Scars Episode XI Updated 16/10 (Spoilers)

[Emperor's Furor]

 

 

.Shiban already began to believe that legionaries had attacked each other, after investing what killed the white scars on the volcano planet, a single knife wound down the neck. It was suggested by one of his squad that perhaps they fought amongst themselves, but he wasn't so sure.

 

 

 

Sloppy job by the Alphas, you'd think they'd try to make it looks less suspicious...unless of course these Alphas were instructed to make it look less suspicious by one Alpha primarch but they purposefully wanted to alert the White Scars because they're actually loyal to the other Alpha primarch. This is too much for my brain to...I can't...I AM ALPHARIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

>Scars are awesome, but not "smack around two other Legions" awesome.

 

Of course not, only the SW can do that. I mean they executed the two lost legions, haven't you heard?

 

They expected the lava and volcanic eruptions to mask them but they didn't fully, they kind of preserved them like Pompeii.

[High MarshalGR]

Bit strange for the Khan to be sort of needed.. I'd have though Malcador would need Guilliman more.. Still more spanners in the works and more interesting plot lines.. Would Horus be that scared of Russ and the Khan? If so why?

 

Guilliman was in a galaxy far, far away falling in traps and engaging vs other traitors so there was no way to have his presence there whatsoever.

 

Russ and Khan are reasons to be afraid of. Russ has one of the most well-versed Legions in the Imperium capable of adjusting to any type of warfare and opponents along with his other pros. Khan is an artist when it comes down to war and an important asset in counter attacks, which makes him a formidable opponent. That, along with the fact they are honourable and they don't sh1t on oaths they give are good reasons for me.

 

The khans unpredictability the size of his legion and the fact that killing is art for them. They strike like lightning causing severe damage in their wake.

 

They are the epitome of lightning warfare, he has trained his legion to fight not just one enemy but multiple enemies at once, as he said in episode 3 regicide is focusing on one objective, whereas his game focuses on multiple enemies.

 

Gulliman is already trying to ensure his slice of the imperium doesn't fall, he is trying to keep his glories in tact whilst still thwarting the enemies plans.

 

The khan though knows that everything rises and falls, they don't care for holding ground. The perfect person to have defending terra as he will allow objectives be taken hit from another side and retake it.

 

At least that's how I see it

 

Guilliman incorporated Khan's teachings about the lighting strike warfare in the Codex, which shows he recognises the worth of Khan's ways but not totally. He isn't ensuring only his slice, his slice was engaged multiple times due to his Legion's strength in numbers and efficiency, which could alone turn the tides of battle against Horus. But Horus was no fool and devoted many factors in fighting UM and keeping them at bay. 

[Greyall]

I really can't see a basis for a 'Guilliman securing his slice' theory other than Lion El'Jonson's accusations. Sure, before we got to read Know no Fear and Betrayer we might've had reasons to at least be suspicious, and I'm not saying it wouldn't make for an interesting story.

 

But the 'duller' reality is that Guilliman is an extremely loyal son and brother who happens to rationalize a bit too much for some of his more impulsive brothers. The Lion is a notoriously bitter and jealous personality with no social skills whatsoever who hides behind his also unwavering loyalty and immense warfare skills to seem as well adjusted as Dorn, Horus or Guilliman.

Sanguinius, who we know won't like the idea of an Imperium Secundus, is blindly loyal, being paranoid about his sons' flaw and his own inner demons and therefore being incapable of taking the rational route.

Vulkan will probably agree with Sanguinius, methinks, but it remains to be seen.

 

What matter is, all the insight we've had on Guilliman shows us a man who never reaches for anything else but the best forHumanity and his father's dream. Why I say dream and not humanity is because Guilliman is capable of seeing beyond the current rules of the Imperium, understanding what they're aiming for. That's why he's 'securing his cut' - although we don't even know why he isn't coming to Terra - he assumes Ultramar is the last and best bastion against Horus if the Emperor is dead. Agree or disagree, it makes perfect sense since, had the traitors already killed Big E, Terra would be a slaughterhouse for any Legions rushing to save their daddy.

[High MarshalGR]

I really can't see a basis for a 'Guilliman securing his slice' theory other than Lion El'Jonson's accusations. Sure, before we got to read Know no Fear and Betrayer we might've had reasons to at least be suspicious, and I'm not saying it wouldn't make for an interesting story.

 

But the 'duller' reality is that Guilliman is an extremely loyal son and brother who happens to rationalize a bit too much for some of his more impulsive brothers. The Lion is a notoriously bitter and jealous personality with no social skills whatsoever who hides behind his also unwavering loyalty and immense warfare skills to seem as well adjusted as Dorn, Horus or Guilliman.

Sanguinius, who we know won't like the idea of an Imperium Secundus, is blindly loyal, being paranoid about his sons' flaw and his own inner demons and therefore being incapable of taking the rational route.

Vulkan will probably agree with Sanguinius, methinks, but it remains to be seen.

 

What matter is, all the insight we've had on Guilliman shows us a man who never reaches for anything else but the best forHumanity and his father's dream. Why I say dream and not humanity is because Guilliman is capable of seeing beyond the current rules of the Imperium, understanding what they're aiming for. That's why he's 'securing his cut' - although we don't even know why he isn't coming to Terra - he assumes Ultramar is the last and best bastion against Horus if the Emperor is dead. Agree or disagree, it makes perfect sense since, had the traitors already killed Big E, Terra would be a slaughterhouse for any Legions rushing to save their daddy.

 

That sums it up, but I'll go one bit further. I do accept that Guilliman was a big shot. The difference is that he wasn't an egoistical big shot unlike Horus. He knew he was great at the art of war, administration, efficiency, logistics and used them all towards the benefit of the Imperium, fair and square. He was the man of the "big picture", and he knew that. When I speaked of "his slice" Greyall, I meant he went administrative on a part of the Imperium. This, when thought about, is really relieving for the bureocracy and the management of the whole Imperium. I mean, he created a "sub-machine" as a part of the machine (Imperium), not a second machine in itself. He was known for his passion for fair goverment and he proved it more than once.

 

The reason for the Lion's accusations are for me his ego. He views Guilliman as another enemy to the chair of the Warmaster, to his rise in power so he must "kill" him no matter the means in order to have less opponents.

 

Also, the fluff isn't yet 100% accurate and conclusive as far as UM whereabouts entirely. But for a genius like Horus, multiple opponents vs the powerful (250k SMs if I recall correctly) UM is the best course of action, "keep them at bay while we fight".

[calgar101]

100% agree with you there High Marshal, every time that Guilliman is mentioned in the series so far (bar one or two times) I feel he is being made out to be a 'big shot'. Ultramar was a mini-Imperium, as Khârn said in Betrayer (I think) Guilliman had turned an entire sub-sector in to a model of Imperial rule.

[Entei]

In my mind Guilliman probably wanted to make the imperium similar to ancient Greece, where the power was decentralised into smaller city-states that mostly worked independent of each other, but whose loyalty lay with the country. Each primarch would rule his own sub-imperium, but also answer to the Emperor. Unified, but without one single person having all the power. That's my interpretation, but I may be wrong.

[Greyall]

His measures after the Heresy certainly suggest so. And, truth be told, this being Guilliman, he certainly had pondered on the consequences of a Legion going rogue. Especially since at least one of the Lost Legions had to be terminated.

 

@Marshal, I agree with both your last post and the one in which you first mentioned 'slice', but it's a common accusation made to Guilliman on some threads and, frankly, it's pretty much baseless unless he does a complete moral flip in Unremembered Empire.

[calgar101]

It is only the Lion who has made accusations against Guillimans intent, Corax in Soul Forge on the other hand comments how he has not heard from Guilliman but knows he would be fighting Horus.

[The Broker]

His measures after the Heresy certainly suggest so. And, truth be told, this being Guilliman, he certainly had pondered on the consequences of a Legion going rogue. Especially since at least one of the Lost Legions had to be terminated.

 

@Marshal, I agree with both your last post and the one in which you first mentioned 'slice', but it's a common accusation made to Guilliman on some threads and, frankly, it's pretty much baseless unless he does a complete moral flip in Unremembered Empire.

 

His censure of an Astartes for theorising doctrines for fighting other Astartes suggests he hadn't.

[Greyall]

Won't lie, I'm assuming based on his very rational, super-prepared nature.

 

But it's reasonable to assume he didn't want more frail minds - other than his - harbouring such thoughts.

 

Look at Sanguinius, he's the superlative loyal son/brother and even so he doesn't outright kill the Blood Angel (name forgotten) who suggests Horus is behind Signus Prime. Because the idea did make sense to him. Same with Dorn and Garro.

 

Primarchs deal with each other's moods, dreams and goals everytime, if animosity grows between them, certainly the thought of having to fight one another has, too - in fact, they did fight before the Heresy.

 

Also, wasn't there a story in which an Ultramarine was training to fight other Astartes? One of those were Salamanders, whose Primarch Guilliman certainly saw as one of the most loyal. Still he prepared.

[daveNYC]

That story is set after Calth, and in KNF Guilliman is about to punish one of his Astartes who had suggested that the Ultramarines practice strategies and tactics for fighting other Astartes.  So Guilliman did prepare to fight other Legions, but only after it became clear that he would have to fight other Legions.

 

The authors are going to have to do some work if they want to sell the Space Wolves as a serious threat post-Prospero (or just dial back their threat level).  They were already one of the smaller legions, and the losses they suffered at Prospero must have been horrendous (they fought, among other things, a literally flaming Warlord titan).  I don't want to think about the frothing at the mouth that will result if a legion that's in the 20k-30k range is still considered a deadly threat to legions that have been barely touched by the fighting.

[The Broker]

That story is set after Calth, and in KNF Guilliman is about to punish one of his Astartes who had suggested that the Ultramarines practice strategies and tactics for fighting other Astartes.  So Guilliman did prepare to fight other Legions, but only after it became clear that he would have to fight other Legions.

 

The authors are going to have to do some work if they want to sell the Space Wolves as a serious threat post-Prospero (or just dial back their threat level).  They were already one of the smaller legions, and the losses they suffered at Prospero must have been horrendous (they fought, among other things, a literally flaming Warlord titan).  I don't want to think about the frothing at the mouth that will result if a legion that's in the 20k-30k range is still considered a deadly threat to legions that have been barely touched by the fighting.

 

The only legions that have been barely affected by the fighting are the Imperial Fists (Phall aside), the White Scars(we don't know how many they lost fighting the AL yet).

 

I can't recall figures being given for the losses suffered by the Blood Angels at Signus Prime, but I'd imagine they were fairly heavy, similiar with Thramas.

 

All traitor legions had to purge their own ranks, and we know that this took a heavy toll on them from the opening trilogy. We also know that the Drop Site Massacres took a heavy toll on the traitors.

 

Word Bearers/World Eaters lost a lot of men in the Ultramar Shadow Crusade.

 

Iron Warriors - don't think they've paid a massive toll yet - funnily enough. But they're in charge of breaching the walls of the Imperial Palace, so they'll bleed before the heresy ends.

 

Night Lords were smashed by the Thramas Crusade.

 

Sons of Horus/Emperor's Children/World Eaters purged their own ranks and lost men at the Drop Site Massacres.

 

Thousand Sons lost men to the flesh change and the burning of Prospero.

 

20-30k Marines, with a Primarch in tow, that has just found they were deceived by a traitor, is no force to be trifled with. They're hardened to killing other Astartes and come packing Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

 

No effort whatsoever to see how they couldn't be a threat to the other crippled legions.

[Wade Garrett]

The Word Bearers lost their entire task force at Calth (insofar as Kor Phaeron and the survivors didn't stop running until they hit the Maelstrom and don't seem to have contributed anything to the rest of the Heresy) but overall the Shadow Crusade was a glorious win for them and Angron's crew.

 

I will concede the World Eaters probably took a beating, because, well, World Eaters.

[daveNYC]

Only the known legions would have taken heavy losses at Istvaan.  The second wave traitors (AL, NL, IW, and WB) would have had casualties, but basically had a turkey shoot against the Salamanders, RG, IH, and whoever, and in the context of this story they'll be dealing with AL and the Scars, both of which are in solid shape.

 

Anyway I'm biased against anything that feeds the idea that the Wolves are totally awesome Astartes killers.  That way leads to the ninth circle of fanboy hell.

[calgar101]

The Custodes that were with the Wolves did they manage to get to Terra? Was Valdor with them? Be funny to see the Emperor's chief security man not be there :P

[Emperor's Furor]

Afaik the Iron Hands lost their first company, the rest of the legion hadn't turned up yet and there's a story where some elements of the rest of the legion turn up, only to turn tail and leg it.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm curious, though. What does that mean for the Hands of Iron? They have Clans, self-supported. They don't exactly have the normal Firsts are Vets organization, do they? They have a major Clan, that Santar leads, which is their elite. But was that whole Clan lost? Just that Clan's First Company, if they had one? You know what I mean? If someone had said the Sons of Horus lost their whole First Company, I'd know they meant Abaddon, Ekaddon, the Justaerin and the Catulan Reavers. Blood Angels or Ultramarines had First Chapters, so I'd wonder if they meant the Chapter, or that Chapter's First Company. But the Iron Hands, Space Wolves and White Scars don't have numerical companies. So what does losing your first company mean to them?

[Adra'Melek]

Wasn't the BL book around Isstvan V written when the Legions were tens of thousands rather than 100s? I think we'll have to wait until Massacre before we really know. Betrayal was pretty good for giving generally numbers.

[Emperor's Furor]

I'm curious, though. What does that mean for the Hands of Iron? They have Clans, self-supported. They don't exactly have the normal Firsts are Vets organization, do they? They have a major Clan, that Santar leads, which is their elite. But was that whole Clan lost? Just that Clan's First Company, if they had one? You know what I mean? If someone had said the Sons of Horus lost their whole First Company, I'd know they meant Abaddon, Ekaddon, the Justaerin and the Catulan Reavers. Blood Angels or Ultramarines had First Chapters, so I'd wonder if they meant the Chapter, or that Chapter's First Company. But the Iron Hands, Space Wolves and White Scars don't have numerical companies. So what does losing your first company mean to them?]

I think perhaps they drew drawn from different clans, Santar was Avernii I think. Since they were named the Morlocks I assumed it was Ferrus's own personal elite drawn from across the clan companies etc.

[DuskRaider]

Well, Betrayal does give an idea of the size of each Legion present on Isstvan III. Death Guard were around 95,000, World Eaters were 150,000 or so, as were Sons of Horus from what I remember. Emperor's Children I don't recall. World Eaters took a massive loss, Death Guard lost around 1/3 of the Legion. So you're already looking at roughly 65,000 Death Guard alone on Isstvan V, for example... Now how many losses the Traitors suffered at Isstvan V we don't know yet, but I'm willing to bet it wasn't a whole heck of a lot, especially when the second wave dropped down. 

[GhostMalone]

Iirc they started as massive retreat almost straight away, pulling RG Sallies & IH into the urgall depression where the DG WE SoH & EC had heavy fortifications.

 

The WE were held back till right before the traitors landed on the other side and trapped them in the urgall depression. Horus was making it look like they were fighting but in reality he was trying to minimise losses as any more depletion of troop strength would render the heresy useless if your dropping to half strength.

[Augustus]

The Council at Nikaea happened decades before the Heresy ... Jaghatai didn't hear about the ruling at all? 

 

Actually it happens right after Ullanor. Horus falls after 2 years or so of that. Then everything hits the fan. The book mentions how there have been times when the Scars have been incommunicado for years and the actually enjoyed it. 

 

Yeah Valdor was with Russ and is now back with at Terra. Moves pretty quick, eh?

 

Basically this book should take place earlier than many of the others. The scene with them on Terra is before Deliverance Lost. and possibly Outcast Dead. (again going on this scene)

[GhostMalone]

“Some… overlap. The Wolves boast of it. We have difficulties in past because of it. Others assume that we were the same. They see ritual marks, the scars, and make judgement.’ Halji winced as he spoke, as though he were ashamed of it all. ‘We are not savages. We do not wish to be seen as savages.”

 

Excerpt From: Wraight, Chris. “Scars: Episode IV.”

 

Lets just say this clears up a couple of arguments

 

 

Edit: “We may not be “executioners” or “world eaters” or “the perfect”, but we are what we are.”

[Conn Eremon]

Interesting. The Scars and the Wolves both come from tribal backgrounds, but neither are actually savage. However, the Wolves deliberately cultivate the image while the Scars attempt, unsuccessfully, to be rid of it.

 

I say unsuccessfully because the Brotherhood of the Storm book was more about mysticism and primitive tribalism than the Wolf books.

[GhostMalone]

Also the ending if episode 4 was an eye opener seems that the scars are much smarter than there made out to be and the khan is becoming more relateable and not just an enigma