Murder or Deception?

[Ravenfeld]

Hey Guys,

 

I am quite the drifter these days, but I like getting insight from my brothers here at the B&C and with Chaos it will be no different!

 

I have long loved both the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion, so much so that I am honestly surprised I have never made an army around them. That being said I am so detached from Chaos that I wouldn't even know where to begin. So I turn to you for insight and advice. Which army do you like more? Why? How would you go about building a fluffy, thematic list for either force?

 

I have a feeling the Night Lords would do well with Raptors / Warp Talons or Codex: Blood Angels really, with tactical squads and other fast moving "terror" elements.

 

While the Alpha Legion could be played as a loyalist legion with Imperial Allies (or vice versa even) or a Chaos force with lots of Cultists and few elite marine elements.

 

Two very different playstyles with all sorts of potential, so please - sate my curiosity!

 

Thank you,

Raven

[Brother Ambroz]

Well should be obvious which one I favor. I love these guys because they're psychopathic killers, would rather run than fight a fair fight (most of the time) and at least some of them still fight for something too. There's just so many awesome things about their culture and the way they view themselves. The Alpha Legion and Night Lords can have some traits in common, for example both can be stealthy at times. Also, Night Lords aren't really all about "fast attack", they're more about terror and frightening their opponents than anything. This is really difficult to put into rules for an actual game. Although there are ways I could think of to represent this, they didn't implement any with the current codex.

 

I did really like Alpha Legion until the last book involving them, Deliverance Lost, now I'm not sure what to think of them. Still waiting for another book of some kind to formulate an opinion. Alpha Legion are a bit easier to represent though with a Huron counts as and his Master of Deception trait.

[Ravenfeld]

Well should be obvious which one I favor. I love these guys because they're psychopathic killers, would rather run than fight a fair fight (most of the time) and at least some of them still fight for something too. There's just so many awesome things about their culture and the way they view themselves. The Alpha Legion and Night Lords can have some traits in common, for example both can be stealthy at times. Also, Night Lords aren't really all about "fast attack", they're more about terror and frightening their opponents than anything. This is really difficult to put into rules for an actual game. Although there are ways I could think of to represent this, they didn't implement any with the current codex.

 

I did really like Alpha Legion until the last book involving them, Deliverance Lost, now I'm not sure what to think of them. Still waiting for another book of some kind to formulate an opinion. Alpha Legion are a bit easier to represent though with a Huron counts as and his Master of Deception trait.

 

I see what you're saying. I think I gravitate towards fast attack because the ability to strike swiftly from unknown angles is cause for terror. A straight battle isn't very frightening, but being attacked from behind by fast moving enemies can shake even hardened veterans, especially when those attackers withdraw as fast as they arrived, keeping the enemies guessing. Same principle as a lictor really.. you know its there, you know it wants you dead, but you have no idea where or when it will strike. Psychological warfare at its finest. I wouldn't employ heavy weapons with Night Lords, at least not tanks, I imagine its all about shock and awe which would be best achieved through lightning strikes. Just my interpretation of course.

 

Alpha Legion with Huron as a counts as, and lots of cultists to represent the riling of the masses would work. And as an alternative I could run them as Imperial Guard with C:SM allies representing the Alpha Legion deep inside the enemy lines manipulating the guard to their ends. I like the flexibility that provides. Especially when I can just use Catachan or Cadian Guard as cultists if needed.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Raven, as a fellow Hand, I'm going to forgive your "Alpha Legion = Cultists" mindset. . . just this once.  It's a misrepresentation that's been repeated so many times that the lie has become true.

 

The Alpha Legion use human operatives to do their intelligence gathering, not their fighting.  There is no way to translate this effectively to the tabletop in the current rule set.  The Alpha Legion's actual tactical specialty is in coordinated strikes from multiple and unexpected angles virtually simultaneously.  In theory, this involves a combination of a mechanized element, an Infiltrating element, an Outflanking element, and an accurate deep striking element.  Again, there is no way to translate this effectively to the tabletop in the current rule set.  The absolute closest we (and I say we because my first army is Alpha Legion) can come using C:CSM is to field a counts-as Huron and hope for a high number on his Master of Deception roll.  I'm a sucker for armies that are both fluffy and effective, so I balance that with deep strikers. . . but since we don't have teleport homers or locator beacons, there's no way to ensure the "accurate" part.

 

C:SM might be a better option to be honest.  Khan gives you Outflank, or better yet, Ahazra Redth from IA10 gives you Infiltrate across the board.

 

As for Night Lords?  There's really no way to show off their terror-causing bent on the tabletop either.  Your fast attack idea -- while a perversion of the Legion's MO caused by the 3.5 codex -- is probably going to be the closest thing you can get to a concept for the Night Lords that is both kind of fluffy and kind of effective (now that Chaos bikers are so cheap).

[Ravenfeld]

Raven, as a fellow Hand, I'm going to forgive your "Alpha Legion = Cultists" mindset. . . just this once.  It's a misrepresentation that's been repeated so many times that the lie has become true.

 

The Alpha Legion use human operatives to do their intelligence gathering, not their fighting.  There is no way to translate this effectively to the tabletop in the current rule set.  The Alpha Legion's actual tactical specialty is in coordinated strikes from multiple and unexpected angles virtually simultaneously.  In theory, this involves a combination of a mechanized element, an Infiltrating element, an Outflanking element, and an accurate deep striking element.  Again, there is no way to translate this effectively to the tabletop in the current rule set.  The absolute closest we (and I say we because my first army is Alpha Legion) can come using C:CSM is to field a counts-as Huron and hope for a high number on his Master of Deception roll.  I'm a sucker for armies that are both fluffy and effective, so I balance that with deep strikers. . . but since we don't have teleport homers or locator beacons, there's no way to ensure the "accurate" part.

 

C:SM might be a better option to be honest.  Khan gives you Outflank, or better yet, Ahazra Redth from IA10 gives you Infiltrate across the board.

 

As for Night Lords?  There's really no way to show off their terror-causing bent on the tabletop either.  Your fast attack idea -- while a perversion of the Legion's MO caused by the 3.5 codex -- is probably going to be the closest thing you can get to a concept for the Night Lords that is both kind of fluffy and kind of effective (now that Chaos bikers are so cheap).

 

Thanks DEF! Who knew you had some traitor in you. It seems that we share affection for similar kinds of armies. I only brought up the Cultist angle because I read it somewhere more recently. I still lean towards the whole using Imperial Guard as the main force with Codex Marine allies to represent the Alpha Legion manipulating the battle, but I see what you're saying about the attack from multiple angles. Khan had crossed my mind, Redth not so much but now that you mention it, he does make sense. I haven't really had a chance to scan the Chaos Dex for all the goodies, so I don't really even know what to put forward in terms of ideas, but with C:SM I have plenty of experience! Haha. An outflanking or infiltrating army would definitely be something new, especially with mechanized units, since my Hands (much like yours) are deployed almost entirely in pods!

 

I wasn't even considering the fast attack thing as part of the Night Lords battle strategy at large really, I was thinking more from my personal perception of how best to affect that whole "terror" on the battlefield thing without rules to expressly allow it. A slow moving, face to face, force wouldn't be terrifying enough. A fast moving force thats hard to counter is better suited I think. It also would allow me to step outside my machine like advance and try a more fast paced play style.

[Vesper]

 

An outflanking or infiltrating army would definitely be something new

Not for us, sadly, and many old timers regret the blessed time when we had such options.

 

I'd echo what Deus Ex Ferrum said on the Alpha Legion. But cultists could still make decent cultists (who'd have known ?), as the AL is known for their tendencies to plot uprisings and such, timing their actions with disorders like that.

Huron makes a good AL warlord.

 

I'd say go for Alpha Legion, NL are way too mainstream :p.

[Ravenfeld]

Not for us, sadly, and many old timers regret the blessed time when we had such options.

I'd echo what Deus Ex Ferrum said on the Alpha Legion. But cultists could still make decent cultists (who'd have known ?), as the AL is known for their tendencies to plot uprisings and such, timing their actions with disorders like that.

Huron makes a good AL warlord.

I'd say go for Alpha Legion, NL are way too mainstream .

Mainstream eh? My local store is a mixture of Death Guard, Iron Warriors and a big cultist blob. To be completely honest I think the Alpha Legion is my favorite chaos chapter (behind the Death Guard, but only because Space Zombies.) but I feel that the Chaos Models don't fit! They wouldn't be all spikey and mutated, being not committed to the ruinous powers in any large way and being masters of subtlety and deception, having a massive set of horns on your helmet does not an infiltrator make. So if I did Alpha Legion I would once again be dealing with loyalist kits, just painted differently and with some subtle chaos references. it presents an amazing opportunity to make a unique chaos force, but it won't really bring me out of my vanilla rut! That being said I intend to do both of these armies eventually, but between all the Xenos and Imperial plans I have one of these two forces might be taking a back seat for a long while!

Thanks for your insight though, definitely helps. I would likely use Huron if I go with a Chaos Dex, and Khan or Redth if I use the Vanilla dex.

[Vesper]

 

Alpha Legion is my favorite chaos chapter

It's a legion !

 

The AL could be as spikey as any other Chaos related marine. Some cells/warbands must have operated in places like the Eye of Terror, the Maelstrom or any other warp strom. Then, they don't infiltrate the way we understand it, they have human agents to do it. For example, on Vraks, they did not infiltrate, they wore power armours with a different colour scheme to pass by the loyalist's lines and then they took back all their Chaosy stuff.

[the jeske]

kind of a depands what people see as spiky . are they chaos marines , using chaos stuff and pre heresy stuff ? yeah . are they like in to the whole worshiping thing , not realy . Or at least they werent back in the day when we got their fluff . Right now they maybe as devoted to chaos as WB , as the story team seems to change all the stuff I liked about chaos.

[Wade Garrett]

Alpha Legion doesn't use cultists for fighting...except for all the times when they do (Legion, We Are One, The Serpent Beneath psyker girl, and the meat shields at Vraks)

[Lay]

Raptors are indeed a perfect fit for a NL army:

"Wherever Raptors prowl, ghostly voices and horrific threats are broadcast into enemy comms, the skies are haunted by daemonic faces, and evil shrieks echo through the night so that their sleep-deprived quarry is driven to the edge of madness. Needless to say, the ranks of the Night Lords, a Legion famous for its terror tactics, attract a great many Raptors to its banner."

- Codex CSM, p.48

Not to mention that the Night Lords pioneered the use of jump infantry during the Great Crusade according to the novel "Lord of the Night".

 

The same applies to the ALs use of armed cultists:

"These were no mindless, brainwashed Daemon-worshippers like those we'd fought before, herded forward as gun-fodder by their Traitor Space Marines masters. This group was trained, well-equipped and knew exactly what it was doing. They appeared out of nowhere on both sides of the column, and went straight for the heavy armour. Four of the main battle tanks had tracks blown off before enough infantry could dismount to stop them, and then they just fell back into the ruins of the city. It took us more than an hour to get the column rolling again, and by the time we reached our rendezvous, the battle had already started."

- Index Astartes: Alpha Legion

"As they tend to operate as raiders deep within the Imperium they need local support to bolster their numbers."

- Codex CSM 3.5, p.40

Also, the "Crusade of Fire" expansion book features an Alpha Legion studio army that is themed around the idea of Cultists starting a planetary revolt 'below' and their Alpha Legion masters invading from 'above'. That's one way to portray an assault from multiple directions.

I feel that the Chaos Models don't fit! They wouldn't be all spikey and mutated, being not committed to the ruinous powers in any large way and being masters of subtlety and deception, having a massive set of horns on your helmet does not an infiltrator make. So if I did Alpha Legion I would once again be dealing with loyalist kits, just painted differently and with some subtle chaos references.

There has been some artwork that gives us an idea what legion specific AL armour looks like. Reptilian sculpts on their armour seem to be a recurring theme:

From the 3rd edition Codex (1999)

From the Index Astartes article

From the Space Marine game

Also, Forge World originally planned to make an AL conversion set for their "Siege of Vraks" campaign that would have looked a lot more 'subtle' than the standard CSM minis. Too bad those were never made:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/argos/gduk/alphalegiondrawing.jpg

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/argos/gduk/alphalegionchests.jpg

Oh, and you should totally check out Kaleb Daark's army. He captured both the reptilian and the infiltrator look perfectly.

For example, on Vraks, they did not infiltrate, they wore power armours with a different colour scheme to pass by the loyalist's lines and then they took back all their Chaosy stuff.

Actually, the Renegade and Heretics army list from IA Volume V has "Alpha Legion Squads" that can infiltrate (basically the Chosen entry from the last Codex). I wonder if it's still legal.

[chillin]

I guess I not the one to ask, NL and AL, along with EC are my 3 least favorite and boring (IMO) chaos armys

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I have had this argument before, Lay and Wade, but I'm willing to fight it again.  The only times that Cultists were used by the Alpha Legion in combat was Vraks and Quintus.  The few other times that non-Astartes loyal to the Alpha Legion physically fought alongside the Legionnaires, they weren't armed civilian rabble.  They were professional soldiers, armed and organized like a regular army.  The example that Lay gave from the IA proves my point here -- if you have the discipline, organization, and weaponry to conduct a successful ambush on an armored company without suffering any casualties then you're not Cultists, you're soldiers.

 

As for the example of Legion, the operatives were not "cultists."  They were soldiers, and they did not fight alongside the Legionnaires.  The only time they engaged an enemy under the command of the XXth was when Soneka rescued Bronzi from Namatjira's flagship, and that was not "alongside" or "with" or any other adjective that could be used to indicate that the operatives and the Legionnaires were fighting the same battle.  In "We Are One," again, the opposition was professional soldiery, not rebels or rabble.  As for the psyker chick in "The Serpent Beneath," again, not a cultist because she wasn't a part of a cult.  She was an operative.

[Ravenfeld]

So with that in mind, DEF, what would you recommend as Operatives? Cultists could be converted to represent Operatives, or the Imp Guard can be used, though not if I count the AL as Chaos. Also, is it not true that they aren't truly aligned with the Chaos gods, and if thats the case how could you justify sorcerers with marks, or indeed any unit with marks?

[Wade Garrett]

 

The only times that Cultists were used by the Alpha Legion in combat was Vraks and Quintus.  The few other times that non-Astartes loyal to the Alpha Legion physically fought alongside the Legionnaires, they weren't armed civilian rabble.  They were professional soldiers, armed and organized like a regular army.  The example that Lay gave from the IA proves my point here -- if you have the discipline, organization, and weaponry to conduct a successful ambush on an armored company without suffering any casualties then you're not Cultists, you're soldiers.

If you mean that the tabletop "drooling fanatics short on ammunition, food, and sanity" are a poor fit for the average Alpha Legion operative, I agree, that degree of expendable meat shield is more the Word Bearers bag.

 

However, just because one is, in fluff, a Chaos cultist does mean that one must abandon all sound principles of military planning and attack Land Raiders with a pointy stick, consider the Blood Pact or the Sons of Sek, who would be better represented on tabletop as Imperial Guard. So yes, in the sense that the Alpha Legion includes numerous non Astartes Chaos worshippers in its operations means that they use cultists...if not necessarily Cultists.

[Brother Ambroz]

If Kol was here, he'd have something to say about the raptor legion bit.

 

On another note, they're not really mainstream Vesper, Mr. Black Legion turncoat! I've never seen another Night Lord player the whole time I've been playing 40k.

 

Really the Alpha Legion only uses trained, proffessional operatives like Deus has been saying. Most of the codex fluff isn't all that great anymore when it comes to the legions.

[totgeboren]

Alpha Legion can of course be represented using C:CSM, lead by count-as Huron to get Master of Deception. On the other hand, C:SM gives Combat Tactics, which to my mind fits the AL really good. Scouts also work great as enhanced elite operatives, and to be honest, in my mind C:SM would probably give a more entertaining AL army than one using C:CSM.

 

Either way, IG allies, especially a platoon lead by Al'rahem, allowing them all to outflank could be pretty cool. Straken as a chaos assassin (I use mine that way), and a Command squad for all sorts of reserve manipulation.

 

NL are a bit trickier. Raptors do have fear, which definitely goes with the theme, and Raptors by themselves are also sort of NL-ish (I know I know, NL are not just about Raptors). On the other hand, Raptors are not all that good. They are ok, I used a squad last battle and they did ok. They just cost to much, as they are a close combat squad, which means they lack some utility.

If they could be taken as troops if the Lord took a jump pack, they would be a bit more useful, but sadly that is not the case.

BA on the other hand allows the jump pack theme, if that is what you are after with the NL. On the other hand, they are based around the inclusion of Death Company and Priests, which forces you to do some count-as, especially if you want to go down a more warpy route. DC = Possessed, priests = Dark Apostles or something.

However, if you are going down a warpy route, you might as well use C:CSM. ATSKNF doesn't really scream NL either, so CSM might be a better fit in any case. NL bikes look pretty cool to, and CSM bikes are very useful.

[Lay]

I have had this argument before, Lay and Wade, but I'm willing to fight it again. The only times that Cultists were used by the Alpha Legion in combat was Vraks and Quintus.

Pretty sure that there's a few more examples, but I don't think that this would make a difference. The problem here is that there's only a small number of stories giving us examples out of an almost infinite number of battles fought over the course of 10.000 years. To get a better picture of the AL's modus operandi, I'd rather use sources that describe the legion as a whole.

The example that Lay gave from the IA proves my point here -- if you have the discipline, organization, and weaponry to conduct a successful ambush on an armored company without suffering any casualties then you're not Cultists, you're soldiers.

Nah, those were clearly meant to be cultists. I don't think the IA was teasing players with fluff about AL 'soldiers' only to give them an entirely different unit in the rules section. From the same source: "It is known that the legion recruits, supplies and organizes hundreds of cultist cells on Imperial worlds. These groups are not all crazed devotees of the Chaos gods and insane daemon-worshippers (although there are plenty of those). There are also highly organized, trained and motivated groups who work to subvert the authorities, produce and spread propaganda and, when called upon, undertake military action - usually in the form of bombings, sabotage and inciting riots."

[Vesper]

For example, on Vraks, they did not infiltrate, they wore power armours with a different colour scheme to pass by the loyalist's lines and then they took back all their Chaosy stuff.

Actually, the Renegade and Heretics army list from IA Volume V has "Alpha Legion Squads" that can infiltrate (basically the Chosen entry from the last Codex). I wonder if it's still legal.

I was talking about the way they worked on Vraks, not their rules . The said rules sure are still legal. Speaking of Vraks, the Faithless trained Vraks renegades to make them more efficient.

I love your posts, by the way.

EDIT :

If Kol was here, he'd have something to say about the raptor legion bit.

Haha, he surely would !

On another note, they're not really mainstream Vesper, Mr. Black

Legion turncoat! I've never seen another Night Lord player the whole

time I've been playing 40k.

Played Black Legion when I started back in 3.5. Turned Night Lords partly to give me a purpose during the atrocious reign of the gavdex. :)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

I have had this argument before, Lay and Wade, but I'm willing to fight it again. The only times that Cultists were used by the Alpha Legion in combat was Vraks and Quintus.

Pretty sure that there's a few more examples, but I don't think that this would make a difference. The problem here is that there's only a small number of stories giving us examples out of an almost infinite number of battles fought over the course of 10.000 years. To get a better picture of the AL's modus operandi, I'd rather use sources that describe the legion as a whole.

>>The example that Lay gave from the IA proves my point here -- if you have the discipline, organization, and weaponry to conduct a successful ambush on an armored company without suffering any casualties then you're not Cultists, you're soldiers.

Nah, those were clearly meant to be cultists. I don't think the IA was teasing players with fluff about AL 'soldiers' only to give them an entirely different unit in the rules section. From the same source: "It is known that the legion recruits, supplies and organizes hundreds of cultist cells on Imperial worlds. These groups are not all crazed devotees of the Chaos gods and insane daemon-worshippers (although there are plenty of those). There are also highly organized, trained and motivated groups who work to subvert the authorities, produce and spread propaganda and, when called upon, undertake military action - usually in the form of bombings, sabotage and inciting riots."

 

 

So. . . the cultists in this example are terrorists, yes?  Taking action to subvert Imperial authorities behind the lines?  Because "bombings, sabotage, and inciting riots" is no way what a model on the 40K tabletop does.  In this case, the writer used the term "military action" erroneously; I should know, I was a soldier for nine years and never once was I trained to or called upon to commit acts of bombing, sabotage, or rioting.

 

 

Edit: Look, my point is this: the Alpha Legion are Space Marines.  Space Marines are not going to let someone else do their fighting for them.  They are bigger, stronger, tougher, faster, and smarter than humans -- and they know it.  They are the ultimate fighting force -- and they know it.  So why would they ever want to let an inferior force act where they can do it quicker, better, and more thoroughly?

[Iron Sage]

If Kol was here, he'd have something to say about the raptor legion bit.

 

On another note, they're not really mainstream Vesper, Mr. Black Legion turncoat! I've never seen another Night Lord player the whole time I've been playing 40k.

 

Really the Alpha Legion only uses trained, proffessional operatives like Deus has been saying. Most of the codex fluff isn't all that great anymore when it comes to the legions.

Nah. That is very, very oversimplified my friend, and Deus is in many ways wrong (albeit, of course, many actual Guard/PDF regiments/companies will also obviously fight in such a rebellion). In a proper planetwide insurection (which is what the Legion often tries to forment) there will be thousands and thousands of ill trained combatants. Some of their officers and indeed soldiers, might be PDF or even ex-Guard, others, and in many cases the majority, will be labourers, industrial workers, inn keepers, scribes or whatever.

 

Will they be raving lunatics screaming for blood and the blessings of forbidden gods? Most probably not (albeit individual Alpha Legion commanders might indeed, at times, also forment a proper chaos rebellion if it serves their purposes), albeit in many cases the "Cultist" stats will serve alright for relativly trained civilian gurillas (remember, Conscripts have worse stats, so its not as if cultists have "bad" statlines or anything like it as they are clearly above the human "average" as such).

 

Just model the cultists without the chaos isignias and such. If you want, take Guard allies to represent the "cultists" that are proper conventional military formations (such as a regiment rebelling etc.).

 

But yes, cultists serve fine as a fluffy option indeed.

[Brother Ambroz]

Depends which fluff you want to go with Iron Sage. The fluff from Legion is some of what Deus is referring to. Then you've got the older stuff like Vraks.

Ah Vesper so you're twice a turncoat now huh??

[Iron Sage]

Heh, I dont see why Legion (best Horus Heresy book I have read apart from the 2 first ones ;) ) contradicts anything I said above to be honest :) Remember, splitting up into actual Al Quaida-like cells is something the Legion does later in a time where Legions are no longer deployed in full (apart from certain exceptions obviously )

 

Lol, Vesper is a proper traitor, isn`t he ^^

[Vesper]

Depends which fluff you want to go with Iron Sage. The fluff from Legion is some of what Deus is referring to. Then you've got the older stuff like Vraks.

Ah Vesper so you're twice a turncoat now huh??

I'd say we could all agree that the AL is likely to use every fighting force to their advantage. Cultists, traitors, Marines, all have different purposes, different abilities and qualities. All are useful to the AL, and all have a place within the legion's plots.

And here's my full CSM history : Black Legion, Sons of Malice, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Black Legion .

What sucks is that I like many traitor warbands. Made test mini for the Purge, the Sons of Vengeance, the Extinction Angels... And I'd also love to make a Slaaneshi warband and a Raptor cult...

[Iron Sage]

Depends which fluff you want to go with Iron Sage. The fluff from Legion is some of what Deus is referring to. Then you've got the older stuff like Vraks.

Ah Vesper so you're twice a turncoat now huh??

I'd say we could all agree that the AL is likely to use every fighting force to their advantage. Cultists, traitors, Marines, all have different purposes, different abilities and qualities. All are useful to the AL, and all have a place within the legion's plots.

And here's my full CSM history : Black Legion, Sons of Malice, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Black Legion .

What sucks is that I like many traitor warbands. Made test mini for the Purge, the Sons of Vengeance, the Extinction Angels... And I'd also love to make a Slaaneshi warband and a Raptor cult...

Have you considered a proper Vesper cult, uniting your various riff raff forces under your hallowed banner ?