SnorriSnorrison Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Are there any rumors in the web that give a little more insight into the vanilla variant of the Stormraven? Although since the 'skies of blood' rule was replaced by a universal 'skies of fury' rule I don't expect the Vanilla Raven to greatly differ from ours. Vanillastrike missiles becoming S8 AP1 would be quite a blow... Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Stormstrike Missiles I believe will be the same. BTW IG Vendettas and Valkyries can still get Outflank with Veterans inside as it will be a dedicated transport Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Sama, I stand to be corrected, but The valks are fast attack - not dedicated transports - so no go there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 You are correct there! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Explain to me how you read the faq to let us still use it? Dont stress about the FAQ Gondow, that's simple poor wording- an oversight, pure and simple. They have an entire new book, with a section dedicated to the BA Storm Raven specifically, theyre not going to purposely have a faq to not allow it on the same day they release said book. On a small side note regarding this.... As mod on this forum, I will not, even for a second, entertain the banal, misguided and completely infuriating notion that this is how the rule is suggested to be played. If people want to joke about the implication for "lolsies" or for the simple "academics" of the argument- go ahead. If people want to seriously entertain the notion that GW intends for BA to not have ravens because of that poor wording, or they intend imposing or enforcing it anyway or on any members in this forum, then they can move along to another BA forum that supports rampant douchebaggery and other interactions that are completely void of social empathy and other basic social skills . It is obvious to the point of pain what is intended. Its not an issue at all. The FAQ says you can use vehicles in your codex. The raven is in our codex. The next sentence just adds its legality to templars and codex marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 "With the exception of..." makes it an issue. It's REALLY badly worded Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 It says you can use vehicles in your codex. My codex lists the storm raven. Issue over. I just don't see this one at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 So, we share one unit that wasn't even unique to us anyway and it's all doom and gloom? Did the other marines get Baals? Fast rhino chassis? Can they take assault marines as troops? Can they spam AV13 or Land Raiders? Did C:SM get Libby Dreads? All the complaining about this is much ado about nothing. I wish we'd been given the talon as well, but let's all avoid sounding like a pack of reactionary BOLS-trolls. This is supposed to be the big kid message board, no? only out of all the stuff you listed only the SR was actualy good , specialy when others didnt have it . now when everyone can have a SR , it is no longer so awesome . worse thing , because of the slot it ended in , the sm can now build a better flyer list then BAs. Fast rhinos dont do much when you cant charge out of static rhinos and every rhino can move 18 anyway. If someone wants RAS class troops he can play ultra grit GH ,which are kind of a better . Dreads are dead as dead can be in 6th etc etc. ah and that FAQ wording , they never learn . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I disagree with you on almost every point. Based on what you say, you should already have been playing GKs anyway (they had the "only good unit" we had way before now) so why do you care what Blood Angels do or don't have? We still have tons on unique units, and if you think they all suck, you're probably in the wrong subforum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokhar Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Pretty sure he was speaking from a competitive standpoint. We have interesting, distinct units, and the ones you mentioned can be fun to play. But if you want to go to a tournament, almost nothing on that list you wrote makes the cut. They're not competitive choices. The Stormraven is, and it gave us an edge other codexes didn't have, in an edition where our 'dex has taken some hits. We just lost that advantage over other people--not only with Marines just having access, but because every army that was taking Codex Marines allies anyway (and didn't want to use BA) now gets the Stormraven as well. So it didn't actively hurt Blood Angels, but it boosted the competitiveness of everyone else without giving us anything in return. So we took a relative step backwards, even if we didn't lose anything. Its probably a good thing for overall game balance (though Marine flyer-spam could now become a thing), but it doesn't make it not be somewhat disappointing as a BA player. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Maybe I'm the only one to notice, then, but BAs weren't exactly tearing up the competitive scene before this, either. No matter who can take a Raven, expecting to win BAO or Nova or whatever with BAs was already wishful thinking. Also, you're seriously underrating Baals. They're the biggest reason I haven't just switched to C:SM at this point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 BA were getting to top tables at Nova in 5th. GK were just better at Razorspam. There was never a really interesting build that appeared with BA in 5th that caused a meta shift or was a hard counter to much else. The problem with BA is their Troops are now paying premium points for things which are no longer as good as they were. And BA were always a jack of all trades movement centric codex. Now they are mediocre of all trades movement centric codex. And their Troops bave bolt pistols. Which suck :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokhar Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Sama nailed it. In 5th, BA were a top 4 codex and extremely competitive. In 6th we took an overall step back (in my opinion, though not a huge one), but we retained one of the top 4 flyers in the game as our sole property (BA Stormraven, Vendetta, Night Scythe, Heldrake), with the GK Raven being in the second tier of quality flyers by virtue of its limited missiles. And many GK builds couldn't run the Raven as efficiently or practically. Codex Marines can probably do so better than Grey Knights, and they already have a flyer of their own. If they get the good missiles, I'll be irked. If they're more GK-esque with their missile stats, it won't be as dramatic an effect for Codex Marines, though Marine Flyer Spam is now a potential list (and could be annoying and one-dimensional as Necron FlyerWing). Big bump for everyone that allies in Marines though, as it gives them access to two flyers that at worst, are at least servicable, to outright good. Giving everyone flyer access helps balance the overall meta, but it hurt one of our strong competitive edges of having a flyer that is strong at killing infantry, and absolutely devastating against tanks and other flyers. Given that BA have taken various hits in their competitiveness in 6th, another is not fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 C:SM can already take Thunderfires. Throw in Storm Ravens and they are pretty fearsome with firepower. Combat Tactics with ATSKNF is godlike. And Null Zone is really useful against Daemons and Wraiths. It's a great buff for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3306987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Agree with Sokhar and SamNagol, Ravens and codex space marines are the outcome now GW realise they overpowered demons with a mistake of a white dwarf update for them. The answer is to give smurfs the stormraven flyer to take with a null zone libby and bone demon flamer screamer spam. They will also give their favoured blue guys a valid flyer to combat the shiny necrons. No love for space wolves though. Ahh well whatever ... I always knew they would spread the goodness that is Ravens around in 6th its too good not to do that. I am pretty tired can someone tell me do we still get skies of blood or its equivalent? I really really like dropping troops on objectives with that rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3307048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 So, we share one unit that wasn't even unique to us anyway and it's all doom and gloom? Did the other marines get Baals? Fast rhino chassis? Can they take assault marines as troops? Can they spam AV13 or Land Raiders? Did C:SM get Libby Dreads? All the complaining about this is much ado about nothing. I wish we'd been given the talon as well, but let's all avoid sounding like a pack of reactionary BOLS-trolls. This is supposed to be the big kid message board, no? Quoted for the truth. Sokhar also makes a valid point that allowing Ravens in C:SM has created a more balanced competitive playing field. How can that be seen as a bad thing? Why isn't this levelling out being seen as a good thing? Afterall, i imagine this would create a little more diversity in army lists seen in competitive play. And for those decrying Ravens in C:SM on the grounds that it is "Unique to BA", look at the fluff of the SR in your own codex. "that the Adeptus Mechanicus refused to begin mass-production until they assured themselves that the schematics were hale, untainted and utterly in keeping with the strictures and covenants of the Machine God...Who can say where the truth of the Storm raven's provenance lies, for the Imperium's bureaucracy is as labyrinthine as it is petty. It is just as believable that shadow-politics and administrative inertia are behind the Storm raven's belated introduction into the armies of Mankind as it is that the delay was caused only by diligence on the part of the Adeptus Mechanicus." pg 38, C:BA This indicates that for some reason the BA got it second (first being the GK) but it's release to other chapters was inevitable. You didn't seriously expect them to keep the Stormraven exclusive the BA and GK forever, did you? As for why not SW and DA, last I checked SW are still a powerhouse army and the new DA just got a codex. I imagine it'll be awhile before C:SM get a 6th ed codex so this is their way to tide us over and bring us into 6th ed. I'd humbly submit that yours is not the only chapter whose method of war revolves around mobility and "death from above". Other chapters, (e.g. Hawk Lords and Raven Guard) also excell at these methods of warfare, why wouldn't they want the Stormraven in their arsenal? why shouldn't they have the Stormraven in their arsenal? Because it's "unique" to BA? This is clearly not the case, the fluff in your codex will tell you otherwise. Some might argue that going by that definition a White Scar player should be able to take Baals for their speed, but i would disagree by saying that this shouldn't happen because Baals have always been and should always remain a Blood Angel tank. In conclusion, i'd ask only that you think about it. In the end it's not as bad as some here make it out to be. You talk about BA being one of the "top armies" at X tournament. The hard truth is that unless you actually play there and you are among the top players there, this change shouldn't matter too much to you because you and the army you are playing (i.e. your own list) is not in that top bracket anyhow. So chill out :) Sy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3307077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 In conclusion, i'd ask only that you think about it. In the end it's not as bad as some here make it out to be. You talk about BA being one of the "top armies" at X tournament. The hard truth is that unless you actually play there and you are among the top players there, this change shouldn't matter too much to you because you and the army you are playing (i.e. your own list) is not in that top bracket anyhow. So chill out Sy I think this is no longer the real issue here. We all knew that this was bound to happen one day, and I for one, am fine with it. I'm not jumping in the air, breaking a brick wall and shouting out 'OH YEAH', but you know. What really me off is the way GW enforced the new flyer rules. Expecting people to buy an otherwise useless book if the only stuff they might need from it is written on maybe 2 pages is ridiculous. And the mindless FAQ-ing of the 'Skies of Fury' rule. It's stupid, that's all. Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3307093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 In conclusion, i'd ask only that you think about it. In the end it's not as bad as some here make it out to be. You talk about BA being one of the "top armies" at X tournament. The hard truth is that unless you actually play there and you are among the top players there, this change shouldn't matter too much to you because you and the army you are playing (i.e. your own list) is not in that top bracket anyhow. So chill out Sy I think this is no longer the real issue here. We all knew that this was bound to happen one day, and I for one, am fine with it. I'm not jumping in the air, breaking a brick wall and shouting out 'OH YEAH', but you know. What really me off is the way GW enforced the new flyer rules. Expecting people to buy an otherwise useless book if the only stuff they might need from it is written on maybe 2 pages is ridiculous. And the mindless FAQ-ing of the 'Skies of Fury' rule. It's stupid, that's all. Snorri Yeah, i agree with that, the book does strike me as a cheeky way to make some money. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3307114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 What really sucks and rubs it in is that this book was rolled out within two months of a new edition rulebook. How could these rules NOT be included in the rulebook? This is just outrageous. Pure bull:cuss. I'm out of this hobby as a game. I have a crapton of models to paint from pre-2010 anyway, I'll just paint my kits and models for fun and watch GW crash and burn, hopefully. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3307124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I am going to download a file shared copy, I have plenty of money for modelling I could buy their book but I wont. I already bought the models have assembled and painted them I just want to know how they work. GW wont get that money and they dont deserve it either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3307126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Keep things productive here please gents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3307153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodsurfer Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I agree wholeheartedly with most of the people on this forum in that I believe we all saw the Raven going vanilla at some point, there was just no way that wasn't going to happen. The thing that made the Raven unique FOR us, not TO us, were rules like Skies of Blood. People who readily make use of said rule are SOL because GW just randomly decided we shouldn't have the rule is a waste and improperly thought out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3307178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mysteriousmaskedmystery Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 "With the exception of..." makes it an issue. It's REALLY badly worded it's saying that everyone is limited to the units, and specifically the flyers in your codex, no others, with the exception that the storm raven and storm talon are now shared to C:SM and C:BT via the new flyer tax.. i'm sorry, flyer... expansion? or whatever you want to call it. also the question asked is whether all SM chapters get all the vehicles or flyers listed under the SM heading in the new book, but it points out that they don't, except for the SR and ST going to both C:SM and C:BT, and they are the only other chapters to get those units besides the ones who have them in their codexes already. also, if C:BA doesn't get the SR anymore, why did they FAQ the SR? it's badly worded, but not so badly worded that you could actually make a credible argument that either BA or GK can't use them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3307186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yak Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Brothers Brothers Brothers.... What is the problem here? I see a good few people are getting angry because the Storm Raven is being shared out. Are we not united in our battle against the traitors and xenos filth? Jealousy and rivalry played a huge role in the Horus Heresy, did it not? I see many have raised the point that this will create flyer spam in Codex Space Marine lists (3 talons, 3 ravens). All I can say is that anyone who spams for victory will find ways to spam regardless (allies etc). A few have moaned about Ward and his love for Ultramarines. Remember the codex covers tons of chapters and the Storm Raven could be seen as fluffy for Raven Guard, White Scars and their successors. I cant really see this detracting from your uniqueness. You still have a very different codex from us, as well as unique units with a distinct combat focus. Since when have the Blood Angels worried about what other chapters get up to. You do your thing and enjoy doing it. What would Dante say if he heard that people were 'through with Blood Angels' because of this news? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3307245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokhar Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 What would Dante say if he heard that people were 'through with Blood Angels' because of this news? He'd probably swing his axe in (Black) rage, but we'd all have ample time to escape because GW nerfed him down to I1 before giving every 6th ed codex someone that swings at initiative with AP2. :eyeroll: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270465-storm-raven-going-vanilla/page/3/#findComment-3307256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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