Greyall Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Very true, Tyr, but group behaviour is greater than the sum of its composing personalities. Specifically, it's usually formed by the dominant traits of their dominant elements in descending order, further moulded by the leader (usually the "alpha", though the term is sketchy). Hierarchy mixes this formula a bit, usually reinforcing the influence of the strong. Savage doesn't mean dumb, often the savage's perceived "lackings" come from the narrow mindedness his traditionalist and small "home universe" breeds. The rest is indeed a number of traditions, customs and behaviours that seem odd in the eyes of others. The Wolves were very narrow minded, as shown, for example, by their belief that their Warp was different and that their Librarians were shamans. The Night Lords are indeed cold-blooded killers who revel in fear, the vast majority of them. And yet Curze failed to mould them when he basically refused to be the alpha of such a pack. So their secondary traits - like being amoral outlaws - surfaced. The Imperial Fists are indeed better than most everyone else at siegecraft. As were the Iron Warriors. And Dorn made sure to specialize his Legion in such matters. The World Eaters had tanks and devastators that wouldn't charge frothing at the enemy, necessarily, but they weren't nearly as...competent...as their assault brothers. They intentionally became a cliché by emulating their father - to little effect. The Word Bearers were devout and had a genetic tendency to obey. Great combination, by the way. It's one thing to portray every single Marine as embodying his Legion's traits to a T, that's stupid. But, as a group, it makes sense for them to play to their strengths or skills. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3421967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Just read the next part of Scars, was ok still setting up the book but I get the feeling the next part will have some proper action. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3421984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Good points Greyall, it's probably just wishful thinking from my side but I kinda imagine that the lesson that Russ was trying to teach Angron also was about showing Angron how his legion could have been. But as you said, there's no telling how Angron would have been without his tragic upraising, since it affected him so much. On another point, I think Russ seems to be the most feral combatant besides Angron of the primarchs. Therefore I associate feral(or bestial) with savage, but my primary language isn't english and I might be wrong. There might be a problem with the word savage because of it's negative connotations. Edit: Just remembered the topic was about Scars, will read it now! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Little bit on Russ from Scars "Never, not until now, have I been truly angered," Russ snarled, and the twin wolves stood up at the sound, hackles raised. "I am curious to see where it takes me." Uh oh! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 That's towards the Khan? Oh boy... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 That's towards the Khan? Oh boy... Nah it's not, it's after he receives the messages concerning Istvaan V and how Horus duped him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 This should be interesting... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Hey WoT, is there still no artwork? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Not yet, only the front cover again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Hmm. You'd think the serialized version would at least get to enjoy the privileges that come with getting the super fancy editions. Then again, since there are five, give or take, per book, maybe the book just hasn't reached the first image. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 That's towards the Khan? Oh boy... Nah it's not, it's after he receives the messages concerning Istvaan V and how Horus duped him. Soooo... does he now feel guilty and remorseful? Towards you know who Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Yeah "Has such a thing happened before?" asked Russ, talking to himself rather than them, his expression caustic. "Do sagas exist in which the Wolf King was drawn to the wrong place, doing the wrong thing? Has our shame ever been greater?" His underlings then try to persuade him that they did the right thing, including Bjorn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 That's towards the Khan? Oh boy... Nah it's not, it's after he receives the messages concerning Istvaan V and how Horus duped him. Soooo... does he now feel guilty and remorseful? Towards you know who I'm sure he felt sad and guilt all along. Just before it alll went down he pleaded you know who to end it and surrender. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Thats great thanks guys. But now, why would the Wolfy wolf "executioner" feel bad about you know who when he supposedly took care of at least one of the missing legions without batting an eye? especially when he feels contemptous towards him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 It was a combination of things, being duped by Horus to do it in the first place, when at the same time three other legions were being almost wiped out, a long with at least one of his brothers, he feels they should of been there instead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Thats great thanks guys. But now, why would the Wolfy wolf "executioner" feel bad about you know who when he supposedly took care of at least one of the missing legions without batting an eye? especially when he feels contemptous towards him In another thread today it was discussed that the time the wolves were unleashed on another legion refers to night of the wolf. So it's likely they never went against any of the missing legions. Besides I don't really buy the "executioner" identity of the wolves. The source for that comes from one company within the wolves. Until Russ says "Yeah i'm the executioner" I'm skeptic about it. As far as i'm concerend it's only a reputation the wolves have and one some of them do not dismiss. I really hope we at some point will se wolves from other companies and hopefully someone with other views on their position within the Legions. I think it could be cool if the wolves were split between serveral views on what their Legion is ment to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 @WoT: That's freaking awesome, I'm all for Jaghatai being a master swordsman. As for Dorn, I think he's being too confident, to be honest. He's supposed to be one of the biggest Primarchs and yet Curze completely mauled him, even if it was by surprise. No doubt he's a great technical fighter and has church bells for knuckles, but nothing until now suggests he could take on the heaviest hitters among the Primarchs. Surprise me, Black Library. @Entei: It's hard to imagine Angron without his tragic traits and story. He's smart and deep, yes, he shows that much against Russ, but all Primarchs are. But then ALL his talks are either about killing, the nails or the Emperor's betrayal. Guilliman mocks or scorns him, but then Guilliman doesn't soil himself when he's not angry. And you know Angron's not looking for pity since that probably ranks first in things that make him eat your shoulder. What he's trying to stress is how impossibly a-holic it is for seventeen demigods who can build floating fortresses or turn cesspits into model worlds to completely spit on their brother's condition (forget joining minds to try and remove the darn things). It's not as if Angron is clingy or anything, the guy can take care of himself, he'd just like not to be treated as a [deliberate] madman each time he contacts one of his brothers. Little wonder he and Perturabo are said to have interesting conversations, Perturabo knows what being misunderstood and looked down means (it also means you get to land uppercuts when you finally snap, incidentaly). Ironically, Angron's defeat at the hands of Russ (Russ' men) and not by the Ultramarines makes perfect sense, since Guilliman's strategists play to an army's tactics, but Russ not only knows rage, he also learned how Angron and the World Eaters connect (they don't), so he played to an army's collective mind. Nice. He is a Primarch after all, he has superhuman traits. For Khan, it is a good assumption he is a great fighter himself (don't forget the ones who he was inspired from), and I love this idea. Khan too led from the front his lightning attacks and there is fluff supporting him as a fighter. Now, Russ and Khan are the ones I would say have many common points. Both are fierce and cunning leaders, both believe deeply in the idea of the Imperium and put Emperor as the proper leader for it, sense of honor and many other common points while having their differences as well. Angron isn't an idiot, simply his choice of using reason and limit to his actions is pretty low for me, be it the Butcher Nails or without them. I would also avoid any more of the "what if" scenarios about him and Russ since they are still different primarchs. So I like the way you think Greyall. I think Perturabo could have interesting conversations with anyone to be frank. Reason is his intelligence and adaptability. I too hope BL suprises us for the case of Dorn, I wouldn't like to see all his words being thin air because he was known for his honesty. I would like to see it put in action. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 For those interested in the wolves lapdog stuff there's a passage you may like. "We have Dorn's summons," said Ogvai. "Summons," spat Gunn "That is what we are for, are we not?" asked Russ wearily. "We come when called." "When the Allfather calls," corrected Ogavai. "And he is silent," said Russ. He then goes on to say they will go to Terra but not because Dorn demands it but because we choose to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I do want to see what perturabo and angron talk about since angron is still somewhat of a one facet person right now and seeing him actually communicating with someone that doesn't involve chucking them across a room would be interesting a view into his head. And dont forget that perturabo plays warhammer too :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Thats great thanks guys. But now, why would the Wolfy wolf "executioner" feel bad about you know who when he supposedly took care of at least one of the missing legions without batting an eye? especially when he feels contemptous towards him In another thread today it was discussed that the time the wolves were unleashed on another legion refers to night of the wolf. So it's likely they never went against any of the missing legions. Besides I don't really buy the "executioner" identy of the wolves. The source for that comes from one company within the wolves. Until Russ says "Yeah i'm the executioner" I'm skeptic about it. As far as i'm concerend it's only a reputation the wolves have and one some of them do not dismiss. I really hope we at some point will se wolves from other companies and hopefully someone with other views on their position within the Legions. I think it could be cool if the wolves were split between serveral views on what their Legion is ment to be. Well to be fair, I said it was possible since the Night of the Wolf did fit the criteria concerning some of the fluff regarding the Executioner theme, like them being unleashed before Prospero, taking action in a widely known, and yet rarely talked about event and them having a history of being willing and able to fight other Astartes in open combat. But I can no more prove it than one can prove that the missing Legions were indeed executed. For all we know, the missing Primarchs never left Terra and were instead killed by the warp storm. Or that they suffered genetic mishaps like the Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons, but never recovered from it and became extinct and the respective Primarchs went into self-exile, which is why the Emperor still keeps a room for each of them in the Imperial Palace. Or maybe it was a joint action by the War Hounds and the Space Wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I just wish it was the war hounds who did it instead for the sheer pleasure of seeing them ripping apart those legions. with some dubstep in the background maybes back to the scars i want to see how jaghatai reacts to the 'crazies' i.e. angron, curze, and the wolves because he was pretty cool with what he said about angron. props to him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Ooh! I hate making myself wait until the hardcover is published! @Tyr: looking at my post, it looks like I may have come off as aggressive. That was not my intent. I was just merely pointing out that what I said was supposition and while it may be based on facts, it is based on how the facts are presented and so it is circumstantial, not conclusive was all. Apologies in advance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 What does he say about Angron? I cant justify buying this in chunks... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 @scribe well its in the HH betrayal book but he says something to the effect of "not to judge those on a path on which the winds of fate decreed that they had never themselves walked, nor ever could" so he means that angron does his share in compliance and does a good job despite his methods and the other legions shouldn't judge him because he is burdened by the nails and Nuceria Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Ahhh ok, thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/page/10/#findComment-3422726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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