Astartes. If they were on the battlefield with no civilians in the crossfire, I would expect them to act like traditional Astartes.

From what I remember from reading my mate's copy, it was set on a world where the Sallies Iron Hands and Death Guard were deployed and tasked with taking over sections of the planet, comparing and contrasting the different legion's methodologies in dealing with the natives, with a lot from Vulcan's perspective......someone with a copy may be able to provide more detail

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Kol Saresk: From what I remember of Promethean Sun, (i dont own it, borrowed a friend's copy) it was the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Death Guard (all wth their Primarchs) purging eldar from a warzone. however, the eldar lived among human civilians. At first, the Salamanders purge both humans and xenos, but Vulkan becomes increasing disgusted at his actions and those of the Death Guard (who are being excessive in the purging of everything not Astartes) and has some sorta psychic connection with the Emperor.

it ends with Vulkan promising himself to find a better way. up to that point of the Great Crusade, he was a-purging just like everybody else.

 

Now I would discount the Word Bearers from being humane, due to their religious intolerance. Sure, they left behind places that praised the Emperor, but not after purging those who refused to change their religious beliefs. Like the real life Catholic Church, on crack and pcp, and a serious jonsing for conversion.

 

the Thousand Sons would strike off my list as well. While they are open to those with psychic talent, their (brief) interactions with standard humanity show them to be arrogant dismissive of them.

 

WLK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now I would discount the Word Bearers from being humane, due to their religious intolerance. Sure, they left behind places that praised the Emperor, but not after purging those who refused to change their religious beliefs. Like the real life Catholic Church, on crack and pcp, and a serious jonsing for conversion.

Hate to break it to you, but every Legion did that, with the minor difference that the XVII converted you to the worship of the God Emperor and everyone else turned you to the Atheist Imperial Truth (which was in fact a Big Fat Lie, but no matter).

 

At least the Word Bearers would hang around and fix all the burning wreckage they created, White Scars or Iron Hands just vaulted back into their Thunderhawks and rode off into the sunset.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Now I would discount the Word Bearers from being humane, due to their religious intolerance. Sure, they left behind places that praised the Emperor, but not after purging those who refused to change their religious beliefs. Like the real life Catholic Church, on crack and pcp, and a serious jonsing for conversion.

Hate to break it to you, but every Legion did that, with the minor difference that the XVII converted you to the worship of the God Emperor and everyone else turned you to the Atheist Imperial Truth (which was in fact a Big Fat Lie, but no matter).

 

At least the Word Bearers would hang around and fix all the burning wreckage they created, White Scars or Iron Hands just vaulted back into their Thunderhawks and rode off into the sunset.

 

I aint saying other Legions didnt do it, just pointing out the Word Bearers are not the warm fuzzy preaching Legion.

 

seriously, no legion is "humane". the closet would be the Ultramarines in my opinion.

 

WLK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fair enough. Hmm, my list would be similar, but there would definitely be some notable differences.

 

2, Ultramarines

 

Notable differences

 

1. Space Wolves are removed from the list because from what I have seen of the 30k incarnation, they aren't exactly the friendly bunch they were in the Ragnar series. They are... I think "pragmatic" is the word I am looking for. Yes, when the 13th Company arrived at a world besieged by Dark Eldar, the Wolves were more than willing to help the human inhabitants. But as soon as the inhabitants refused to join the Imperium, the Wolves wasted no time bringing them to their knees.

 

Given how UM quite cheerfully slaughtered a capital city of loyal imperial citizens in The First Heretic, I don't think they deserve to be on a list of 'friendly to humans' legions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Given how UM quite cheerfully slaughtered a capital city of loyal imperial citizens in The First Heretic, I don't think they deserve to be on a list of 'friendly to humans' legions.

 

I'll start here first. That is actually a point I myself used to throw around quite a bit. But then it was pointed out to me: The Ultramarines evacuated the capital city. From what we know, the only casualties of that event were those who rioted against the Ultramarines during the evacuation, which one could argue was the fault of the citizens.

 

30k Salamanders

40k Space Wolves (Honor's end,Armaggedon)

 

P.S.

TS

were only good with human's with PP, but they are willing to sacrifice

that chick ("aTS" novel) just get a glimpse to future....

 

 

Yes, that is very true. That's why they are lower on the list. Their goal is "Humanity", not "humans." But they are also more culture oriented and spent an indefinite amount of time learning from a Human Offspring civilization that most Legions would have just brought to compliance. So they get points for sparing a civilization, but at the same time they lose points for sacrificing an individual in the pursuit of trying to find out just what is going on with Horus and what will happen in the upcoming war where the Space Wolves were willing to sacrifice the very people they helped not even five minutes ago because the people said "No, we wish to remain free."

 

 

@Kol Saresk: From what I remember of Promethean Sun, (i dont own it, borrowed a friend's copy) it was the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Death Guard (all wth their Primarchs) purging eldar from a warzone. however, the eldar lived among human civilians. At first, the Salamanders purge both humans and xenos, but Vulkan becomes increasing disgusted at his actions and those of the Death Guard (who are being excessive in the purging of everything not Astartes) and has some sorta psychic connection with the Emperor.

it ends with Vulkan promising himself to find a better way. up to that point of the Great Crusade, he was a-purging just like everybody else.

 

Now I would discount the Word Bearers from being humane, due to their religious intolerance. Sure, they left behind places that praised the Emperor, but not after purging those who refused to change their religious beliefs. Like the real life Catholic Church, on crack and pcp, and a serious jonsing for conversion.

 

the Thousand Sons would strike off my list as well. While they are open to those with psychic talent, their (brief) interactions with standard humanity show them to be arrogant dismissive of them.

 

WLK

 

1. Hmm, so if anything, Promethean Sun could simply be the turning point for when the Salamanders started to become who they are now renowned for. Yes in the novel, they were as efficient as any other Astartes, but the novel is before the Heresy so there was definitely room for change between Sun and Istvaan.

 

2. That is again true, that's why I specified a specific era. This was the era in which they were converting worlds as much as bringing them into Compliance. Much like the Medieval Catholic Church, if they could find a way to incorporate the "pagan" religious rites into the Lectitio Divinatus, they did. In 40k, these probably took the form of Candlemass and Sanguinius Day, instead of Christmas and Good Friday respectively. But in the Word Bearers' case, the fact that the Emperor came to Monarchia and told them to wage war more often against non-Compliant human worlds I think speaks volumes about the differences between the two religions.

 

3. Actually from what we see of their treatment of an "inferior" human civilization with no psychics whatsoever at the beginning of ATS, I do have to disagree with that. Now, later on in the book during the Edict, since we only see psykers from other Legions rising in defense of the Sons while everyone else is persecuting them, there is that overwhelming feeling that psykers are being discriminated against and it is by "everyone else." From there comes the usual "These fools know not what they are denying themselves."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you don't class being humane as being the same as human then the Alpha Legion have a case as they work most closely with human operatives. Sure they use them as assets but by working so closely with them they interact, understand and sometimes act as human as any Legion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.