The current state of Blood Angels

[Morticon]

Chap, I was thinking the same thing (though, trying to be diplomatic )

I guess its greatest strength is that even if the ravens go down, in turn 2 (usually) the enemy will have 5terms, corbs and a libby, Mephy and a snippy dread in their lines- assuming the dread survives. The 3++ saves will make sure that most of the terms survive. And then you have some jumper support. I think its really scary, but still...im unconvinced as to it working all the time, so match ups must have been favourable, or things must have gotten a bit lucky (that includes the assumption that he's also a very good player!). I can see this list rolling some lists - but just getting smashed by others.

[BloodTzar]

I have been running very similar list, even in 5th, but with all the new codexes it is becoming very fragile.

 

I run:

 

HQ:

Meph

 

ELITES:

5xTH/SS 

Corbs, Priest (JP,Axe)

Fragy~ in DP -OR- SR

 

TROOPS:

10xASM(2melta,Axe)

10xASM(2melta,naked)

7xDC (bolters, PF,Axe+BP) ~ in DP -OR- SR

 

HEAVY:

2x SR(MM,AC-one has EA just for the points)

 

*PS: sorry cannot find the spoiler thingy for the list, if someone with the rights can do this for me, thank you*

 

My last few games I was able only to tie, just because I have lost both SR early on. However when they are living trough the game they can wreak havoc. Overall i find this very scissors type of list (as its not durable as rock, nor flexible like paper)

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Its possible he banked on them not running anti-air to save points precisely because everyone sees flyers as dead v Tau

 

So, basically, either way he scored lucky :P

[Memento Of Prospero]

It's threat overload list. Interceptor cannot prevent the delivery, and it trumps it with a catch 22. It's very clever and it's also how I play corbulo against interceptor lists.

 

Whenever your ravens show up, you dash them down field and deploy contents via skies of blood. Your opponent can interceptor your ravens if he wants, but they have already done thier job. So he either shoots the ravens now or takes unscathe deathstar to the face next turn.

[knife&fork]

But it doesn't have a lot of threats for a threat overload list? You've got Mephiston who isn't nearly as hot as he used to be, a dread that if he makes it into combat can be one-shotted by a meltabomb and a minimal squad of hammernators. 

[Memento Of Prospero]

Really? You are dropping meph, hammernators, a libby corbs, 7 DC and a snippy dread and two storm ravens as support. Thats more than most can chew.

[BloodTzar]

To be honest it is not as "hot" as it seems on paper, as I have mentioned it is very dice-dependent list. There have been games when no SR has showed at T2 (which is crucial part of the list to make it work) even with corbs re-roll. The list it self might work against you at some point, as you give the advantage to your opponent while dividing your forces too much.

[knife&fork]

I don't think so.

Best case scenario is everything arriving at the same time, where you want it, with zero mishaps and no losses from intercept. Even then you would face at least one shooting phase, any counter charges as well as overwatch. 

 

It can work (obviously) but there will be lot's of luck involved and you have many poor matchups. The more common Raven wing builds for example would eat you alive as long he keeps the banner alive for at least one turn. 

[Memento Of Prospero]

The strength of this list is the ability to choose where you are going to strike. This means you csn use terrain to your advantage, and force your opponent to castle up. Intercept can nullified by skies of blood if you deploy rhe unit far enough from the stormraven's final position. That means he just wastes his shooting on the raven and leaves your unit unscathe.

 

You are looking at this way too much in a vaccum. Every list has counters. That's not really a valid arguement unless that counter is the most played And DA ravenwing are not.

[Memento Of Prospero]

And even then that DA army has no anti air asides from twin linked plasma talons. You come in zooming, and next urn switch to hover disembark and charge. Mephiston will eat bikers all day.

[Jolemai]

It looks like this:

Mephiston

Libby

5x Terms -4x TH/SS

Snippioso

Corbs

Jump Priest

10x Jumpers- 2xflmer, 1x PS

10x Jumpers- 2xflmer, 1x PS

5x ASM in Flamerback- Flamer

Raven- extra armour

Raven- extra armour

Pretty cool list. I'm impressed he got the jumpers to work. Those overladen ravens are just insane, though - suprised they werent shot out of the sky with all the Tau there.

Cheers Morticon. I didn't have time to edit out the points on that link...

[knife&fork]

 

You are looking at this way too much in a vaccum. 

 

I don't think I am. In fact I try to play out different scenarios in my head when thinking about these things. 

 

What we have here is vulnerable to volume of fire (low AP fire especially) and superior mobility. Things like Raven Wing and Eldar have both of these. Tau certainly have volume of fire.

 

As for the RW example a good RW list is light on plasma (it's a trap!) but packs a ton of melta and bolter shots. Lots of small units is a liability in KP missions but excellent when facing death stars/semi death stars with weak or 0 shooting like the buffed hammernators or Mephiston. Just screen with a small squad or single attack bike and concentrate fire when they overkill the unit in CC.  

[BloodTzar]

To be honest, eldar serpant spam can crush this list to pieces, just because of spiders being able to get ravens, and volume of rending fire. However I have won almost every time against DA raven spam (I have to admit dice gods favored me), bolters are not that scary with 3+/FNP.

 

Moreover, I have to admit it is not the easiest list as you have to plan your steps carefully, and you are very luck dependent.

[Chaplain Admetus]

Chap, I was thinking the same thing (though, trying to be diplomatic )

Yeah... sorry. Having a bad couple of days, so diplomacy's kinda gone the way of mead at a Space Wolf banquet....

The way to beat it is just to beat up on the troops though. 25 ASM aren't exactly survivable, especially without FnP support. Just trash those and leave the BA with no way to score.

[BloodTzar]

Chap, I was thinking the same thing (though, trying to be diplomatic )

Yeah... sorry. Having a bad couple of days, so diplomacy's kinda gone the way of mead at a Space Wolf banquet....

The way to beat it is just to beat up on the troops though. 25 ASM aren't exactly survivable, especially without FnP support. Just trash those and leave the BA with no way to score.

He has 2 priests

However my biggest concern in that list would be no melta/plasma so he would have trouble opening serpents.

[Jolemai]

Perhaps he's relying on the Stormravens to get behind them?

Personally, I don't get why he's gone with a single Flamerback. Why not a Drop Pod for those five or even a Bolterback? I guess he's leaving it hidden and then flushing out enemy objectives in cover late in the game?

[Jolemai]

Just knocked this up over my lunch break. Would it work in a similar vein?

[Brother_Dan'l]

This is the sort of thing that's really reduced my enthusiasm for 6th. Every time I turn around and think I'll finally have the time to start 40K again more seems to pop up that makes my BA look sad. I'm feeling like I did when the first PDF appeared at the end of 4th(?). It all seems to boil down to "Sure BA can win. If all your dice have sixes on every face."

I better go play with my toy soldiers some so I don't feel quite so down on 40K. A couple of solid drubbings that I learn from usually make me feel better about the current state of the game.

[Morticon]

Wolf Pack - i hadnt thought about skies of blood at all to be honest.  I'd be super worried about it- but its mitigated somewhat by Corbs I guess.  

I think that would be the best way to play that list. 

[Hadron Ka'sel]

Theres one thing that could be FAQ'd in that would help us inordanately, giving us fleet like they've given the raven guard.

For me it feels like we've been a little gimped from the start of 6th, granted its got a lot worse. But with the changes to how assault works, and how certain brb special rules have been changed the whole reason for some of our units costing a premium has fully gone out of the window.  

To be honest i wouldn't be surprised to see more people using Codex marines as their main detachment, either white scars (think blood rodeo) or raven guard, and then allying in Blood angels just to top off the list with DC and a few other of our goodies to make a blood angels army.

I really do feel that more than any other codex that came out last edition that we have really got the short end of the stick.

 

Though whilst writing this i have have just hit upon a list idea i may just try. Does anyone know how effective pinning is now in 6th?

[gory_v]

Listen to his podcast and he'll explain his thoughts when developing the list. Kenny, being a veteran GT player, knew that Nova provided good terrain for blocking LOS and protecting his assault squads. I forget why he went with the heavy flamer but he was very happy with the return he got on it as it was doing the job he intended it to do. As far as anti-tank went he'd mostly use the ravens to blow everything up which is why he used the lascannons opposed to the AC so the +3 strength was more likely to pen and get the job done.

 

As I listen to more and more GT vets explain their thoughts when creating lists, the more decisions you give your opponent to make the more likely they are to make the wrong ones.

 

I think you're all so wrapped up with the idea of creating a true all comers list but as some of you have also mentioned, that sort of thing just doesn't exist. Every list will have counters and it comes down to your ingenuity when faced with a true counter. One thing I'll say for sure is he did not by any means deviate from what BA are known for doing and I applaud him for that.

 

When I first came back I fell victim to all the criticism I was receiving for my theory lists and started believing that the only way to be viable was to bring in cheap allies to balance out the points cost of BA units. While this list by any means isn't the safest, it's probably really fun to play when it works out. It's a game that will always rely on dice, no matter how much we try to avoid it by playing it "safe."

[Papa Lazarou]

Listen to his podcast and he'll explain his thoughts when developing the list. Kenny, being a veteran GT player, knew that Nova provided good terrain for blocking LOS and protecting his assault squads. I forget why he went with the heavy flamer but he was very happy with the return he got on it as it was doing the job he intended it to do. As far as anti-tank went he'd mostly use the ravens to blow everything up which is why he used the lascannons opposed to the AC so the +3 strength was more likely to pen and get the job done.

 

As I listen to more and more GT vets explain their thoughts when creating lists, the more decisions you give your opponent to make the more likely they are to make the wrong ones.

 

I think you're all so wrapped up with the idea of creating a true all comers list but as some of you have also mentioned, that sort of thing just doesn't exist. Every list will have counters and it comes down to your ingenuity when faced with a true counter. One thing I'll say for sure is he did not by any means deviate from what BA are known for doing and I applaud him for that.

 

When I first came back I fell victim to all the criticism I was receiving for my theory lists and started believing that the only way to be viable was to bring in cheap allies to balance out the points cost of BA units. While this list by any means isn't the safest, it's probably really fun to play when it works out. It's a game that will always rely on dice, no matter how much we try to avoid it by playing it "safe."

 

You hit it on the head for me right there with that last paragraph. How many people used the fragioso before the 6th came out? Now you usually see them in most lists even though nothing has changed with them statwise. Maybe it was the internet deemed them bad.

[Morticon]

 

When I first came back I fell victim to all the criticism I was receiving for my theory lists and started believing that the only way to be viable was to bring in cheap allies to balance out the points cost of BA units

 

Two things there though.

 

1.  Taking things as gospel without validation or justification for suggestions is a generally a bad idea.  Unless someone can back up why they suggest something, or suggest not taking something, it may not be ideal.

2. Meta consideration is the biggest thing.  In the case of this dude, he knew there would be loads of terrain. Thats a monstrous meta consideration that will not work for others. 

 

 

Also,where did you receive that crit? I think saying that the "only" way to make them viable is a bit misguided.  Its definitely one of the better ways thats for sure.  Don't think its the only way though. 

[gory_v]

My mistake, shouldn't have used 'only.'

 

While I have received a lot of great feedback, I've also gotten really neg feedback where someone will take everything they don't like in my lists due to "this and this counter" in their meta which results in the 'suggestion' of something almost completely different except for my troops choices, haha. Guess I got frustrated with it occasionally happening and felt a bit of validation when I saw the list he ended up taking to Nova.

 

Received the crit here earlier this year right when I posted my first 'real' list when the server just got replaced (so sadly it's gone) and on 'dakka' which I probably won't use anymore. Tend to get better, more constructive results at heresy and more recently here.

[knife&fork]

My mistake, shouldn't have used 'only.'

 

While I have received a lot of great feedback, I've also gotten really neg feedback where someone will take everything they don't like in my lists due to "this and this counter" in their meta which results in the 'suggestion' of something almost completely different except for my troops choices, haha. Guess I got frustrated with it occasionally happening and felt a bit of validation when I saw the list he ended up taking to Nova.

 

 

If you think you have stumbled on to something good, then by all means ignore everyone who tells you it won't work and try it out for yourself. :) We have to experiment and sometimes learn the hard way ourselves. 

 

Regarding feedback, you'll get better advice if you are clear about what you want to bring, how your meta looks and how you plan to play. Someone pointing out "this and this counter" isn't trying to ruin your fun, they are trying to help you build a better list and avoid the worst burns. It might feel like they are 'attacking' you, but they really aren't.

 

I think the discussion so far ties in well with the start of the thread. The NOVA list is full of flaws, but it won thanks thanks to knowledge of the meta, skill and a bit of luck. We can still win with BA, but making a solid list with few weaknesses is tough right now.