Scars

[Hyaenidae]

To be fair, I'm going to be getting it every week. I don't mind the way it's being sold, it's something to look forward to every week and I don't mind paying "extra" as I won't really notice it personally. If anyone wants the spoilers let me know.

I WANT THOSE SPOILERS!!!

Just saying

Seconded.

I'm a cheapskate. :P

[b1soul]

Really, the Khan was the awesome character?

 

 

Yes really...Shiban was a mtultidimensional character who served as a window into his legion's soul

[Conn Eremon]

Shiban? He was a very flat character. He was nothing more than his Legion and home world's most obvious traits amplified to eleven while all other traits idle at zero. His whole story arc was about being so fast that they could catch up with their Primarch, the fastest fast guy of all the fast guys, because he's from Chogoris and that's just what they do, no matter how many of his own men fall unnecessarily. The Terran Captain had character. He had a personality, some conflict, some strengths and flaws. His story arc actually showed us his progress, while the Khan's was merely told to us and never shown. I'm not exactly sure how the Khan got to his position, considering his Brotherhood survived solely because of the actions of the Terran Captain. He would have killed off his own Brotherhood if not for the Terran's attempts to keep up and consolidate.

[b1soul]

Shiban? He was a very flat character. He was nothing more than his Legion and home world's most obvious traits amplified to eleven while all other traits idle at zero.

 

 

I'd have to disagree. Being a good representation of Chogorian White Scars doesn't necessarily make Shiban a flat character.

 

The Scars are not stereotypical Mongol savages...neither are they completely modeled on historical Mongols. Through the voice of Shiban, Chris Wraight has given us a very unique legion. We don't even know if Shiban's philosophical views are shared by all of the Chogorian members of the legion. He's acknowledged to be more of poet (and I'm guessing, more of a philosopher/thinker) than most of his brothers.

 

You can tell from Shiban's narration that he values being true to one's nature. I think the Scars have a very strong sense of identity and take great pride and enjoyment in how they conduct war. They're not quite as versatile or as adaptable as other legions...but they're very good at what they do. I find the Scars' philosophy to be quite unique. Therefore, Shiban isn't a flat character to me because I find the the attitude and ideas introduced by his internal monologue to be quite interesting

 

Below is a summary of some of the themes and ideas present in the novella. I gleaned most of them from reading Shiban's arc.

 

 

The WS delight in expressing their uninhibited nature, their style of

battle is wild and free. They are truly the "laughing killers", perhaps

finding more joy in battle than any other legion. Their love of speed

goes hand in hand with their love of freedom and open spaces. They get a

thrill out of "lightning warfare", viewing it as the most beautiful way

to make war. War to them is almost an expression of their souls. An art more than a science.

 

Their way of thinking shows a penchant for poetry and mysticism.

They are less practical than the Wolves. The Scars view war as an

expression of their souls. Staying true to their philosophy and to their

own nature seems to outweigh maximising of efficiency. That is, the

Scars would rather fight in their way (the way they enjoy) than

in a more efficient way they don't enjoy.

 

They respect strong enemies, even xenos (the Scars are quite fond

of the Orks as worthy foes). Shiban even remarked that the mighty Ork

warlord slain by the Khan didn't deserve such a pitiful death.

 

The book does a great job of highlighting the strengths and

weaknesses of the legion. They're extremely skilled at what they do, but

they're also shown to be rather set in their ways and slow/unwilling to

adopt change. I'm sure the Scars would be competent at other styles of

warfare, but they truly aren't what I'd call a versatile legion. They

have more of a "specialist" mentality, exhibiting a strong inclination

to stick to what they enjoy/are best at.

 

The book gives us an insight to Jaghatai Khan and his relationship

with the legion. The Khan comes across as a bit haughty and cold, a

ruthless, ambitious warlord in line with the more negative portrayals of

Genghis Khan. He's almost like a cross between Fulgrim and Russ, though

I'm sure Mr. Wraight will cast more light on the Khan's personality in

the future. The Khan is constantly on the move and his warriors view him

as the epitome, the perfect embodiment of all the values they hold

dear.

 

The Khan is described as always at the centre, which, I think, not

only means that the Khan is usually where the fighting is most crucial

(the heart of the storm, so to speak) but also that the Khan is the

centre and his army must follow. The WS

don't have stationery bases. They're supremely mobile and

self-sufficient (like historical Mongol warriors). Thus wherever their

Khan is, that is the legion's centre.

 

[GhostMalone]

Ill agree with that, if the scars had a decent face bitz pack I would try do them justice.

 

They aren't bound by typical traditions such as IF UM DA and so on.

 

They are more human then salamanders.

Warriors in the truest aspect

[Greyall]

While I didn't read any of the HH Scars novels, I'm going to have to somewhat disagree with you, Jaspcat.

 

From what we already know and the account above by b1soul, they seem to be very traditionalist and, while that's not exactly the same as having traditions (in the ritual sort of way), I'd very surprised if they don't have some deep-set customs.

 

When you say 'more human than salamanders', what do you mean? That they behave like regular humans, or that they pay closer attention to their people?

[GhostMalone]

Ill agree on the ritual part, I was meaning more militaristic rituals, as for more human I was meaning they don't try suppress themselves as other saturates do

[Greyall]

Then we are in agreement =)

 

Kind of sad the Scars are so far down the FW road, they'll make for some terrific minis, I'm sure. Plus I'm looking forward to their Heretic/Loyal debate. How exactly is the Khan so divided on the matter, is it purely because of his friendship with Horus and (from what I perceive) general distance from other Primarchs? Because distance does not have to equal outright detachment, especially for someone who seems to be regarded by his brothers as tremendously competent at what they do, if a little too ruthless. But then Angron is accepted, at the end of the day.

[Emperor's Furor]

Apparently Horus is the only Primarch the Khan is remotely close to, if you go by the novella.

 

Key points of the first novella 

 

 

The Terran captain was once an aspirant who was 26th or 27th in his "graduating" class and because of this despite being ear marked by the Luna Wolves (he has little meeting with one after an endurance test) they were forced to reassign him to another legion.

 

This legion being the White Scars, which he didn't agree with although he said the wolves of fenris, or war hounds could of been worse, he didn't like the fact that the other aspirants for that legion were mainly from asia (he felt in an age of enlightenment they should of moved beyond ethnic or racial stereotyping) he didn't agree with their style of war "No backward step" was the luna wolves motto where as the white scars was "Withdraw then return", he had trouble with their language, he basically had a hard time adjusting to their ways.

 

As to the Chogoris captain he was found after fighting off three figures which he'd stolen from and was chosen to be an aspirant, it's confirmed that the white scars also dedicate themselves to other aspects of life, such as poetry etc he goes with that, as stated before this guy appears to be a very model of what a chogorisian white scar is.

 

[Greyall]

Whoa, cool, so we finally get into the mind of a Terran Marine faced with adapting to their Legion. Interesting that Terra has sort of a production line for all Legions, I thought the Terran marines had stopped after those first Union War Astartes were delivered to their respective Primarch.

 

So, that means the Terran captain even has a hard time having that "whoathatsmygenefatherandhesawesome" feel every Astartes seems to have when in the presence of his primarch?

 

As to the loyalty thing, maybe that's just me, but I'll defend my best friend up to a certain (though high) moral standard, once past it, I can no longer call him that. On that matter, Ferrus took the right decision by trying to kill Fulgrim. I guess the Khan has a more deep-rooted sense of friendship and is a lot less rational about it.

[Emperor's Furor]

Whoa, cool, so we finally get into the mind of a Terran Marine faced with adapting to their Legion. Interesting that Terra has sort of a production line for all Legions, I thought the Terran marines had stopped after those first Union War Astartes were delivered to their respective Primarch.

 

So, that means the Terran captain even has a hard time having that "whoathatsmygenefatherandhesawesome" feel every Astartes seems to have when in the presence of his primarch?

 

As to the loyalty thing, maybe that's just me, but I'll defend my best friend up to a certain (though high) moral standard, once past it, I can no longer call him that. On that matter, Ferrus took the right decision by trying to kill Fulgrim. I guess the Khan has a more deep-rooted sense of friendship and is a lot less rational about it.

 

 

He's yet to meet the Primarch so I'm not sure how he'd respond, up to this point he's been accepted into the legion and changed his name as tradition dictates by the legion. In the Novella, Horus and Khan have a discussion at one point and Khan gets a sense Horus was alluding to something coming, by the end of the novella it appears the treachery is announced to the Khan and he has a depressing look to him, the decision he makes is yet to be announced, I'm assuming it will happen in this series of ebooks

 

[High MarshalGR]

From what I am aware of, the White Scars and Jaghatai Khan remained loyal to the Emperor because of the deep faith Khan had in the Emperor uniting the stars just as he did at Chogoris (Index Astartes I I think). I could be wrong, but Khan was really loyal not only to the ideal of uniting the stars under one common banner, but also in the Emperor as the one who had everything in order to achieve it. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Porbz arguing over abandoning their brother wolves, heading back to Terra and what not leaving them open to the Alphas, will probz portray their pain and anguish but will have them speeding back to Terra and putting up the mother of all counter attacks/ take backs over the traitor legions for a space port that halved the traitors ability to land reinforcements. 

[Trank]

Anyone knows if they will release an ebook latter with the complete novell or I need to buy it now , just want all episodes in one file.

 

Besides preferences, the ebooks make possible the get the books if you live in a distant country. It would be impossible to get everything without downloads here (Brazil).

 

And, sorry for that: I would love this in an audiobook format too.

[Kol Saresk]

A complete e-book and an audio will be released with the hardback in February. The serialized version is just for the people who want it ASAP and don't mind paying for it in bits.

[Trank]

A complete e-book and an audio will be released with the hardback in February. The serialized version is just for the people who want it ASAP and don't mind paying for it in bits.

Thanks.

[Ash Da Flash]

 This drawing goes nowhere, is strengthless and suggest some mess in a legume open market.

"Buy my potatoes !" shouts the Primarch while all Astartes bicker miserably about the day prices...

 

Oh lordy, this made me LOL.

 

Rgarding the scars, they did not have much to them apart from "biker mongols" basically. The grunting, primative way the Scars librarian spoke during the council of nikea (in the HH Thousand Sons novel) was downright racist, Brotherhood of the Storm was decent though.

[Emperor's Furor]

It's explained why, they struggle with learning new languages, it's not because they are barbaric, their own language is meant to be quite poetical and it's said in the first part of Scars that when there's nothing but wide grassy plains to explore then they explore themselves and in doing so their language is a lot more complicated than most languages.

[b1soul]

 Because distance does not have to equal outright detachment, especially for someone who seems to be regarded by his brothers as tremendously competent at what they do, if a little too ruthless. But then Angron is accepted, at the end of the day.

 

 

On the subjct of Angron...it seems that Jaghatai is the only primarch who doesn't judge him. He says something to the effect of "Do not judge Angron for you have not trod his path".

 

I think this fits very well with the White Scars attitude of staying true to oneself. The Scars probably believe thaat every legion and every primarch possesses an inherent nature that is difficult to change. Angron is simply who he is. He is simply behaving according to his nature, which may have been involuntarily modified by the Butcher's Nails. He is what he is. Could he be anything else? Probably not 

 

When you say 'more human than salamanders', what do you mean? That they

behave like regular humans, or that they pay closer attention to their

people?

 

I think they're the most human in the sense that they enjoy life more than any other space marines. They appreciate the beauty of warfare and respect the worthiness of strong foes. They're love to live and fight their own way. They don't try to suppress their inclinations or change who they are

[High MarshalGR]

 

 Because distance does not have to equal outright detachment, especially for someone who seems to be regarded by his brothers as tremendously competent at what they do, if a little too ruthless. But then Angron is accepted, at the end of the day.

 

 

On the subjct of Angron...it seems that Jaghatai is the only primarch who doesn't judge him. He says something to the effect of "Do not judge Angron for you have not trod his path".

 

I think this fits very well with the White Scars attitude of staying true to oneself. The Scars probably believe thaat every legion and every primarch possesses an inherent nature that is difficult to change. Angron is simply who he is. He is simply behaving according to his nature, which may have been involuntarily modified by the Butcher's Nails. He is what he is. Could he be anything else? Probably not 

 

>When you say 'more human than salamanders', what do you mean? That they

behave like regular humans, or that they pay closer attention to their

people?

 

I think they're the most human in the sense that they enjoy life more than any other space marines. They appreciate the beauty of warfare and respect the worthiness of strong foes. They're love to live and fight their own way. They don't try to suppress their inclinations or change who they are

 

Pretty nice point. This is what I really like about White Scars. For me, they aren't savage at all. They judge their own selves.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

BoTS established that Horus and Jaghatai were very, very close, but Jaghatai and the Emperor were not. 

[High MarshalGR]

BoTS established that Horus and Jaghatai were very, very close, but Jaghatai and the Emperor were not. 

 

Obviously they were closer (after all, he was the Warmaster. It's only logical.) but I think Index Astartes refers to Jaghatai Khan being a real believer of the unification of mankind through the stars under the mighty banner, and saw the Emperor as the man capable of achieving such a feat and maintaining it. He was also a man of his word and oath, so he didn't really fit into the role of a betrayer me thinks.

[Emperor's Furor]

He had an oath with Horus though that he'd always come when Horus called for him, that's why there's a problem, does he keep with the Emperor or does he keep his oath and follow Horus

[High MarshalGR]

He had an oath with Horus though that he'd always come when Horus called for him, that's why there's a problem, does he keep with the Emperor or does he keep his oath and follow Horus

 

History says he remained true to his first oath. Horus wasn't the same man he was once after the events on Davin. For me, it was a simple decision for Jaghatai to make: Follow your initial oath to the Emperor who kept his word and followed his dream to the very end, or keep an oath to the one who broke his own, thus shaming himself as a man and a warrior? I think Jaghatai remained true to the one who kept his honor, thus he remained loyal. Me thinks he found his brother's betrayal shameful because he was false to his word.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

'For all that, believe me, I am shamed by this, brother,' said Horus, looking apologetic.

'You should not be,' said the Khan.

'If there had been any other choice...'

'You do not have to explain. In any case, I have already given you my word.'

Horus looked at the Khan gratefully.

'I know,' said the Warmaster. 'Your word means a great deal. To our Father, too, I am sure.'

The Khan raised an eyebrow, and Horus laughed.

p 151, BoTS

Certainly possible that I'm reading in to it too much, but doesn't seem like there was a good history of 'keeping promises' between Khan and Emps.