Storm Raven Going Vanilla?

[Makkeru]

Can someone explain why the Skies of Fury change is so much worse than Skies of Blood? I'm not as familiar with 6th edition, and even while looking at the BA codex, the FAQ and the BRB, I'm still not seeing what is so terrible.

With Skies of Blood your JP troops could jump out of the SR without taking a Dangerous Terrain test (if they didnt land in Dangerous Terrain that is).

[Captain Idaho]

But how much of a big deal is it really? I've never seen anyone use that move, and even if they did, BA get to use Descent of Angels to reduce the chance of scatter and therefore lower the chance of losing models to dangerous terrain tests.

[Brother Xeones]

But how much of a big deal is it really? I've never seen anyone use that move, and even if they did, BA get to use Descent of Angels to reduce the chance of scatter and therefore lower the chance of losing models to dangerous terrain tests.

I agree. But also, couldn't the argument be made that BAs don't actually lose this feature --just that the interaction between DoA and the new rule is no longer explicitely mentioned within the rule itself?

 

Ah wait, I see it now. If you scatter AT ALL you take a test so DoA does you no good since scattering D6 rather than 2D6 still forces you to take the tests. Well, for me a locator beacon would still solve my issues as I'd be more likely to dump units directly behind the raven anyway rather than halfway through the SR's path.

[Captain Idaho]

Descent of Angels helps prevent total destruction, whilst the basic rules require you to roll a 1 then fail a save, at least.

 

I'm liking the sneaky use of a Locator beacon though!

[latch66]

When I first heard about it (quite some time ago) it didn't sit well with me.

 

But, once I took another look at it, I decided it really didn't need to be so big a deal. 

 

From the Standpoint if I was involved with the decision making at GW, I can't argue it makes sense.  The Stormraven does not belong to just BA and GK in the fluff.  It was just a good business decision (regardless of how it would be perseved by some players) to make a model with the tooling as explensive as the Stormraven had to be; available to more customers.  Yes, they could always have been taken as allies, but that same argument can be used against any pure BA player as well.  We can take SW, DA, IG or any number of allies to help bolster our forces.

 

This decision will not make me stop playing BA, nor will I stop building the two Stormraven's I received during the Holidays (Unfortunately I have several projects on the table at the moment, but I will get them done soon).

 

Does the decision still burn a little at times?  Yes it does.  When I was discussing this with my oldest Son (who playes IG, C:SM, CSM and Tau) he had trouble looking at it from my point of view (particularly since he was pumped about getting the Stormraven for his C:SM).  So I gave him this little annalogy:

 

How would you feel if suddenly one of your favorite/most competitive (insert vehicle/independent character here) units was suddenly made officially available (non-allied) to several of the armies you could be playing against?

 

He then understood my point.  Not that my point was necessarily right/fair/fit within the fluff/good.  But he understood my point.

 

 

This too shall pass.  I'll still play BA, still field my Assault Squads, Baal Pred's, DC, Mephiston, Furioso's and Stormraven's (once built).

[Captain Idaho]

So I gave him this little annalogy:

 

How would you feel if suddenly one of your favorite/most competitive (insert vehicle/independent character here) units was suddenly made officially available (non-allied) to several of the armies you could be playing against?

 

Yeah, I'd be really angry if another army got my favourite army's Sternguard, Storm Shield improvement and superior AV13 Dreadnoughts, all wrapped up with the same vehicles only faster for dirt cheap, an additional scoring unit, better assault troops and cheaper Devastators, better Psychic powers, Apothecaries etc.

 

Come on guys, has everyone forgotten the differences between BA and other Codex books? People are talking as if the Stormraven was the only unit BA had to themselves.

 

I think a Codex Space Marines player shouldn't begrudge sharing Sternguard, and you'd not appreciate hearing said Space Marines players voicing their disappointment with such a thing (rightfully so).

[SnorriSnorrison]

So I gave him this little annalogy:

How would you feel if suddenly one of your favorite/most competitive (insert vehicle/independent character here) units was suddenly made officially available (non-allied) to several of the armies you could be playing against?

Yeah, I'd be really angry if another army got my favourite army's Sternguard, Storm Shield improvement and superior AV13 Dreadnoughts, all wrapped up with the same vehicles only faster for dirt cheap, an additional scoring unit, better assault troops and cheaper Devastators, better Psychic powers, Apothecaries etc.

Come on guys, has everyone forgotten the differences between BA and other Codex books? People are talking as if the Stormraven was the only unit BA had to themselves.

I think a Codex Space Marines player shouldn't begrudge sharing Sternguard, and you'd not appreciate hearing said Space Marines players voicing their disappointment with such a thing (rightfully so).

Well, you can certainly keep the Sternguard. Very fitting for Chapters like Crimson Fists, Ultramarines and Imperial Fists(the list continues...) but not very fitting for Blood Angels. Back in the day all we needed were Veteran Assault Squads, which were made available to every chapter as their offspring, Vanguards.

Well, the rest of the list...most of that was already available to Blood Angels since the 3rd edition codex. We pay heavily for the overcharged engines, Sanguinary Priests, Furioso Dreadnoughts(oh, where did that Ironclad got his second fist from? ) and last but not least better assault troops. So I'm not sure why you're comparing this with the Stormraven-issue...I'm quite sure everyone was prepared this day would come, and the 'Raven was never BA only from the beginning. After the dust has settled, I for one still don't hold grudges against GW or other marine players because of this. It's the way GW deals it out that seems a bit cheeky.

Snorri

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm. Yet BA have been the stronger list than Codex Marines without taking into account Stormravens.

 

Anyway, BA aren't defined by the Stormraven. It's not an issue really, as it doesn't even affect BA i.e. you can still continue to be BA as normal.

[Morticon]

I find the palpable sense of entitlement regarding the Raven's opening up incredibly disconcerting. 

 

We dont own or have say in the IP, design or creation of these models.  They are not ours in any way beyond us having a copy of one, which we are free to use in any way we see fit - the majority of whom use them in according to what the rulebook says. We do not have ownership or entitlement of the concept and how it is used on any level. 

 

Who are we to feel we have the right to get aggro at GW for making a decision (well within their rights of their business) to open it up to SM? You don't have to like it.  But understanding and being able to elocute WHY you dont like the raven being a part of SMs may highlight issues that are entirely unrelated to GW or the game.

 

GW have made a shocking blunder here in their handling of a compendium that could have, and for all intents and purposes should have, been a free PDF.   I have no qualm, nor debate about this.  They could have done this FANTASTICALLY.  As noted earlier, the fact they have changed costs on the fly is GREAT.  It is a step in the right direction. I hope they continue doing this.   However, the business and the corporate decisions and manner in which it was done is demonstrative of a typical cold, multinational beating their client base for everything it is worth. 

 

Yet, allowing the base army from which we are drawn access to a something like the Storm Raven was not only an inevitability and expectation among many, it was a smart business wise.  Us taking issue with that aspect of this compendium release is simple petulance in my view.

[latch66]

So I gave him this little annalogy:

How would you feel if suddenly one of your favorite/most competitive (insert vehicle/independent character here) units was suddenly made officially available (non-allied) to several of the armies you could be playing against?

Yeah, I'd be really angry if another army got my favourite army's Sternguard, Storm Shield improvement and superior AV13 Dreadnoughts, all wrapped up with the same vehicles only faster for dirt cheap, an additional scoring unit, better assault troops and cheaper Devastators, better Psychic powers, Apothecaries etc.

Come on guys, has everyone forgotten the differences between BA and other Codex books? People are talking as if the Stormraven was the only unit BA had to themselves.

I think a Codex Space Marines player shouldn't begrudge sharing Sternguard, and you'd not appreciate hearing said Space Marines players voicing their disappointment with such a thing (rightfully so).

I appologize, I don't think I was clear.

I was not trying to stir the pot. My intent was actually very far from it.

All I was trying to communicate is I can see why some player's would be upset by this happening and how other's would be exicted about the change. If I was a C:SM or BT player, I would be totally stoked by this change. But, as a BA player, not so much. I was only trying to convey how both sides could view this issue and how I had to convey the issue to my Son (who litterally was on the opposite side of the gaming table from me).

BA still has lots to offer. Fast vehicles, Furiosos and Stormraven's just to mention a few (but not the only ones).

I am still a BA player and am content to remain so.

Hopefully this clarifys things.

[Pathstrider]

Just in case anyone was taking it calmly, White Dwarf daily posts a BA storm talon with a cheery "Oh, but we know that Blood Angels can't take it...."

 

m3050168a_9XL.jpg

[Captain Idaho]

@ latch66:

 

It's a great philosophy my friend. Empathy is the only way forward.

 

 

I find the palpable sense of entitlement regarding the Raven's opening up incredibly disconcerting. 

 

We dont own or have say in the IP, design or creation of these models.  They are not ours in any way beyond us having a copy of one, which we are free to use in any way we see fit - the majority of whom use them in according to what the rulebook says. We do not have ownership or entitlement of the concept and how it is used on any level. 

 

Who are we to feel we have the right to get aggro at GW for making a decision (well within their rights of their business) to open it up to SM? You don't have to like it.  But understanding and being able to elocute WHY you dont like the raven being a part of SMs may highlight issues that are entirely unrelated to GW or the game.

 

GW have made a shocking blunder here in their handling of a compendium that could have, and for all intents and purposes should have, been a free PDF.   I have no qualm, nor debate about this.  They could have done this FANTASTICALLY.  As noted earlier, the fact they have changed costs on the fly is GREAT.  It is a step in the right direction. I hope they continue doing this.   However, the business and the corporate decisions and manner in which it was done is demonstrative of a typical cold, multinational beating their client base for everything it is worth. 

 

Yet, allowing the base army from which we are drawn access to a something like the Storm Raven was not only an inevitability and expectation among many, it was a smart business wise.  Us taking issue with that aspect of this compendium release is simple petulance in my view.

 

100% agree with all of this.

[Gumo9]

I don't mind the Stormraven being fielded by other Chapters. My objection is that we don't get anything in return, like many others have said.

 

Additional unique rules for the BA version would have been nice, perhaps a reduction in points or further wargear options. It is the fact that the vanilla version has cheaper options and another flyer in their armoury that we cannot field - that is the part that gets under my skin.

 

I also have a vanilladex army (Raptors Chapter) but my enthusiasm for them getting the SR is definately blunted by my BA's "master of the skies" status being relegated as others can now field 6 fliers while the best we can rustle up is three.

 

GW's quip about us not being able to take Stormtalons was poorly timed too. I saw the nice pic in BA colours and got excited... Only to read the text and be disappointed.

 

Just my 2 penneth

 

G

[fivepointedstar]

Seems Matt Ward's blue bellied babies got there wishes granted, while we get treated like unwanted red-headed step children ( <= American saying)

[Spagunk]

I don't mind the Stormraven being fielded by other Chapters. My objection is that we don't get anything in return, like many others have said.

 

Additional unique rules for the BA version would have been nice, perhaps a reduction in points or further wargear options. It is the fact that the vanilla version has cheaper options and another flyer in their armoury that we cannot field - that is the part that gets under my skin.

 

I also have a vanilladex army (Raptors Chapter) but my enthusiasm for them getting the SR is definately blunted by my BA's "master of the skies" status being relegated as others can now field 6 fliers while the best we can rustle up is three.

 

GW's quip about us not being able to take Stormtalons was poorly timed too. I saw the nice pic in BA colours and got excited... Only to read the text and be disappointed.

 

Just my 2 penneth

 

G

 

Gumo sums up my opinion exactly. It's not that I am mad the unit was opened up, it was that we get nothing in return and we also have zero need to buy a book about air superiority (which is explicitly stated in our codex as being our fortee is it not?). Besides, the pattern seems to be two different types of aircraft per codex (D.A. being the exception unless you count land speeders) which we likely will not see unless we magically survive the "dark times" and get another codex.

[Pathstrider]

Judging by the reports from people who have the book, the stormraven section applies to BA too - so we do get the points break on extra armour/beacons.

 

On the downside, given they didn't include that in our errata, we do need to buy the darn book....

[Captain Idaho]

Only if someone asks you to prove you bought it. I make lists before I attend events and local gaming stores and when playing I play from memory so actually owning the books isn't always necessary ;)

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Seems Matt Ward's blue bellied babies got there wishes granted, while we get treated like unwanted red-headed step children ( <= American saying)

 

Take a trip to the dark side and revel in never having to take a morale check again (or rerolling if that's your thing, you strange, strange man). :P

[Gumo9]

So... Have any BA players got the book yet?

 

Despite all the predicted doom and gloom, what is the reality do you think?

 

G

[latch66]

So... Have any BA players got the book yet?

 

Despite all the predicted doom and gloom, what is the reality do you think?

 

G

 

I totally agree.  I tried to pick up one of the books, but GW was sold out already and I couldn't place it on backorder.

 

Since two of my Sons and I play, I will be picking up the book (unfortunately, I am the only BA player of all three of us).

 

 

The greatest potential change I can see at the moment will probably be centered on what I will need to do to counter the units added by the new/updated rules that I'll be facing.

[Robbie1984]

This is copied from another forum:

 

The back cover is just a load of pictures of the flyers for sale.



Page 5 - 20: "The Battle of Cadrim" - This looks like a slightly
extended version of the section in White Dwarf when the storm talon came
out. It includes the same pictures of the White Scars armies etc.



Page 23 - 29: Air War Missions.



Mission 1: Deadly Bridgehead: Space Marines with Necron allies, against Orks.

Mission 2: Scramble; Space Marines V Orks

Mission 3: Aerial Assault: Necrons V orks with Space Marine allies

Mission 4: Death from the Skies: Necrons V Marines



Page 32 - 40: Burning Skies - Looks like a reprint of the Crusade of Fire rules



Page 40 - 55: Gallery pictures



Now we're coming to the important bit



Page 56: StormRaven Beastiary: It includes the FAQ updates. EG, a
Dreadnaught taking s10 hits if the flyer explodes and is zooming. The
important note is Blood Angels and Grey Knights armies use the rules
printed here though their storm ravens have additional wargear options
and rules - see the army list for details. Also, new piece of artwork. An ultrasmurf storm raven.



Page 57: Storm Talon: Still 2 HP. It now has the Strafing Run rules.
Type (Flyer, Hover). Escort craft rules looks to be clarified to avoid
anything BS-ey. Can't escort anything using Outflank / Deepstriking.
Plus other stuff. NO supersonic rules



Page 58: Valkyrie/Vendetta: Exactly the same as the IG codex, but with
HP's added in - Same as rulebook. Also the Grav Chute Insertion rules
have been updated with the FAQ rules



Page 59: VoidRaven/Razorwing: I'm assuming these are the same? Razorwing
Armour 10, VoidRaven Armour 11. Night Vision/Supersonic rules



Page 60: DoomScythe: Looks the same as before

Page 61: NightScythe: Broadly the same as before. They clarify the
embarked unit doesn't take damage when destroyed. Also they enter
through normal reserves? No mention of rembarking on a night scythe...
However. "If a night scythe has moved more than 24", the disembarking unit may only fire snap shots."



Page 62: Dakkajet: No Hover. However, Strafing run, supersonic. Fighta
Ace upgrade has been renamed to 'flyboss' - it basically gives him
Strafing Run against things you don't get strafing run against.... Aside
from that, same as before.



Page 63: Burna Bomber, Blitza Bomber: Seems the same as before, with obvious changes. No hover. Supersonic, waaagh plane! Points costs and upgrades are identical to White Dwarf.



Page 64: Wargear. A burna bomb is a bomb... Death Ray looks like it has
rules changes... It hurts friendly models too. It can't hurt zooming
flyers or flying monstrous creatures.



Page 65: Wargear. Everything looks the same.



Page 66: StormStrike Missiles: I dunno what to say, they actually seem to kick rear end... S8, AP2, concussive...



Page 68: Army List:

Storm Raven: Heavy Support: Yup, marines and templars get storm raven.
Nothing for space puppies. Grey Knights and Blood Angels don't get
stormstrike missiles. The rest looks broadly similar

Storm Talon: Marines/Black Templars only (typical). Fast Attack. A lot
cheaper in points. The most expensive version is 10 points cheaper than
before.



Page 69: Army List:

Valkyrie And Vendetta: Identical to earlier rules



Page 70:

Razorwing, Voidraven, Doom Scythe, Night Scythe:

I think these are identical to their normal rules



Page 71: The Ork Flyers: In all honesty, they seem the same as the white
dwarf. I think someone with more of an ork brain will need to pick out
the diffferences.



Page 72: Summary Page.



------------------



So, there you go. That's what your getting for your £20, and that's what the FLGS' are losing out on.



Edit: So, in summary, it seems only Black Templars and Codex Marines players really need to buy it.

[Gumo9]

Thanks for the heads up Robbie.

 

So everyone, any comments?

 

G

[Blindhamster]

sounds to me like it's probably a worthless purchase to any blood angel player unless you REALLY want to do flyer specific scenarios.

 

I do begrudge the decision to say there are 'new bestiary and army list entries for ...Blood Angels....' When that clearly isn't the case as its just reprinted rules for the same vehicle.

[Leksington]

On the bright side, by getting the SR first, BA players were able to get the model for about $15 cheaper than C:SM and C:BT players.

[Sir Blayse]

So as a BA, BT, and Ultramarine player I now have to decide who needs the Stormraven more.  I'm tempted to give them to my Templars, since they are really lacking and could use something to replace the rhinos.   If I did use them for my Ultra's, then it would be just to deal with other flyers and I can do that with the Talon. 

 

I would of hoped that BA could keep their special rule for using the JP's to leave the bird.