Leman Russ & the Imperial Guard

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

I have been wondering about the main battle tank of the imperial guard: the Leman Russ. How much contact and influence did Russ have in the Imperial Guard. His name is the only one of all the Primarchs used with such frequency. There are some quotes of his describing the merits of courage amongst the guard. I have also read that in some "waaay back fluff" he was described as one of the first generals of the Imperial Guard ( even before he was known or attributed as the primarch of the SW).

 

 

I also wonder about the next tale starring Russ & the Vilkja Fenrika in the Horus Heresy series. Until now we have no idea how he responded to Horus actual betrayal. Storywise the wolves have been left waaay out of the loop. I would be keen to hear your thoughts

[Raulmichile]

There are lots and lots of quotes attributed to Leman Russ coming back from 1st Ed, when he was "just" a very succesful and famous imperial commander in charge of founding the space wolves chapter.  In those days he was a sort of military philosopher/learned individual that used to write a lot and an IG tank design was given his name to honour him.  A couple of years later, his name was used to create the primarch we know now once the turn in fluff took place. 

 

Some effort has been made so far in trying to "mesh" the old "thinker and philosopher" character and the new demi-god primarch of today but it is something GW has never tried fully to cope.  Instead, old canon tends to be discarded.

 

I don't think we will see a full book dedicated to the Wolves in the Heresy as after Prospero they were not part of the main events of the war anymore.  In any case, maybe the part in which the Wolves and the White Scars are ambushed by the Alpha Legion when they try to go back to Terra can be fleshed out in a novel but I think it will be more from the perspective of the Scars than from the Wolves.

[Gondlir the Wandbearer]

I recall a blurb somewhere from around the time of the old IA articles that the reason the tank is named after Leman Russ is because he rediscovered/reclaimed the SCT that builds the thing.

 

Also, what do you mean, the Wolves took no more part in the Heresy? Old background has Russ and Johnson together speeding to Terra to relieve the siege; the imminent arrival of his two closest competitors (victorywise) and their Legions is what forced Horus into his final gambit of lowering his shields to lure the Emperor on board. While this might be kind of boring to describe directly, it's certainly worth a mention, at least.

 

(Ironically, this means that however fast they went, they could have never made it to Terra in time to save the Emperor.)

 

Also, the Alpha Legion heads out to troll the Ultramarines, and the White Scars are present as defenders during the Siege.

[Marshall Bretton]

i love how every legion that was not at terra say that it was their imminent arrival that forced horus to dual the emperor hehe

 

i think it is one of those that has several different bits of lore about it, none of which are particularly in depth

it might get cannonised some time in the near future

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I recall the fluff stating that Russ discovered the tank platform... someone correct me if I'm wrong/fill in my missing information

[Gondlir the Wandbearer]

Actually, although old DA codices merely state that Johnson and Russ sped towards earth only to arrive too late, the old IA Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus/Black Legion article and the description of the siege of the Imperial Palace in the same White Dwarf flat-out state that it was the DA and SW combined.

The various Ultramarine codices, OTOH, have always stated that the UM were too far removed to the galactic south to have any direct influence on events back on Terra until after the siege the UM, as basically the only untouched loyalist legion took charge in the Scouring.

 

I'm sure the BL and their horrible HH series will for no apparent reason throw all this established, sensible background out the window in favour of the Ultramarines, though. 

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

wasnt it the wolves who took on the alpha legion so that the white scars could get to terra?

[Gondlir the Wandbearer]

Not in any background that I'm aware of, though it's entirely possible the HH series decided to randomly throw that in instead of decades-old established fluff.

(I vehemently dislike the series, so haven't been keeping up with what happens in it.)

[Vash113]

i love how every legion that was not at terra say that it was their imminent arrival that forced horus to dual the emperor hehe

 

Well that's the fluff, and it's not every Legion either, the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were the first to arrive, followed shortly by the Ultramarines. The Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard were busy elsewhere or too under strength to participate.

 

In any case there are some stories about what happened while the DA and SW were en-route to Terra that would easily make for HH novel material.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Not in any background that I'm aware of, though it's entirely possible the HH series decided to randomly throw that in instead of decades-old established fluff.

(I vehemently dislike the series, so haven't been keeping up with what happens in it.)

 

Thats listed in the Collected Visions books. Russ and the Wolves are ordered by DOrn to lead the Alpha Legions away from Terra, and allow the White Scars to make haste.

 

WLK

[Gondlir the Wandbearer]

Thats listed in the Collected Visions books. Russ and the Wolves are ordered by DOrn to lead the Alpha Legions away from Terra, and allow the White Scars to make haste.

 

WLK

 

See, that's one of the things I hate about the HH series - it completely flies in the face of established fluff (Russ is with Johnson, and the two together speed towards Terra, while the Alpha Legion moves to keep the UM away from Terra because they have a grudge with Guilliman), and goes against the primarch's personality as well. Russ being ordered around by anyone except the Emperor and pre-Heresy Horus? I don't think so. Even Guilliman with over 50% of all Space Marines under his banner after the Emperor died didn't manage that one.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

Thats listed in the Collected Visions books. Russ and the Wolves are ordered by DOrn to lead the Alpha Legions away from Terra, and allow the White Scars to make haste.

 

WLK

 

See, that's one of the things I hate about the HH series - it completely flies in the face of established fluff (Russ is with Johnson, and the two together speed towards Terra, while the Alpha Legion moves to keep the UM away from Terra because they have a grudge with Guilliman), and goes against the primarch's personality as well. Russ being ordered around by anyone except the Emperor and pre-Heresy Horus? I don't think so. Even Guilliman with over 50% of all Space Marines under his banner after the Emperor died didn't manage that one.

Well, the Heresy is a 7 year long event.

 

also, the Wolves are aided in fighting off the Alpha Legion with help from an unexpected ally, who hasnt been named. Who's to say this wasnt the point where the Wolves and Dark Angels met up and made their push to Terra.

More importantly, it wasnt as if Dorn was giving Russ a stupid order, it was an order to wage war against an enemy that had ambushed the Wolves...Russ would have done it anyway, and he's not a moron. If he can aid his fathers Empire by delaying the Alpha Legion then I expect he would do so.

 

WLK

[Vash113]

Well, the Heresy is a 7 year long event.

 

also, the Wolves are aided in fighting off the Alpha Legion with help from an unexpected ally, who hasnt been named. Who's to say this wasnt the point where the Wolves and Dark Angels met up and made their push to Terra.

More importantly, it wasnt as if Dorn was giving Russ a stupid order, it was an order to wage war against an enemy that had ambushed the Wolves...Russ would have done it anyway, and he's not a moron. If he can aid his fathers Empire by delaying the Alpha Legion then I expect he would do so.

 

WLK

 

Indeed, additionally with the Warmaster turned traitor and the Emperor otherwise occupied Dorn was effectively acting as the supreme commander of the loyalist forces under the command of Terra, Dorn had the overall tactical situation and while Russ was hard-headed in extremis it makes sense he would follow a sensible order.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

I have mentioned before that I would love to see Leman Russ and his Wolves take on the Alpha Legion. That would make a great tale and a chance to show the überpowered Alpha Legion getting thier arses kicked so hard that it bounces off their shoulderblades.

Upon the matter of Russ the SW and the Imperial Guard. How many worlds do the SW legion look after?

[Gondlir the Wandbearer]

Well, the Heresy is a 7 year long event.

 

also, the Wolves are aided in fighting off the Alpha Legion with help from an unexpected ally, who hasnt been named. Who's to say this wasnt the point where the Wolves and Dark Angels met up and made their push to Terra.

More importantly, it wasnt as if Dorn was giving Russ a stupid order, it was an order to wage war against an enemy that had ambushed the Wolves...Russ would have done it anyway, and he's not a moron. If he can aid his fathers Empire by delaying the Alpha Legion then I expect he would do so.

 

WLK

 

Perhaps, but that's not my point. Established background has Russ and Johnson together when the news of Horus' treachery reaches them, and the two them then travelling together to Earth posthaste. (Presumably Johnson was nearby after Russ and the Wolves devastated Prospero, and the two friends decided to stop at the nearest roadside restaurant for some tea.) There's no room for the SW to tangle with the Alpha Legion and being given orders on their own from Dorn or anyone else before that happens...

Plus, equally established background has the Alpha Legion nowhere near the SW and Dark Angels, but at first moving to Terra with the Warmaster and the rest of the traitors, before more or less seceding and doing their own thing in bypassing Terra and heading to the galactic south to confront the Ultramarines who they did actually have a grievance with, so it's messing with not just one or two, but three Legions' backstory.

 

The problem I have isn't that the BL books overall account is completely senseless, it's that it completely rewrites established, equally (perhaps more) valid background for no reason whatsoever. Plus, the writing is generally terrible, and it's my firmly held opinion that the great crusade and the HH should never have been expanded upon, instead remaining a long-lost time of legends of which only a snippet of half-misremembered lore is preserved here and there. So, for my own happiness and peace of mind, I simply ignore the series as a badly written alternate timeline which has nothing to do with 40K's "actual" history. 

 

@ OP: Sorry for the thread hijack. Maybe we should take the discussion elsewhere, gentlemen?

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

@ gondlir where does this established fluff come from. I dont believe that some things that happened 10000 years ago couldnt turn out to have happened in a completly diffirent way. We are dealing with myths. The writers are welcome to ceate whatever tale. ...... As long as I am entertained.

[Vash113]

I have mentioned before that I would love to see Leman Russ and his Wolves take on the Alpha Legion. That would make a great tale and a chance to show the überpowered Alpha Legion getting thier arses kicked so hard that it bounces off their shoulderblades.

Upon the matter of Russ the SW and the Imperial Guard. How many worlds do the SW legion legion look after?

 

That would indeed be an excellent story.

 

As for the SW territory, that's hard to say. Directly only Fenris and the solar system within which it is located, though how many other planets are in the system, moons, orbitals, listening stations and what not is unknown. However like many Chapters the Space Wolves maintain an area of patrol and interest far around Fenris itself and possess at least one satelite garrison on Garm, particularly the Shrine of Garm which has a standing force of Space Wolves and Bondsman. How many other such facilities the Space Wolves maintain at any given time is also unknown.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps, but that's not my point. Established background has Russ and Johnson together when the news of Horus' treachery reaches them, and the two them then travelling together to Earth posthaste. (Presumably Johnson was nearby after Russ and the Wolves devastated Prospero, and the two friends decided to stop at the nearest roadside restaurant for some tea.) There's no room for the SW to tangle with the Alpha Legion and being given orders on their own from Dorn or anyone else before that happens...

Plus, equally established background has the Alpha Legion nowhere near the SW and Dark Angels, but at first moving to Terra with the Warmaster and the rest of the traitors, before more or less seceding and doing their own thing in bypassing Terra and heading to the galactic south to confront the Ultramarines who they did actually have a grievance with, so it's messing with not just one or two, but three Legions' backstory.

 

The problem I have isn't that the BL books overall account is completely senseless, it's that it completely rewrites established, equally (perhaps more) valid background for no reason whatsoever. Plus, the writing is generally terrible, and it's my firmly held opinion that the great crusade and the HH should never have been expanded upon, instead remaining a long-lost time of legends of which only a snippet of half-misremembered lore is preserved here and there. So, for my own happiness and peace of mind, I simply ignore the series as a badly written alternate timeline which has nothing to do with 40K's "actual" history. 

 

@ OP: Sorry for the thread hijack. Maybe we should take the discussion elsewhere, gentlemen?

 

Thread discussions evolve, helps sustain the discussion.

 

As for the fluff, it gets rewritten, altered, retconned and changed all the time. This is hardly new or surprising and for the most part I like the new material, not all of it, but on the whole I think it is making improvements. Much of the Horus Heresy stuff was first set down more than a decade ago, and not in a very concrete or fleshed out manner either, the HH series in effect has to make alterations to fit events into a proper timeline, tie one event to another and so on and so forth. As with all GW material, some is better than others, but we're talking about a series of what is now dozens of books, some of which are excellent and I would seriously recommend reading them.

[hendrik]

I always thought the unexpected allies were eldar coming to help against chaos rising to absolute power but now for the first time i'm thinking it could be the dark angels. if so, how would, they be unexpected allies? did word of their heresy reach the other legions? wouldn't it have been "expected" help from a fellow "loyal" legion. This is what lexaniucm says about who was fighting where:

 

 

"With nine Legions and much of the Adeptus Mechanicus behind him, Horus quickly struck towards Terra. To occupy the bulk of remaining loyalist forces, he commanded theAlpha Legion to bog down the Space Wolves and let the Night Lords rampage throughout the Imperium to draw the attention of the Dark Angels in the Thramas Crusade. Thus with the Ultramarines still reeling from their battle with the Word Bearers at the Battle of Calth, only the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars were in any position to defend Terra in force.[3c][5]"

 

"By the 55th day the rebels had reached the walls of the Inner Palace. Horus, who had remained in orbit aboard his battle barge, was at that point warned that the rest of the loyalist Legions were returning to Terra and would arrive in hours. The Ultramarines were pushing their way to Terra, along with the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels. If this were to happen, Horus' advantage in numbers would be diminished. He let down the force field protecting his battle barge, to lure the Emperor in a final battle that would decide the war."

 

"During the Horus Heresy, the Space Wolves were far from Terra, alongside the Dark Angels, and were unable to assist theirloyalist brethren in the fighting there. Knowing of the imminent arrival of the two Legions, which would tip the balance in favour of the loyalists, Horus allowed the Emperor to personally attack him in a gamble to swiftly end the war. The two Legions arrived just after the battle concluded, with Horus dead and the Emperor mortally wounded.[Needs Citation]"

"During the Horus Heresy, the Dark Angels were far from Terra, campaigning on the shield worlds, and were unable to participate directly in the events taking place there. Warmaster Horus ordered the Night Lords to intercept them on the Eastern Fringe and stop them from aiding the Emperor, but after ambushing and destroying much of the Night Lords fleet in the Thramas Crusade the Dark Angels were eventually able to set course for Terra.[19] Their impending arrival, closely following that of the Ultramarines and Space Wolveslegions, (who had overcome similar obstacles), forced Horus to gamble everything on a duel with the Emperor, his former master. Horus was defeated by the Emperor, although the Emperor himself was fatally wounded and had to be entombed within the life-preserving mechanism of the Golden Throne. El'Jonson was stricken with grief over the fact that he had not been able to protect the Emperor against Horus."

 

 

what's most interesting is that these last two quotes contradict each other. I guess i'll need to read collected visions again

[hendrik]

I'm now quickly working my way thoruh the collected visions book and here's how horus explains his plan right after the istvaan V massacre

the night haunter is ordered to take his legion to the eastern fringes to strike at the imperial strongholds heroldar and thramas. they have reports of the dark angels sighted there so he has enough to worry about. meanwhile the white scars are situated in the chondax system, close to prospero. the alpha legion is to prevent the space wolves and white scars from meeting up and is possible annihilate them

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@ gondlir where does this established fluff come from. I dont believe that some things that happened 10000 years ago couldnt turn out to have happened in a completly diffirent way. We are dealing with myths. The writers are welcome to ceate whatever tale. ...... As long as I am entertained.

 

i'd like to echo the question.

 

WLK

[Wispy]

I don't know about you, but I'd buy a book that's just about the series of speed bumps that Leman Russ and Lion El'Johnson hit along the way during their mad race for Terra.

[Max_Dammit]

He was a normal General before the primarch stuff was invented, the tank was named after him for that, all other fluff is just repair and patch work.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

He was a normal General before the primarch stuff was invented, the tank was named after him for that, all other fluff is just repair and patch work.

 

yea, and back in that day the Ultramarines were a 3rd founding Legion, and tigurius was half eldar...

 

so luckily, things changed.

 

WLK

[Gondlir the Wandbearer]

Thread discussions evolve, helps sustain the discussion.

 

As for the fluff, it gets rewritten, altered, retconned and changed all the time. This is hardly new or surprising and for the most part I like the new material, not all of it, but on the whole I think it is making improvements. Much of the Horus Heresy stuff was first set down more than a decade ago, and not in a very concrete or fleshed out manner either, the HH series in effect has to make alterations to fit events into a proper timeline, tie one event to another and so on and so forth. As with all GW material, some is better than others, but we're talking about a series of what is now dozens of books, some of which are excellent and I would seriously recommend reading them.

 

Fair enough, then, let's carry on. 

 

Yeah, the constant rewriting of fluff is one of the things that bugs me most about GW. BL then deciding to throw all that out and head in a completely different direction again is just too much for me.

 

As for where it all came from, the Russ/Johnson combo has been around since 2nd edition, and been expanded upon in the I:A articles, which IMO are about as detailed as the HH should ever get.

 

I mean, it would have been soooo simple to keep it all in line with this existing background. Just switch around the tales and locations of the White Scars and the Dark Angels; but put the White Scars/Night Lords conflict closer to Terra so the White Scars can both send the Night Lords howling and make it to Terra on time to participate in the Siege as they've always done.

Then Johnson, being good friends with Russ, decides not to heed Dorn's orders and help Russ tear the Alpha Legion a  new one, or does do as Dorn suggests, and Russ catches up with Johnson after doing said tearing himself. I mean, seriously, this took me 30 seconds to come up with, so why couldn't BL?

[Vash113]

 

 

 

Fair enough, then, let's carry on. 

 

Yeah, the constant rewriting of fluff is one of the things that bugs me most about GW. BL then deciding to throw all that out and head in a completely different direction again is just too much for me.

 

As for where it all came from, the Russ/Johnson combo has been around since 2nd edition, and been expanded upon in the I:A articles, which IMO are about as detailed as the HH should ever get.

 

I mean, it would have been soooo simple to keep it all in line with this existing background. Just switch around the tales and locations of the White Scars and the Dark Angels; but put the White Scars/Night Lords conflict closer to Terra so the White Scars can both send the Night Lords howling and make it to Terra on time to participate in the Siege as they've always done.

Then Johnson, being good friends with Russ, decides not to heed Dorn's orders and help Russ tear the Alpha Legion a  new one, or does do as Dorn suggests, and Russ catches up with Johnson after doing said tearing himself. I mean, seriously, this took me 30 seconds to come up with, so why couldn't BL?

 

Well thus far BL hasn't really touched these events, the White Scars are on Chondax, the Space Wolves and Alpha Legion are both currently unentangled in other conflicts. Who knows, Black Library may do exactly what you propose with the events, it's just not entirely clear yet. Thus I don't see where the conflict is.