Murder or Deception?

[Vesper]

No, I like the idea of a united warband with a strong identity. I've always felt a bit uneasy with mixed warbands. Just not my thing I guess.

[Iron Sage]

No, I like the idea of a united warband with a strong identity. I've always felt a bit uneasy with mixed warbands. Just not my thing I guess.

I understand you very well. You should note that it was a joke though ;)

[Brother Ambroz]

Iron Sage - They started the Al Queda stuff once the heresy began in full right? Sounds about right.

 

Vesper, well you could unite factions from each of those groups (with the possible exception of the Sons of Malice) under the banner of the Black Legion if you wanted.

 

Edit: Nevermind just saw your further conversation on page 2.

[Vesper]

No, I like the idea of a united warband with a strong identity. I've always felt a bit uneasy with mixed warbands. Just not my thing I guess.

I understand you very well. You should note that it was a joke though

It has been noted :).

[Iron Sage]

Iron Sage - They started the Al Queda stuff once the heresy began in full right? Sounds about right.

 

Vesper, well you could unite factions from each of those groups (with the possible exception of the Sons of Malice) under the banner of the Black Legion if you wanted.

 

Edit: Nevermind just saw your further conversation on page 2.

Yes. They always had those "tendencies" (Hydra and all that), but they become seriously Al Qaida only after the Heresy has begun as far as I understand it from various fluff soources.

[the jeske]

Well the thing is those IG regiments , those cultists they wip in to frenzy , the AL doesnt see them as "their dudes" . Some of the sleeper agents are not fully implanted space marines , they infiltrate other chapters or the inq . Those AL sees as "their dudes" the rest is as important as ammo or fuel.

 

Probably the closest thing we could do to get the AL "feel" was codex marine armies using scouts and mixed with marines back when 4th dex was still legal and we already had the gav dex.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

FOMENT. The word is "foment," not "forment."

 

And for crying out loud, would you please READ what I'm typing? Will the Alpha Legion foment rebellion? Yes, of course. But will they actually fight alongside hordes of ill-trained civilian militia on the battlefield? It has happened, yes. ONCE, in a terrible novel that deserves to be unwritten. and even then its not a perfect example of cultist use in combat since they weren't cultists, but an enslaved population herded in front of the battle lines as bullet sponges.

 

Or do you honestly believe that the most pragmatic and secretive fighting force in the history of 40K would entrust important battlefield objectives to a ragtag group of civies with no armor, no heavy weapons, and no discipline? Because if you do, I've got some beachfront property in Kansas to sell you.

[Iron Sage]

FOMENT. The word is "foment," not "forment."

 

And for crying out loud, would you please READ what I'm typing? Will the Alpha Legion foment rebellion? Yes, of course. But will they actually fight alongside hordes of ill-trained civilian militia on the battlefield? It has happened, yes. ONCE, in a terrible novel that deserves to be unwritten. and even then its not a perfect example of cultist use in combat since they weren't cultists, but an enslaved population herded in front of the battle lines as bullet sponges.

 

Or do you honestly believe that the most pragmatic and secretive fighting force in the history of 40K would entrust important battlefield objectives to a ragtag group of civies with no armor, no heavy weapons, and no discipline? Because if you do, I've got some beachfront property in Kansas to sell you.

ROFL!...

 

Thanks for the Caps Lock Foment explanation, haha...

 

As for the rest of your post, I dont know what your personal problem is or why you choose to be so incredibly confrontational (lack of coffe, sleep, or kids keeping you up at night maybe, because otherwise you might want to consider growing up), but its seriously nonsense that which you write.

 

Does the Alpha Legion FOMENT (lol!!!)  civil war and anarchy as parts of their plans? Yes, sherlock, they do. Maybe you now can begin to explain to me how a Civil War is fought?

 

By the way, I am buying your "bridge" as YES INDEED, obviously, Sherlock; civilians and indeed, PDF etc. elements (which often have some rudimentary armour at the very least) are part of their plans if they utilize those forces in the first place to stage a planet wide rebellion. They would be absolute retards if those forces were not part of their plans, even though themselves might not direct those forces directly on the battlefield. To those forces (maybe you lack immagination to consider that, I dont know) the Legion might appear as "loyalist" astartes, and the imperium might be the "rebels" due to effective propaganda. There are always a myriad of explantions for those with some rudimentary fluff knowledge and more importantly, immagination.

[Vesper]

Please guys, let's keep it cool and civil.

[Ravenfeld]

 

FOMENT. The word is "foment," not "forment."

 

And for crying out loud, would you please READ what I'm typing? Will the Alpha Legion foment rebellion? Yes, of course. But will they actually fight alongside hordes of ill-trained civilian militia on the battlefield? It has happened, yes. ONCE, in a terrible novel that deserves to be unwritten. and even then its not a perfect example of cultist use in combat since they weren't cultists, but an enslaved population herded in front of the battle lines as bullet sponges.

 

Or do you honestly believe that the most pragmatic and secretive fighting force in the history of 40K would entrust important battlefield objectives to a ragtag group of civies with no armor, no heavy weapons, and no discipline? Because if you do, I've got some beachfront property in Kansas to sell you.

ROFL!...

 

Thanks for the Caps Lock Foment explanation, haha...

 

As for the rest of your post, I dont know what your personal problem is or why you choose to be so incredibly confrontational (lack of coffe, sleep, or kids keeping you up at night maybe, because otherwise you might want to consider growing up), but its seriously nonsense that which you write.

 

Does the Alpha Legion FOMENT (lol!!!)  civil war and anarchy as parts of their plans? Yes, sherlock, they do. Maybe you now can begin to explain to me how a Civil War is fought?

 

By the way, I am buying your "bridge" as YES INDEED, obviously, Sherlock; civilians and indeed, PDF etc. elements (which often have some rudimentary armour at the very least) are part of their plans if they utilize those forces in the first place to stage a planet wide rebellion. They would be absolute retards if those forces were not part of their plans, even though themselves might not direct those forces directly on the battlefield. To those forces (maybe you lack immagination to consider that, I dont know) the Legion might appear as "loyalist" astartes, and the imperium might be the "rebels" due to effective propaganda. There are always a myriad of explantions for those with some rudimentary fluff knowledge and more importantly, immagination.

 

You're still not understanding what he is saying Sage, he isn't saying they don't make use of cultists / civilians / traitorous military bodies. He is saying that they rarely fight alongside them, as in they will set up a riot in one sector of a hive just to personally assault the sector from a different position to gain the advantage. Or they will set up a rebellion on planet X so that they can attack planet Y which was left less protected due to the enemy having to send reinforcements from planet Y to help with Planet X. He isn't arguing whether or not they make use of mortals as resources, nor is he saying they fail to manipulate the masses in any particular fashion, he is simply saying they don't actually "deploy" with the rabble that they are manipulating. Essentially using those mortals (whatever their designation, cultist, civilian, military) as a tool for misdirection.

 

I should also point out that telling someone to "grow up" and then going on to blatantly insult them is not exactly giving you the high ground. You essentially called him stupid a few times, then said he lacked imagination, etc. If you want others to keep it civil, show them how its done.

 

Now, for everyone else, I think we are getting ever so slightly off topic! While I love the discussion and in a round-about way it is answering one of my questions, how about we get back to the point of how best to field them "with the rules we have" as opposed to how they operate in the fluff. Naturally I want to keep it as fluffy as possible within said rules, but sacrifices will need to be made!

 

Also, I am curious as to how you guys would go about running a fluffy NL list, while we're at it.

 

Thanks for the posts!

Raven.

[Brother Ambroz]

Another way to look at the way Night Lords fight is with overwhelming firepower. Most groups won't attack unless they feel they have an advantage. I see this as taking as much firepower as possible.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Thanks Raven. I'm ducking out of this topic though before I say something that'll earn me a warning.

[chillin]

On another note, they're not really mainstream Vesper, Mr. Black Legion turncoat! I've never seen another Night Lord player the whole time I've been playing 40k.

If my memory serves, I think I've only ever seen (and I've been playing about 15 yrs +) a NL army once. And they were 1/2 pink, bc they were NM NL's . Everytime he refered to them as his "NL's" I cringed.

[DarkVen]

Another option for NLs is Codex: Grey Knights. Creepy enough to scare and make feel any but the most stubborn opponent doomed. Blood Angels are just way too mainstream and obvious...

 

I am for using our own codex, 'cause it has many interesting options, requires some brain-storming by building army-list (that part is an indicator of a good 'dex for me), and in the end was written for us. If anyone wants to play BA or any other loyalist chapter - that's fine, but why don't you paint your miniatures in the colors of the named chapter? You like fluff and paint scheme, but not rule-set? Pfff, douchebagery 'n' munchkination. Let's keep in mind that between two stools one falls to the ground.

 

About that thing called 'raptor-legion-army'. Everyone speaks about it, but no one has seen it, to my mind. And hardly we'll see one in years.

For me NLs are just another army, for which such units like 'raptors', 'bikes', 'csm with rhinos' are suitable, and not needed. In the end, if I want to try some interesting combination in my army that includes, say, khorne 'zerks, why don't I use full of my codex? I can say that these bad boys are just kind random guys hanging around, having some drinks, playing with some chicks etc. that like good bash.

 

EDIT: To make it clear - I didn't want to injure anyone, everything written is my personal opinion.

[Wade Garrett]

 

In this case, the writer used the term "military action" erroneously; I should know, I was a soldier for nine years and never once was I trained to or called upon to commit acts of bombing, sabotage, or rioting.

Isn't the whole point of various special forces units to run around behind enemy lines bombing, sabotaging, and so on? I'm a bit less certain on the rioting thing but I'd imagine the use of SF guys as trainers for various partisan/freedom fighter/guerilla groups in various parts of the world would fall under this category, and I certainly wouldn't say that those gentlemen aren't "proper soldiers".

 

 

Oddly, one interpretation of the Alpharius/Rob conflict is that Guilliman felt the Alphas spent too much time running around behind enemy lines bombing, sniping, and sabotaging and not enough time being "proper" soldiers, while Alpharius believed Rob's time would be more productively spent widening the corridors on all the Ultramarine battlebarges so that the Battle King of Maccrage could fit his swollen head through them with less time and effort.

[derpasaurus]

I've always liked Night Lords. They're my first army, and I have a list I like to play mostly nailed down. As soon as I can afford it I'm going to pick up some bikes and cultists, and I think I've given up on my terminators. Maybe use them as oblits... lol
Anyway yeah, as said before, they're not so much fast attack as "terror tactics" which fast, brutal raptor, etc. strikes sure can be. I tend to lean towards overwhelming force, something akin to "shock and awe." I have Raptors and a Hell Drake, but the meat of my army is in the heavy support section, with a vindicator, havocs, and a dakkafiend. Also, my 2 troops carry dual plasma in rhinos, so they're very fast, moderately protected, and melt most things pretty handily. I'm also one of those few people that fields chosen, and I have them kitted for close range combat and assaults. I use Huron as my leader most of the time, as well. I've always been a big fan of infiltrate/outflank, and I feel it fits the terror tactics rather well to have raptors and/or chosen (or sometimes even havocs) strategically placed before the fighting starts or scooting in off a board edge. Plus Huron is fairly killy and he actually led a group of Night Lords at one point. My list doesn't win all the time, but it's almost always a close game and always a lot of fun.

That's not even touching on the huge amounts of story out there, particularly the amazing trilogy by ADB. Their culture strikes me as very Goblin King ("kill the king! the king is dead! long live the king. I am the king!") combined with, at least for some, bonds of brotherhood and loyalty from days gone by, so it's like a different ideology and culture for every different warband. Examples being Sevatar or Sahaal vs. Talos and 1st claw. Good fun stuff for a grimdark world. 

[Jiron]

My opinion on your first question? Make both!

Unless you are making a heresy era army, I tend to make things chaotic with legions.

I would personally go for something like two warbands working together. Alpha Legion has always good reasons for operating with Night Lords. While Night Lords will sow terror in the heart of the enemy, the Alpha Legion will strike from their midst when they will be weakest.

I can quite exactly immagine these two legions cooperating.

[Ammonius]

I just had an idea!

Why not paint up a Night Lords force and on one or two units (or all of the unit Aspiring champions?) hide hydra shapes in the lightning patterns! Strike Force Pareidolia anyone?

[derpasaurus]

I just had an idea!

Why not paint up a Night Lords force and on one or two units (or all of the unit Aspiring champions?) hide hydra shapes in the lightning patterns! Strike Force Pareidolia anyone?

Why settle for murder OR deception when you can have murder AND deception!?

[Ravenfeld]

Haha, that is a pretty clever idea, cheaper on my wallet too. Of course the AL would be in a leadership position and have agents spread throughout each squad to ensure cohesion.. It might be something I actually end up doing.

 

Also, I think I would make my NL into a Biker list, I like the sound of that and its something I haven't done yet!

[Ifrit446]

Another option for NLs is Codex: Grey Knights. Creepy enough to scare and make feel any but the most stubborn opponent doomed. Blood Angels are just way too mainstream and obvious...

I'm kind of interested to see how you would use Grey Knights for Night Lords. Not trying to sound like a jerk, but I've never seen someone suggest that.

I'm currently using Greys for my Alpha Legion and Blood Angels for my Night Lords (slow and steady progress), but if you've got some cool points for the Night Lords then I'm all ears

[derpasaurus]

I actually saw some armies on parade pics over on BoLS of Night Lords made out of Grey Knights models. Looked kinda neat, actually. I guess they just played with the GK rules but looked like NL, because they had Dreadknights and Purgation squads and crap in it. lol. Just in case anyone is interested, here's the link:

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/04/hobby-night-haunter-cometh-wargamescon.html

[totgeboren]

Oh, ow. That link, it hurt my brain. :(

[Ifrit446]

I actually saw some armies on parade pics over on BoLS of Night Lords made out of Grey Knights models. Looked kinda neat, actually. I guess they just played with the GK rules but looked like NL, because they had Dreadknights and Purgation squads and crap in it. lol. Just in case anyone is interested, here's the link:

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/04/hobby-night-haunter-cometh-wargamescon.html

 

See as cool as those were, those didn't seem like ACTUAL Night Lords, Just Grey Knights that look like Night Lords. It's just a simple head swap and lightning painted on (which doesn't seem too believable to me). Is it cool, sure. But does it make any sense...Not really. 

 

That's why I'm looking for more reasons than just something like that. PS: that Draigo conversion was badass

[Ravenfeld]

To me that just stinks of metagaming. I mean why on earth would the Night Lords have anything at all to do with Grey Knights, rules-wise or at all! I mean the NL aren't all Psykers, they aren't TDA heavy, they definitely don't have dread knights... someone just liked the Night Lord aesthetic and the Grey Knight rules and munged them together. This is a person who cares not for fluff and simply wants the army to look a certain way and play a certain way. While I understand the reasoning, being an individual who tries hard to stay true to fluff I can't truly appreciate the effort that was put into it.

 

I mean at least using codex BA you get access to assault squads as infantry and a fast moving element with the tanks and what not. The Red Thirst makes sense for murderous tendencies, the death company could represent the extreme serial killers, etc. Is it perfect? No, probably not, but it is at least functional and has elements that can be tied to the nature of the legion. Not so much with the GK, unless I am missing something?