Unremembered Empire....initial review

[Wade Garrett]

Wade: Those Librarians had clearly the upper hand. Lorgar thought they are one of gods. They just made mistake when they tried to drown archpriest of chaos in warp. He couldn´t beat Comminion until he realised it is gestalt of souls and started to pick them one by one. Moreover, it is shown, how devastatingly Communion affects Librarians (Esca is almost killed by ordinary human after ending Communion before). Add possible negative influence of raging Ruinstorm and you got very different view.

 

Yes. "clearly" they had the upper hand. The same way the Lion was clearly using his neck muscles to tire out Curze's fingers in Savage Weapons, Lorgar cleverly used his internal organs to trap Corax's lightning claws in The First Heretic, Magnus broke Russ's knee with his spinal cord in A Thousand Sons, and Guilliman was just letting Angron tire himself out by alowing the Red Angel repeatedly shove chainswords into his torso.

[Vazzy]

 

Wade: Those Librarians had clearly the upper hand. Lorgar thought they are one of gods. They just made mistake when they tried to drown archpriest of chaos in warp. He couldn´t beat Comminion until he realised it is gestalt of souls and started to pick them one by one. Moreover, it is shown, how devastatingly Communion affects Librarians (Esca is almost killed by ordinary human after ending Communion before). Add possible negative influence of raging Ruinstorm and you got very different view.

 

Yes. "clearly" they had the upper hand. The same way the Lion was clearly using his neck muscles to tire out Curze's fingers in Savage Weapons, Lorgar cleverly used his internal organs to trap Corax's lightning claws in The First Heretic, Magnus broke Russ's knee with his spinal cord in A Thousand Sons, and Guilliman was just letting Angron tire himself out by alowing the Red Angel repeatedly shove chainswords into his torso.

Wait...that's not what happened? Maybe I should reread those books...

[Conn Eremon]

But damn it, I do not see how Guilliman is seen as weak here. A tired man holds a lost son tight to his breast, and people are honestly complaining that the hidden dagger didn't just shatter instead of penetrating? Bull .

The problem being that this exhausted fellow is basically Superman, and ever other Kryptonian we've seen stabbed with knifes, swords, or lochaber axes has responded with mild annoyance at the worst, yet somehow because Superman was taken off guard he's suddenly all "OH NOES THE KNIFE IN MY HEART I AM DOOMED!" when, based on the other examples involving Kryptonians and stabby things, the response should have been "Oh, it is ON now! Time to punch some heads so hard they explode!"

Which he did. That is what happened. The knife penetrated his heart, the lost son got decapitated by backhand, Guilliman's heart skipped a beat and kept on chugging like a train with Terry Crews driving. And in the same book, you see what Curze is like. That's not Dan introducing a disconnect between the two Primarchs' powerlevels, that's him showing the differences between "utterly disadvantaged" and "every advantage."

[Emperor's Furor]

I would agree that Guilliman's prowess was seriously understated in this book, when you think of what ever other Primarch has shown, then a Primarch naked against 10 marines even with the element of surprise shouldn't hinder a Primarch to the level that he was incapacitated and had to recuperate after it. Although the idea that Guilliman really is just a desk jockey is quite amusing and perhaps something to be explored, but then you have him holding off Lorgar and Angron..I dunno just put it down to the writers interpretation like Aaron says and be done with it..

[Gree]

How are people even white knighting this? I simply dont see how you can compare the two, and its not Curze thats got the problem here, Curze is on the level. The Russ, Angron, Lorgar, Rob (Betrayer), Vulkan level.

 

Right, add the Lion to 'the level'.

 

Rob just isnt there.

 

I presume people are defending it because Dan Abnett wrote it, and Abnett is a well-liked fan favourite. If Ben Counter, Nick Kyme or even CS Goto wrote it, then you would probably see more people criticising it.

[Scribe]

Sure Gree, but this isnt about Dan's writing. I love the book. It was non-stop pacing throughout, not a dry section, some heart strings where even (manly) tugged.

 

This is just about Rob's portrayal, and the serious fact from this keyboard warrior's chair, that he looks soft and cuddly compared to EVERY one of his brothers.

[Gree]

Sure Gree, but this isnt about Dan's writing. I love the book. It was non-stop pacing throughout, not a dry section, some heart strings where even (manly) tugged.

 

This is just about Rob's portrayal, and the serious fact from this keyboard warrior's chair, that he looks soft and cuddly compared to EVERY one of his brothers.

 

I was talking about the portrayal too. I quite liked the book overall at least. Perhaps I should have phrased my point better.

[RapatoR]

They pulled Lorgar from his body. During raging warpstorm 20 or so psykers formed a entinty that was so strong, Lorgar thought one of gods came to him. During the same warpstorm they (did I mentioned it was a Khorne warpstorm, and the are the psykers?) pulled archpriest of chaos from his body and almost drowned him in his own creation. Then they fought for some time (it could be seconds it could be hours). Sooner in the book, is shown how much it cost them to even form that entity. To fight a strong psyker primarch in a warpstorm (the very same primarch started) must cost the a huge amount of effort. Then the warp turns against both of them, Lorgar is prepared, Communion not and gets weakened. Even then we got sentences like: "War Hound struck faster than Lorgar could follow.", Lorgar dropping Illuminarum, Lorgar struggling to breathe. Only after the Lorgar realizes what Communion is tide turns.

 

If you saw two men fighting and you saw man A dropping his weapon and geting strangled by opponent, would you say: Holy cow look how man A is roflstomping man B!

[Wade Garrett]

Wade Garrett rewrites that one bit in "Unremembered Empire" while leaving everything else unchanged:

Roboute Guilliman was very tired and sad. His son was dying, and he'd been doing logistics all night beforehand. Which is why he was both tired and sad. He had also removed his power armor for some reason, possibly to scratch an itch on his incredibly well defined lats. But that's not important right now.

"Oh my son, I am so sad that you are dying!" Guilliman said as he embraced the Ultramarine to his chest. But he said it a very stoic, Roman like fashion, not like he was about to cry and get all hysterical or anything, there was just enough emotion to show that a broken heart was beating in the chest of this man of stone. There might have been a single tear drop running down his face. Or it could have been a trick of the light. But either way it was okay, because Roboute is so manly he isn't afraid to cry when the moment demands it.

"EXECUTION TIME!" said the Space Wolves, as they suddenly sprang their clever ambush. Well, they looked like Space Wolves. But they could have been members of the Alpha Legion I guess. I haven't read the book so I'm just speculating here. High explosive rounds detonated against Roboute's ridiculous musculature, seriously, the guy looked like a Bowflex commercial or something. But even with all the crunches he'd been doing, the bolts still blew chunks of meat off his torso, because bolters, man. They're basically grenade launcher machine guns.

Suddenly, Captain Fenris Wolftooth noticed that even though he was having pieces of himself shot off, Guilliman wasn't falling down dead.

"Don't worry dudes, I got this!" Fenris Wolftooth said, and he stabbed Guilliman with his power sword. Ouch. But Guilliman still didn't fall down. Instead, he looked into Fenris's eyes.

"I'm taking a moment out of being stoic and manly to mourn my beloved son, and THIS is when you decide to pull this crap?" Guilliman said, his manly beard stubble quivering with half suppressed fury. (He'd been doing logistics all night, so he hadn't had time to shave yet.)

"Umm, guys? You shouldn't stop shooting him just because I stabbed him in the chest and he's talking to me." Fenris Wolftooth answered.

"Boy, I am about to punch you so hard particles that haven't even been DISCOVERED YET come out of your corpse!" Guilliman told him. Then he did.

"Huh, that was kind of awesome." Roboute said, as weird particles flew out of the space where Fenris Wolftooth had been standing. "I think I'll do the same thing to the rest of you, just to see if the tenth time is still as awesome as the first."

"Be the Emperor's Executioners, Malcador said." sighed Lupus Uhbel. "Watch over all the other Primarchs! It'll be an honor, Malcador said!"

"It annoys me that the last thing I'm going to hear before Roboute Guilliman punches me into tachyrons is you whining." Carcharoth Howling Mad told him. Then both of them were dead, due to Rob punching them really, really hard.

[Gree]

I regret that I have but one Like to give to that post. That was hilarious.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I'm having a hard time putting this one down (same problem I have with almost all Dan Abnett books)...BUT there is one little thing that's bugging me tremendously

 

An armoured Guilliman struggles to beat 10 Astartes and only survives because the Astartes with a blade at his throat pauses to speak like a gloating James Bond villain...I mean really? The exact same thing happens with Kor Phaeron and I thought that was bad enough, this is even worst. It's just 10 Astartes with bolters. This seems to be completely inconsistent with how Corax rapestomps his way through hordes of traitors in Ravensflight.

What are you assuming as far as skill level for the ambushers? I doubt these are newly formed space marines. These may be veteran Alpha Legionnaires  who got the ultimate "drop" on a primarch, in a confined room with no escape. 

[Scribe]

I hate that Wade soaks up Likes.

 

Yeah, thats right *mean face*.

 

----

 

I think this is a philosophical disagreement that there will be no resolution to. Some people think 10 marines could harm a Primarch, nay, hospitalize a Primarch.

 

Other's think thats a bunch of sillyness since a Primarch can eat a TITAN grade Plasma Blast.

[Tyrannicide]

May I ask why Amazon is not offering UE in it's current production of hardback? I see the pre-order for the paperback version slated for a Feb. release. 

 

Is this something new? They usually sell the books in conjunction with BL's release dates, IIRC. 

[Conn Eremon]

Other's think thats a bunch of sillyness since a Primarch can eat a TITAN grade Plasma Blast.

Lorgar did no such thing. It crippled him FAR worse than Guilliman's would-be attackers did him. That's not to mention the fact that Lorgar is no mere Primarch anymore.

[Entei]

 

I'm having a hard time putting this one down (same problem I have with almost all Dan Abnett books)...BUT there is one little thing that's bugging me tremendously

 

An armoured Guilliman struggles to beat 10 Astartes and only survives because the Astartes with a blade at his throat pauses to speak like a gloating James Bond villain...I mean really? The exact same thing happens with Kor Phaeron and I thought that was bad enough, this is even worst. It's just 10 Astartes with bolters. This seems to be completely inconsistent with how Corax rapestomps his way through hordes of traitors in Ravensflight.

What are you assuming as far as skill level for the ambushers? I doubt these are newly formed space marines. These may be veteran Alpha Legionnaires  who got the ultimate "drop" on a primarch, in a confined room with no escape. 

Exactly. I'm not trying to defend Abnett as much as I'm trying to advocate that there is in fact a possibilty that 10 elite Astartes could come close to killing a primarch in an ambush. Like I said before, I doubt Alpharius would send 10 regular-joe marines. Besides, it's pretty clearly described that Guilliman finds it hard to concentrate on the practical. 

[Daddywarcrimes]

Lorgar relied on extremely powerful sorcery to not get annihilated and still would up nearly dead.  It's not like he took it on the chin, spit out a mouthful of blood, and went on fighting.

[Wade Garrett]

All joking aside, Lorgar had a space magic force shield protecting him at the time and those Titan blasts essentially reduced him to bacon.

 

But still, being threatened by ten Marines with bolters, even in an ambush situation, is pretty much the lowest end we've seen for a Primarch so far. Ordinary Astartes have beaten those odds (insofar as Lucius, Sevatar, etc are "ordinary" Astartes).

[Larkyn]

Wade Garrett rewrites that one bit in "Unremembered Empire" while leaving everything else unchanged:

 

 

 

Truly epic. That is on par with ADB's little satire where Abaddon forces the Traitors to leave all the good toys at Terra after Horus croaks.

 

I too wish I had more than one Like to give.

[Kol Saresk]

no longer needed.

[Conn Eremon]

Heh. Ninja'd you an hour ago Kol. Sent it as a message because I wasn't sure about how the mods would take a whole Chapter and then some from a novel being copy/pasted.

[Kol Saresk]

Heh. I was buy an hour ago. Worse comes to worse, it just gets removed.

[Haranin]

 

Wade Garrett rewrites that one bit in "Unremembered Empire" while leaving everything else unchanged:

 

 

 

Truly epic. That is on par with ADB's little satire where Abaddon forces the Traitors to leave all the good toys at Terra after Horus croaks.

 

I too wish I had more than one Like to give.

Anyone have the link to that, it sounds great

[Wade Garrett]

Well, thanks, guys.

 

Now that an actual Heresy author has taken that whole "Alpha Legion has people everywhere" thing and run with it, I can no longer escape it by pretending really, REALLY hard that Deliverance Lost was never published and their appearance in Legion was the only Heresy book with the Alphas in it.

 

Dear Ultramarines:

I officially forgive you for Codex Space Marines 2nd Edition and apologize for all the whining I did about it. In hindsight, I was unaware how good I had it.

[depthcharge12]

I did not read a book so far, but from I have read from forum so far, it seems that Guiliman was not wearing an armour. Considering fan bias and tendency to put things out of cotext, I am betting that this will be a perfectly plausible scene. Surely they would not send ordinary Marines against Roboute, and they might have some kind of special issue ammunition (Seeker squad style - heck they were heavily used by AL).

 

Wade: Those Librarians had clearly the upper hand. Lorgar thought they are one of gods. They just made mistake when they tried to drown archpriest of chaos in warp. He couldn´t beat Comminion until he realised it is gestalt of souls and started to pick them one by one. Moreover, it is shown, how devastatingly Communion affects Librarians (Esca is almost killed by ordinary human after ending Communion before). Add possible negative influence of raging Ruinstorm and you got very different view.

 

EDIT: Heck, I would say that few other primarchs would survive abmush that happened to Roboute.

 

 

Lol maybe Angron? he would take the bullets then bring the house down on top of him...then get out and start killing the AL using one of the astartes as a weapon lol. But he could have died to bolters just like in Betrayer

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I did not read a book so far, but from I have read from forum so far, it seems that Guiliman was not wearing an armour. Considering fan bias and tendency to put things out of cotext, I am betting that this will be a perfectly plausible scene. Surely they would not send ordinary Marines against Roboute, and they might have some kind of special issue ammunition (Seeker squad style - heck they were heavily used by AL).

 

Wade: Those Librarians had clearly the upper hand. Lorgar thought they are one of gods. They just made mistake when they tried to drown archpriest of chaos in warp. He couldn´t beat Comminion until he realised it is gestalt of souls and started to pick them one by one. Moreover, it is shown, how devastatingly Communion affects Librarians (Esca is almost killed by ordinary human after ending Communion before). Add possible negative influence of raging Ruinstorm and you got very different view.

 

EDIT: Heck, I would say that few other primarchs would survive abmush that happened to Roboute.

 

Lol maybe Angron? he would take the bullets then bring the house down on top of him...then get out and start killing the AL using one of the astartes as a weapon lol. But he could have died to bolters just like in Betrayer

But throw a skull at him and say it belonged to one of his brothers or sisters and he'll be a mewling wreck.

 

Seriously though, I find it almost laughable that people are okay with Horus being put on his death bed by a sickly mortal who was so overweight he snapped his ankles by moving, but cannot accept that Guilliman was ambushed by ten Astartes who belong to a Legion that specializes in doing the unexpected and usually succeeding. And it's not like Guilliman was put on his death bed or was so injured he needed something like Enuncia to recuperate. He was back on his feet in a matter of hours after all.