Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Gree]

On the subject of Gulliman getting owned by 10 Legionnaires I hope people aren't forgetting what happened when Fulgrim took  a pasting off his elite.

 

I don't think any of us are, but that's more acceptable at least because Fulgrim demonstrated fine durability, tanking a power fist to the face along with repeated sonic blasts to the head. That and the entire thing was basically a test orchestrated by Fulgrim to mess with his Captains. I don't recall him using any of his Titan-busting psychic powers in that fight.

[Stonerhino]

See and enjoyed the interaction between the Wolves and Guiliman.  It was almost like Guilliman let down his formal persona and interacted on their level.  It really made Guilliman's leadership abilities shine. 

 

Sometimes people just need to be told things in a certain way.  And the "I'll gut you" part was amazing.  It seemed so out of place that it made total sence.  Like the banter between the Wolf Lords and their inner circle.  Almost like Guilliman was acting like a surrogate lord for them.  Even the "You realise you are making look stupid" was golden.

[Conn Eremon]

I think it is plain to see that everyone has different opinions on how this book portrayed the power scale of Primarchs in general, and Guilliman in particular, and that these opinions are pretty much set in stone by now and clearly not getting budged one way or another.

 

So can we please just drop it? This has been a circular argument for quite a few pages already. Let's not keep it going.

[Kol Saresk]

@Cormac, I know it isn't true invisibility, that's why I sort of likened it to the Shadow. The Shadow was able to hide himself, but not completely. There was always a shadow there. That was the impression I got way back in Dark King and I got a similar impression here where there were so many close calls and how at even one point, CurE was staring Prayto I think face to face while being attcked and everything missing.

[Emperor's Furor]

On a semi-related note, has anyone else had difficulty downloading the ebook version? I purchased it last night but every time I click to download it nothing happens. I've tried it on three separate networks now.

Try opening the link in a new window, took me several times for it to work for me.

[Beta galactosidase]

I did a site search for Sirhan Sirhan and didn't find anything.   : (

 

cheat code: One of the characters remembers assassinating Robert Kennedy, and kind of implies this has something to do with the Cabal opposing the Emperor.  

 

Didn't read most of this thread due to topic: Power Levels.

[lilMAC25]

It appears that A D-B is attempting to make up for Abnett in several instances. Abnett put up the Space Wolves as the "Emperor's Executioners", then A D-B slightly qualifies that by stating that it was not necessarily an official mandate. Abnett claims the Space Wolves were chosen by the Emperor because they are the most ruthless and brutal of the Legions, then A D-B retroactively explains that by having members of the Night Lords and World Eaters Legions explain why "we cannot be trusted". Abnett has Guilliman beaten up by a Space Marine, then A D-B has him stand up to Lorgar and Angron. (And now Abnett is putting Guilliman down a few pegs again).

 

He has done that before as well. Spurrier claims that the Emperor had ordered the Night Lords to commit those atrocities and then conspired against them during the Great Crusade, then A D-B explains that Curze was paranoid and Sahal had simply bought into that. Thorpe alleges that Jonson may have waited to see who would win during the Battle for Terra, then A D-B shows how Jonson was utterly devoted to the Emperor.

 

I swear, A D-B is like the shining saviour of the 40K lore right now. (Well, ok, he had the Space Wolves fight the Inquisition after Armageddon, when the lore had said that they hadn't...)

 

 

And for all of you who wish for Abnett to write about this Legion or that: Be careful what you wish for. So far in three out of three cases he has significantly changed the lore of the Legion he was writing for. I loved the Ghosts series (and had even suggested it to some non-40K playing friends), but somehow everytime Abnett writes about Space Marines it turns horribly wrong.

 

Don't care.

 

His writing style and abilities are only equaled by ADB (exceeded in some instances, yes). 

 

 

 

Abnett is simply one of the 2 best authors BL has.

 

 

This was a fantastic novel (not my favorite HH story, but still fantastic)

 

 

[lilMAC25]

Great book. I feel I could write some seriously long posts on this book.

 

Shotgun of thoughts after finishing it, but this didnt really FINISH anything, great story, but closure...not coming. Its another jump off point, just like I felt Know No Fear was.

 

 

 

1. I am too harsh on the Wolves, and Abnett regarding them. There are a lot of positives that they portray and concepts that they push that are suitably badass, but the executioner bit just grinds me to the bone. Good scenes with them all told, and I just need to move on I suppose. As long as no Wolf fanboy gets all up in arms I think I can just accept it for what it is.

 

2. Not much of a showing for the shattered forces, I wonder when we next will see the Iron Warriors and the Loyalists from AE.

 

3. I want a whole story, nay, a whole line of stories on Perpetuals. This is where I think Abnett's strengths (and bias) really comes through.

 

It was touched on earlier, but he doesnt seem to want the Primachs to be transhuman demigods ++++. Thinking back to Legion we had a geneforged human almost beat an Astartes no? It seems thats where Abnett comes in. Primarch ~= 10-15 Marines ~= 2-5 Geneforged ~= 2-3 Humans? I dont know, I go back to that Angron comparison to the staying power of a Primarch, and frankly there is a disconnect there between ADB and DA.

 

I mean I get the whole plot armour thing for Curze, but ONLY because Abnett made Rob look so..mortal. Same with Vulkan. He died to some pretty 'normal' wounds. Meanwhile, Curze does a lot of pretty paranormal things, and walks away.

 

4. The story is woven so well. I really didnt want to put it down, finished it in 2 sittings really and I am not that fast a reader.

 

5. The UM didnt look bad at all in the book. Yet the other Legion's characters got to shine at something. This was well done imo.

 

6. Curze, ah my good friend Curze. He's nuts. He's 'evil'. He's truly fallen at this point, and I was wrong, hes not trying to subvert fate. He is trying to drag those around him, down to where he knows on some level he has fallen and then subvert fate by them killing him.

 

Will be tough to recover the character from a present state I think. He's well past what we saw in Savage Weapons, well well past, and likely far beyond the lucid moments in Prince of Crows really.

 

 

 

 

All in all, 8/10 for me. A few power level type concerns are all I really have, as there is just a bit of a disconnect that isnt flowing from what we see in one novel to another.

 

EDIT: This cements my opinion that only ADB can do the Emperor vs Horus though.

 

Dan can set the table like nobodies business, but I can only put my faith in ADB for the showdown.

Good post.

 

Agree with all of it.

[lilMAC25]

 

 

I don't want to turn this into a whole thing, but actually Betrayer does two things. It confirms the executioner status. And then it raises the question of whether it was Emperor-ordained, or self-ordained. It neither proves nor disproves one of those two points. The Night of the Wolf served no purpose other than to direct the executioner aspect from possibly having something to do with the Lost Legions to something a bit more practical, such as apparently being the Emperor's voice in telling Angron to stop implanting the Nails, which we know is an old-fluff fact. Although how the sanction was carried out wasn't known until Betrayer. It shifts the focus of the executioner aspect, it does not negate it.

 

 

Uh...

 

As several others have pointed out, Betrayer plainly lends credence to the possibility it might be true - and that the Wolves act as if it is - while also casting doubt on why or how it's true. It in no way confirms it. That's the point. I did a lot to make it look legit, absolutely - lending serious credence to the possibility, while taking a step back from all the 'proof'. It was already far, far, far too "confirmed" in too many books talking about "unleashing the Wolves" and in Prospero Burns itself making it seem like solid fact. It had to reined back, and needed context to end the "They killed the Lost Legions stuff" as well. So we see it happen, and it turns out there's actually doubt about it, after all.

 

Don't mistake lending credence to something while simultaneously introducing doubt, as "confirming" it.

 

 

It appears that A D-B is attempting to make up for Abnett in several instances. Abnett put up the Space Wolves as the "Emperor's Executioners", then A D-B slightly qualifies that by stating that it was not necessarily an official mandate. Abnett claims the Space Wolves were chosen by the Emperor because they are the most ruthless and brutal of the Legions, then A D-B retroactively explains that by having members of the Night Lords and World Eaters Legions explain why "we cannot be trusted". Abnett has Guilliman beaten up by a Space Marine, then A D-B has him stand up to Lorgar and Angron. (And now Abnett is putting Guilliman down a few pegs again).

 

"Make up for" is a strong term. I... um... I'm a big believer in context, and a galaxy that size having a lot of doubt, secrecy, and misunderstandings between its institutions. Something like the Emperor's Executioners started with them, in Prospero Burns, being lauded as "better" and "outfighting" other Space Marines, and heavily hinted that they took down the Lost Legions. Don't get me wrong, that's solid gold in terms of making a fanbase happy, but it had to be countered and put into context, because there's no way that it could be true in-universe (plus, we all know it's not from established lore, and I know from the fact it came up in the HH meetings), and it was starting to skew the setting wildly.

 

Context, context, context. I love it lots.

 

Anyway, back to UR discussion. I've been waiting for this one to come out for ages, I had a feeling it would go down well. One of Dan's main drives was that he wanted Curze to win something, as I always show him losing. He's been quoted as saying a few times that he wanted to do a "superhero" theme in terms of primarchs fighting, and while I think that's a little misrepresentative of the end result, it's cool to see in action. The kind of thing I'd never write, but found an awesome read. The thing I like most about it is how it shows the difference between writing styles with different Heresy authors. Curze's rampage here is way beyond anything my Curze could ever do (if people are holding Angron and Lorgar as the height of primarch power, I'd ask them to look at Curze in UR, or A Thousand Sons, where it's inferred Magnus could delete the entire Space Wolf fleet if he chose to actually bother), but it never felt disingenuous to me, or conflicting. Just different.

 

Really enjoyed UR, obviously. Though my fave Ultramarine moment is yet to come.

 

 

Post more often please.

 

 

Love having your perspective on things.

 

 

Sadly, so much of it lately has been you hashing and rehashing the Wolves as executioners (because fans wont leave it alone).

 

 

[Wade Garrett]

So can we please just drop it? This has been a circular argument for quite a few pages already. Let's not keep it going.

BUT! Other people...WRONG! on the Internet!

 

Fine. Does UE have any more quotes from Rob's "Notes Towards Martial Codification"?

[Scribe]

Just that mention on it being difficult to wield the shattered legions as a cohesive force.

[Kol Saresk]

But then Mama Smurf comes along and does just that. :whistling:

[Wade Garrett]

But then Mama Smurf comes along and does just that. :whistling:

Makes sense. You mess with the cub, Momma Grizzly will put you in line or in the ground.

[lilMAC25]

Angel Exterminatus mentions Iron Hands scoring direct hits on Perturabo with a variety of high powered weapons, to little effect. As for Fulgrim's "Oh, it's getting dark. Hold me..." in the same book, I'm labeling that as him being a drama queen. Especially since Perturabo says that both he and Fulgrim have healed from worse wounds in their time.

 

As for Primarch armor being no protection against bolt rounds...really guys? Ordinary Astartes plate enables the wearer to tank bolt rounds unless they hit an eye lens (Know No Fear, Blood Reaver).

 

And the idea that Primarchs rely on dodging attacks...yeah. That's exactly the impression every description we have of a Primarch in battle suggests. Angron, Ferrous, Mortarion...all of them backflipping through the air, their vulnerable bodies gracefully slipping in between bullets and blades.

 

 

pretty sure RGs armor was nonfunctional ceremonial armour.

 

he mentioned it wasnt real battle plate 87 times in the description of the fight.

[Scribe]

But then Mama Smurf comes along and does just that.

Lol actually in a way thats a nod to the SM Codex. 'The Ultras are your lords, just follow orders.' Spiritual Liege indeed.

[Gree]

 

Angel Exterminatus mentions Iron Hands scoring direct hits on Perturabo with a variety of high powered weapons, to little effect. As for Fulgrim's "Oh, it's getting dark. Hold me..." in the same book, I'm labeling that as him being a drama queen. Especially since Perturabo says that both he and Fulgrim have healed from worse wounds in their time.

 

As for Primarch armor being no protection against bolt rounds...really guys? Ordinary Astartes plate enables the wearer to tank bolt rounds unless they hit an eye lens (Know No Fear, Blood Reaver).

 

And the idea that Primarchs rely on dodging attacks...yeah. That's exactly the impression every description we have of a Primarch in battle suggests. Angron, Ferrous, Mortarion...all of them backflipping through the air, their vulnerable bodies gracefully slipping in between bullets and blades.

 

 

pretty sure RGs armor was nonfunctional ceremonial armour.

 

he mentioned it wasnt real battle plate 87 times in the description of the fight.

 

I don't recall him making any such mention in the fight. There is one mention of Guilliman wearing a ceremonial version of his wargear earlier when he meets with the Legions, but that's more to indicate that he's unarmed. There is no mention of it being nonfunctional.

[Vazzy]

Really guys? Let's just drop it huh? And move onto other discussions, like how enjoyable it was reading Euten teasing Guilliman about being jealous of the Lion. 

[Scribe]

Actually, I think that was a great addition. Especially since Curze REALLY took exception to it. Add mommy issues to the list of things most primarchs probably have, to go with Daddy/Emperor issues.

[Brother Captain Achilles]

But then Mama Smurf comes along and does just that.

Lol actually in a way thats a nod to the SM Codex. 'The Ultras are your lords, just follow orders.' Spiritual Liege indeed.

If I remember correctly it has nothing to do with the "Ultras" in the sense that the individual Ultramarine sees himself as a haughty lord set above his peers. It had everything to do with the fact that Two Primarchs were in a battle for their lives and that as Loyal servants of the Imperium it was their duty to work together in the most effective manner possible to aid them in battle.

Chamberlain Principal "Momma Smurf" Euten is officially on my "Badasses of the Heresy" list.

Vazzy and I confirmed for official members of the Euten Fan club.

[lilMAC25]

 

 

Angel Exterminatus mentions Iron Hands scoring direct hits on Perturabo with a variety of high powered weapons, to little effect. As for Fulgrim's "Oh, it's getting dark. Hold me..." in the same book, I'm labeling that as him being a drama queen. Especially since Perturabo says that both he and Fulgrim have healed from worse wounds in their time.

 

As for Primarch armor being no protection against bolt rounds...really guys? Ordinary Astartes plate enables the wearer to tank bolt rounds unless they hit an eye lens (Know No Fear, Blood Reaver).

 

And the idea that Primarchs rely on dodging attacks...yeah. That's exactly the impression every description we have of a Primarch in battle suggests. Angron, Ferrous, Mortarion...all of them backflipping through the air, their vulnerable bodies gracefully slipping in between bullets and blades.

 

 

pretty sure RGs armor was nonfunctional ceremonial armour.

 

he mentioned it wasnt real battle plate 87 times in the description of the fight.

 

I don't recall him making any such mention in the fight. There is one mention of Guilliman wearing a ceremonial version of his wargear earlier when he meets with the Legions, but that's more to indicate that he's unarmed. There is no mention of it being nonfunctional.

 

 

Sorry, you're correct.

 

I should have said "less functional."

 

 

When I think of a ceremonial sword... I think of a dull sword.

When I think of a ceremonial firearm (like that carried by the Marine Silent Drill Squad).... I think of a non functional firearm (It'll fire blanks, but it will not fire real rounds).

When I think of ceremonial armor... I think of lighter, less protective more Shinie armor.

[Scribe]

But then Mama Smurf comes along and does just that.

Lol actually in a way thats a nod to the SM Codex. 'The Ultras are your lords, just follow orders.' Spiritual Liege indeed.

If I remember correctly it has nothing to do with the "Ultras" in the sense that the individual Ultramarine sees himself as a haughty lord set above his peers. It had everything to do with the fact that Two Primarchs were in a battle for their lives and that as Loyal servants of the Imperium it was their duty to work together in the most effective manner possible to aid them in battle.

Chamberlain Principal "Momma Smurf" Euten is officially on my "Badasses of the Heresy" list.

Vazzy and I confirmed for official members of the Euten Fan club.

No, it has everything to do with chain of command, and I get that. However that was her solution. 'Listen to the UM and DA Captains.' Yes there is a reason here, especially in the Chaos, but then again, it was the White Scar that made the connection, and the Space Wolves being outside the chain of command that had all the impact on the story...interesting. :]

[Brother Captain Achilles]

 

No, it has everything to do with chain of command, and I get that. However that was her solution. 'Listen to the UM and DA Captains.' Yes there is a reason here, especially in the Chaos, but then again, it was the White Scar that made the connection, and the Space Wolves being outside the chain of command that had all the impact on the story...interesting.

 

And lo, you are one step closer to walking out of the darkness and re-embracing the light and glory of the Imperial Truth. That Honor, Brotherhood, and Loyalty are things of power that set the Loyal legions above their traitorous kin. You see, in the codex astartes as laid down by the hands of my Honoured Lord Rouboute Guilliman...

[Scribe]

Never. My Word Bearers are in the mail. :p

[depthcharge12]

But then Mama Smurf comes along and does just that.

Makes sense. You mess with the cub, Momma Grizzly will put you in line or in the ground.

Sooooo...

Roboute in 40k isn't actually wounded by Fulgrim, he was just put in the time out chair?

[Conn Eremon]

Mama Smurff fanclub? I am so lobbying to be the president of that club.

 

And yeah, Curze's severe distaste over the abomination that is being a mom was pretty surprising. Makes me wonder if he had a mother figure back on Nostromo that gone done him wrong or something.

 

I also find it interesting that I don't remember a single point where Guilliman was her son. Only ever her lord. She was his mam, his mamzel, but he also referred to her as Euten at times. Clearly she is his foster mother and their relationship is strong still, but they are both clearly pragmatic, logical beings. She is not his actual mother, but they have both seemingly come to terms with that without letting the knowledge of it have a negative impact on their relationship, even though it is changed tremendously by it.

 

An adopted child will have two main responses to his adoption. You're not my real mom, you lied to me. Or I don't care, you are my mom. Guilliman and Euten seem to walk the middle ground. You are not my mother, I am your liege lord, mixed with I don't care, I love you and need your counsel.

 

Man, I am so fanboying over this old lady. Freaking Euten, man. I'd already liked her, but when she flayed the First Master with her biting tongue, man alive.

 

 

Basically: I told Guilliman not to choose you as First Master. Thanks for proving me right.