IA: TBD - Sammy's Work In progress.

[Samantha Connor]

 

Hi. I'm Sammy and I've recently joined TB&C. You may have even seen my thread in the new members area.

Below you will find the preliminary form of my DIY chapter background. I am looking for constructive critique and assistance in fleshing out the concepts, though I feel that the core of the theme is solid. I hope you enjoy the concept and background as I continue to work and improve upon it. While I'm working on the background I'm also trying to think of a name. It's certainly barebones and I appreciate people taking the time to even scan-read it.

 

Regarding female marines:

I understand that the concept of female marines is a contentious one and probably overdone, but I'd like to feel that I've explained it in a way more acceptable than others. To really 'get into' the fluff of the Space Marines, I really needed to see the concept of 'Femarines' explored. I do want C&C of the female marines but only where it's due. They will be staying put- so if you do C&C, please critique my background of their creation and how they intermesh and fit in with the chapter and universe. Please don't write critically of them simply because of their inclusion. Thankyou!

 

 

 

Gene Seed Tampering and Ramifications:

Imperial Fists Gene Stock was altered in an attempt to diversify potential recruitment base. 53% of humanity is Female, outside of selective breeding and Gene-Therapy programs. Ability to screen female populace for Astartes potentials would greatly benefit humanity.

 

Biscopea Alteration:

Interaction with the Gene Seed alters function of the Biscopean node, adapting it’s hormonal balance to a greater variety of hosts. The downside therein is instability in the hormone-system in general. This instability interferes with other implants, resulting in a 25% increase in systemic rejection rates in male hosts. In most cases the changes to the Biscopea were considered moderately acceptable, as they allow over 45% of suitable female hosts to accept implantation and therapy at Stage Three.

 

Progenoid Side Effects:

Tampering with the Gene-Seed has produced unwanted side-effects in Progenoid growth. In almost 25% of all cases, progenoid glands of the chapter will cease to function properly and be unusable.

 

Black Carapace Side Effects:

The Black Carapace is arguably the most detrimental flaw in this chapter’s Gene-Stock. Due to the physiological changes brought on by the altered Biscopea, 60% of all initiates fail to bond properly with their black carapace. While their resilience is augmented, neural bundles often fail to integrate properly and are rejected, resulting in an incompatibility with full power-armour. Only one in three recruits may ever fully integrate with power armour, the vast majority of marines remaining as scouts.

 

Overall Effects:

The cumulative effect of the modifications sees the chapters with an increase in the pool of potential recruits by 60%. However, rejection of male recruits recruits is increased by 25%. This results in an overall recruitment pool size approximately 120% of that of a contemporary chapter.

 

The Progenoid mutations mean that the chapter averages only three Gene-Seed recovered from  every two fallen warriors, rather than four as is usual for a codex chapter, making their recruitment base far more important.

 

Lastly, the Black Carapace defects mean that the chapter is very short on fully-matured marines. Scouts make up the primary contingents of all forces the chapter fields.

 

The experiments are generally a resounding failure. While the changes did indeed allow access to a greater pool of recruits, tampering has disrupted the careful balance, resulting in far less fully matured Space Marines produced. Whomever sought to meddle in the work of the Emperor has likely (violently) learned of his mistake.

 

 

 

Compensating for the alterations:

The Chapter compensates for their shortcomings in various ways. Without access to full auto-senses and augmented strength, the Chapter sees all of it’s warriors performing training maneuvers in excess of that of other chapters, most of all in use of the chapter mainstay, the boltgun. They also often forgo more esoteric weaponry and focus highly on a smaller range of equipment to improve their skill with them beyond even that of the average Marine.

 

To compensate for the overall reduction in precision fire, almost every fully matured marine becomes a Devastator. The chapter lacks the codex interpretation of ‘Tactical Squad’ almost entirely, save for a few esteemed veterans who excel beyond all others. Chapter Devastators practice exclusively with heavy bolter and missile launcher in maneuvers based out of Razorback transports. It is absolutely critical to the chapter that they are able to maneuver and deploy accurate fire support at any time.

 

Librarians are an absolute treasure to the chapter, those with psychic ability are prized for they are already rare and rarer still that they pass into the chapter fully. Every librarian serves alongside their brethren, attached to a devastator squad and they are often elevated quickly into the eaves to the Chapter hierarchy, granted access to Tactical Dreadnought Armour as a way of protecting them and preserving their usefulness to the Chapter as a whole.

 

Schedule of the Chapter:

The Chapter, obsessed with intense training, shortens their prayer times significantly. Morning prayer and evening prayer are shortened while midday prayer is removed entirely, freeing up two hours for more intensive exercises during the day.

 

Free time allocated to the marines remains, however, as a means for recuperation and reflection on the day’s tasks and training, as well as personal prayer if desired.

 

 

 

Fleet and Outpost organisation:

With the chapter being unable to recover Gene-Seed as efficiently as other Chapters, the Chapter decentralises their forces and holdings entirely. While primarily fleet based, they see that their forces are split evenly except under the most apocalyptic of circumstances.

Outposts are never particularly large, with the chapter having no fortress monasteries. Almost every installation is a listening post and recruiting station. The chapter has them on tens of worlds, each producing and training scores of recruits. They exist on a wide array of worlds and the recruits almost always cross-train, ferried from extreme to extreme within reach of the chapter to prepare them utterly, training continuing for longer than that of other Chapters.

The fleet itself is most often organised into a ‘Star’ formation, the ships divided strategically between six sub fleets, each stationed to a different area of their home sectors. Each corresponds to the point of a five-pointed star, the Sixth the centre. The Sixth fleet is always home to the Chapter’s flagship, an ancient battle barge, holding the chapter’s oldest records and relics. Should great hardships ever come of the chapter, the Sixth fleet remains outside of the conflict to preserve the chapter should the other five points be lost.

 

 

 

The Chapter and mortality:

The Chapter, with it’s deficiencies tends to be significantly closer to ‘mortal’ humans than possible. While no ‘nicer’ or more humanitarian than any other, Astartes of the Chapter certainly associate more easily with civilians and members of the Imperial Guard. As a result, the Chapter commands less awe than other chapters might, but builds a stronger rapport with Guardsmen and Local Populations on their recruitment worlds and when working alongside them.

This works in favour of the chapter, mostly as it draws in a greater number of recruits as many believe the goal of becoming a warrior in the Chapter to be more attainable. The reality is that while many more are selected for recruitment, many more also fail.

There is a certain side-effect to such a relationship with humanity, however. As the Space Marines of the chapter are slightly less aloof, they are so for a reason. To the chapter, their fully matured battle brothers and their relics are of utmost important, as a result they are obsessed with the preservation of them and the chapter as a whole.

Indeed, this is why the ‘Star’ fleet formation exists as does the ‘Sixth Fleet Contingency’. While other chapters fearlessly throw themselves into the fray, expending their every life to defend humanity, a sliver of doubt remains in the mind of the Chapter. They explain themselves as being better able to defend humanity if they are not destroyed and so, their Sixth fleet will never enter combat. To some, this makes sense, to others it is cowardice. Sometimes it is even considered heresy.

 

The chapter maintains that the Sixth fleet is defensive, poised to return to defend Terra should the need arise, to protect the Emperor in glorious final combat. The truth of this, however, is up to debate.

 

 

Female Marines in the Chapter:

The inclusion of female marines in the Chapter is only evident when visiting a recruitment world, where suitable female recruits train alongside their brothers. It is likely considered heresy to some, that a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes have warriors drawn from female stock, but the chapter sees only strength.

All members of the chapter believe strongly in protective unity. As such, Battle Brother is used to refer to these marines as a would any other. ‘Warrior’ however, has also entered the common vocabulary of the chapter and is used more liberally than usual. A female marine may be referred to directly as ‘Sister’, but such is informal and likely never to be heard outside a ship or training outpost, used only in a social instance, perhaps during a daily meal or free time.

Females are practically indistinguishable from their brothers except when completely naked. Body structure and voice are often almost entirely the same as their brothers, as they developed the same way. A scant handful of female marines may have a slightly higher pitch to their voice or slightly fairer facial structure at most. Hair and Facial Hair are routinely shaven to the skin by all warriors, as a show of chapter solidarity which reduces the individuality of Marines even more.

Should a marine be wearing armour, it is entirely impossible to tell their gender.

 

 

[Silver fang]

^{Hi Sammy,}

 

^{First off, I quite like the idea of female marines. The only reason it hasn't happened officially is that the Imperium is run by a bunch of old sexist jerks.}

 

^{Thinking about the recruitment techniques of the Astartes, they are always physical in nature and designed to test the subject absolute limits in terms of strength, stamina, willpower & endurance. (This is where I sound like a sexist jerk) In general, a woman is not as physically powerful as a man, so for a girl to complete the trials, she must be something really special.}

 

^{From a purely biological point of view.  It seems to me that the Biscopea releases huge amounts of testosterone and HGH in order to attain the muscle structure of a space marine. A female flooded with these levels would end up looking similar to a modern day female body builder complete with square jawline, broad shoulders and other typically "male" traits. Why temper with something that isn't broken. Why not just put all the usual implants in a female body and see what happens?}

 

^{How does the chapter survive with an average 25% progenoid failure? In most case, a defective progenoid causes the chapter to become extinct very quickly.}

 

^{Wouldn't the chapters Apothecaries need to keep the male and female progenoids separate to avoid any cross contamination?}

 

^{I'm not sure if the Biscopea has any effect on the Black Carapace. All the descriptions I've ready say that the Carapace is a sub-dermal bodyglove that matures and hardens on its own.}

 

^{I hope I've been some help by asking these questions.}

 

^SF

[Olis]

It appears you may have avoided the more common pitfalls of Female Marines, and reducing the effectiveness of the gene-seed and/or the implants seems to add credibility to the piece. Of course, with the high rejection rate, there would be more serfs/servitors than usual, I would think, as well as scouts. Might I ask if you had particular founding in mind for the chapter? 

 

Also, of note, is that there is no name yet given for this chapter. Did you have any particular ideas for it?

 

I must say I'm not exactly keen on the idea that the sixth fleet entirely avoids combat. It smacks of cowardice in a mindset, regardless of the self preservation, that is geared almost exclusively towards war. And to have the flagship sit amongst this 'backup' fleet seems wrong. To me, a flagship leads a fleet. It cannot do so when constantly on 'defensive' duties. I would advocate adding a rotation system, if you wish to keep this 'Sixth Fleet Contingency' idea. That way all ships of the fleet see combat and there will always be a strategic reserve without the need to worry about whether or not the sub-fleet looks cowardly.

[Samantha Connor]

^{Hi Sammy,}

 

^{First off, I quite like the idea of female marines. The only reason it hasn't happened officially is that the Imperium is run by a bunch of old sexist jerks.}

 

^{Thinking about the recruitment techniques of the Astartes, they are always physical in nature and designed to test the subject absolute limits in terms of strength, stamina, willpower & endurance. (This is where I sound like a sexist jerk) In general, a woman is not as physically powerful as a man, so for a girl to complete the trials, she must be something really special.}

 

^{From a purely biological point of view.  It seems to me that the Biscopea releases huge amounts of testosterone and HGH in order to attain the muscle structure of a space marine. A female flooded with these levels would end up looking similar to a modern day female body builder complete with square jawline, broad shoulders and other typically "male" traits. Why temper with something that isn't broken. Why not just put all the usual implants in a female body and see what happens?}

 

^{How does the chapter survive with an average 25% progenoid failure? In most case, a defective progenoid causes the chapter to become extinct very quickly.}

 

^{Wouldn't the chapters Apothecaries need to keep the male and female progenoids separate to avoid any cross contamination?}

 

^{I'm not sure if the Biscopea has any effect on the Black Carapace. All the descriptions I've ready say that the Carapace is a sub-dermal bodyglove that matures and hardens on its own.}

 

^{I hope I've been some help by asking these questions.}

 

^SF

 

Hi, I've thought about quite a lot of the things you bring up, actually. 

 

In regards to the 'why don't you just put the regular implants in a woman', I'm actually trying to keep within the realms of much of the written fluff for the universe. It's actually appeared in white dwarf and on the GW website that "the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types."

I interpreted this as 'Marine Implant Organs require a very specific biological balance in order to work correctly.' In effect, female marines just doesn't work due to the way these things are designed.

 

It all requires some suspension of disbelief but one thing many people agree on is that the Cursed Founding really exists to show 'the emperor was right, look what happens if you tamper with his work', so I've chosen to branch the fluff slightly for my chapter and make a few assumptions of my own.

 

1] Creating a space marine is very complicated and all the parts work together for the result.

2] They don't normally work in females at all due to the incompatible biological 'environment'.

3] Tweaking the performance of a highly precise procedure has terrible unforeseen side effects.

 

I can't pretend I know much about genetics, but I can apply something I've taken from amateur programming. Changing a single value in a program can cause a bug to appear in unrelated code several thousand words later. Everything is interdependent.

 

As for the Progenoid issues, I saw fit to limit the growth of the chapter to balance out their increased ability to recruit people. I didn't want to leave them in any sort of advantageous position as doing so would mean that somehow, whoever meddled with the gene-seed improved on the Emperor's design which is a bigger faux pas than female marines would ever be.

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

 

It appears you may have avoided the more common pitfalls of Female Marines, and reducing the effectiveness of the gene-seed and/or the implants seems to add credibility to the piece. Of course, with the high rejection rate, there would be more serfs/servitors than usual, I would think, as well as scouts. Might I ask if you had particular founding in mind for the chapter? 

 

Also, of note, is that there is no name yet given for this chapter. Did you have any particular ideas for it?

 

I must say I'm not exactly keen on the idea that the sixth fleet entirely avoids combat. It smacks of cowardice in a mindset, regardless of the self preservation, that is geared almost exclusively towards war. And to have the flagship sit amongst this 'backup' fleet seems wrong. To me, a flagship leads a fleet. It cannot do so when constantly on 'defensive' duties. I would advocate adding a rotation system, if you wish to keep this 'Sixth Fleet Contingency' idea. That way all ships of the fleet see combat and there will always be a strategic reserve without the need to worry about whether or not the sub-fleet looks cowardly.

 

Hi Ollisredan! Thanks for the vote of confidence there. My female marines are not at all about showing femininity, or having boobs on the power armour, but simply about introducing females INTO the chapter. They are rather de-feminised by their conversion into a marine. Indeed, there will be lots of serfs and other underlings!

 

The founding of the chapter will be the 21st founding or the cursed founding, as it provides room and reason in the existing lore for genetic tampering to be going on.

 

There's no name yet because I'm sort of stirring that cauldron. I have lots of ideas floating about but none particularly jump to mind. The colour schema, to be added later, will be blue with white arms, weapons and shoulders, so something linking them to their colour could be nice.

 

 

To address the Sixth flee, it will be rotating and I actually forgot to put that in. Perhaps 'Flagship' as the wrong choice of words, too. Perhaps 'Monastery ship' or 'fortress vessel' would be a better choice of words. One ship (or starbase even), holding the most sacred relics of the chapter would be the linchpin of the Sixth fleet/reserve, while all other ships rotate out as required for repairs and suchlike.

 

Thanks for the input!

[Silver fang]

For what it's worth the Horus Heresy series has several examples of ordinary humans being fitted with only a few of the organs without progenoids. Simple things like muscle and bone growth, all without rejection to create a pseudo-marine. Although I think they were all male, it does go to show that some of the organs can operate independent of each other.

[Madwolf Shadowmane]

I like the concept so far.  The begin portions might be a bit too technical for an IA.  I would suggest as you expand this you work on presenting the altered gene-seed concept into more of a narrative instead of straight percentages.  An alternative could be a quote from an ancient apothecary.  You might need more on the Chapter cult and their character would help with naming suggestions.

[Samantha Connor]

I like the concept so far.  The begin portions might be a bit too technical for an IA.  I would suggest as you expand this you work on presenting the altered gene-seed concept into more of a narrative instead of straight percentages.  An alternative could be a quote from an ancient apothecary.  You might need more on the Chapter cult and their character would help with naming suggestions.

 

Totally. The current stuff really is the barebones background nitty-gritty. As it is, this is far from the finished 'meat' of the IA, lacking any real narrative.

I intend to take all of the above and move it around, then build a narrative on top of that when I get it to a position I'm happy with.

 

I don't really want to leap off the deep end before I have the chapter planned out. :)

[Dosjetka]

Don't have the time to do a full post with C&C, but I quickly read through the text and quite like the idea. The fact that the success rate is quite low makes it even more credible, as does the de-feminisation of the female recruits (nice and GrimDark^TM). Looking forward to seeing this develop :)

 

Also, welcome to the forum!

[Gripharius]

I always thought that if you were going to do female space marines, there would be one of two ways to do it.  The first was touched on by Silver Fang:

 

 

For what it's worth the Horus Heresy series has several examples of ordinary humans being fitted with only a few of the organs without progenoids. Simple things like muscle and bone growth, all without rejection to create a pseudo-marine.

 

So I think you'd take a group of Sisters of Battle and jack them up with certain of the Space Marine organs, equip them with carapce and power armor, etc.  So, essentially you'd have a Chapter of all female pseudo-Marines.

 

The other route I had thought of was kind of the opposite of what you suggested, but ending up somewhere near the same place.  You'd startt with a Chapter on the verge of extinction and lacking resources to recruit from, and have them induct females as a matter of necessity for survival. 

 

But instead of tampering with the geneseed and organs, my thought was you'd tamper with the women -- intense hormone therapy before implantation to all but eliminate estrogen and jack up testosterone... essentially, strip away as much of the female as you could about them biologically and amplify the male.  Continue the hormone therapy through implantation, suffering a high degree of rejection and failure, until you end up with a very masculine but technically female Space Marine.

 

My problem was that the result of these processes were just Super-Sized Sisters of Battles and "female" Space Marines that weren't any different from male Space Marines.

 

In other words, in explaining how the female Space Marines would come to exist or be created in 40k, I wiped out any reason for actually having female Space Marines.

[Samantha Connor]

I always thought that if you were going to do female space marines, there would be one of two ways to do it.  The first was touched on by Silver Fang:

 

 

For what it's worth the Horus Heresy series has several examples of ordinary humans being fitted with only a few of the organs without progenoids. Simple things like muscle and bone growth, all without rejection to create a pseudo-marine.

 

So I think you'd take a group of Sisters of Battle and jack them up with certain of the Space Marine organs, equip them with carapce and power armor, etc.  So, essentially you'd have a Chapter of all female pseudo-Marines.

 

The other route I had thought of was kind of the opposite of what you suggested, but ending up somewhere near the same place.  You'd startt with a Chapter on the verge of extinction and lacking resources to recruit from, and have them induct females as a matter of necessity for survival. 

 

But instead of tampering with the geneseed and organs, my thought was you'd tamper with the women -- intense hormone therapy before implantation to all but eliminate estrogen and jack up testosterone... essentially, strip away as much of the female as you could about them biologically and amplify the male.  Continue the hormone therapy through implantation, suffering a high degree of rejection and failure, until you end up with a very masculine but technically female Space Marine.

 

My problem was that the result of these processes were just Super-Sized Sisters of Battles and "female" Space Marines that weren't any different from male Space Marines.

 

In other words, in explaining how the female Space Marines would come to exist or be created in 40k, I wiped out any reason for actually having female Space Marines.

 

As far as my background is concerned, the reasons for having female space marines is simply to give the Imperium a method to increase the number of potential recruits. No enhanced Battle Sister is going to come close to the might of the Adeptus Astartes!

 

As for the hormone therapy, that's quite honestly what my background seeks to do. Hormone therapy must happen when young and you couldn't use the standard implants in a female host until she had finished the therapy which is quite a delay. Those responsible for the tampering in my background sought to simply adapt the existing method. With disastrous results.

[Shinzaren]

While the overall concept is a bit sketchy to me at first, you have done an admirable job explaining the why and the how. My only question is how did they survive? Their flaws seem to outweigh their gains, so to speak. They are able to recruit 120% of the rate of a normal chapter, but with 1/3 less full marines? Power armor is a game changer. You have 40 men in power armor, they have 100. You have 20 additional warriors, they have power armor. That armor is insanely defining. I think you may want to explore why they weren't purged as a failed experiment, and why they survive to this day. You may also want to explain how other chapters see them, as the majority of marines are tradition bound and would not look kindly on tampering with their great father's work. Otherwise, I admire the work that went into explaining how it all comes together. 

 

-Shinz

[Samantha Connor]

While the overall concept is a bit sketchy to me at first, you have done an admirable job explaining the why and the how. My only question is how did they survive? Their flaws seem to outweigh their gains, so to speak. They are able to recruit 120% of the rate of a normal chapter, but with 1/3 less full marines? Power armor is a game changer. You have 40 men in power armor, they have 100. You have 20 additional warriors, they have power armor. That armor is insanely defining. I think you may want to explore why they weren't purged as a failed experiment, and why they survive to this day. You may also want to explain how other chapters see them, as the majority of marines are tradition bound and would not look kindly on tampering with their great father's work. Otherwise, I admire the work that went into explaining how it all comes together. 

 

-Shinz

 

Hey there, thanks for replying!

It's certainly a lot of stuff that does need to be worked on- there's a lot of background that I haven't even started on yet that you've brought up. I plan to work on that when I've got the core of the chapter complete.

At this point I'm really struggling with the chapter cult, because I'm never really sure what the cult is or should be.

 

The main defining characteristic I think I'm going to try and carry through with the chapter is their discipline which should be incredible even when Astartes are concerned. More to come later!

[Veteran Sergeant]

Ladymarines and a Shark-furry avatar.  And interesting start, lol.


On the technical aspects, this IA really begs one continuous question: "Why?" Mind you, I'm not opposing the idea you have, simply critiquing the execution and offering some advice as to where you can improve it to align with the fluff.

 

53% of humanity is female, but the Space Marines represent a tiny fraction of a percent of total "humans". There's no shortage of recruits for the Space Marines. A single hive world could supply every single Marine in the Imperium indefinitely, in theory. And that hive world might not even notice the missing people. This really isn't a convincing argument for the need to experiment with female Marines. It's not a fatal flaw in the fluff you've created, but it's one of the most difficult points in leaping the "boys only" hurdle with Space Marines. Space Marines are all male by design, and there's no incentive for the AdMech to mess around with a formula that works the way it is. If Space Marines were mass produced, it would be a different story. The Cursed Founding was about trying to fix geneseed flaws, or create better Space Marines. It wasn't really about experimenting just for the sake of experimenting.

 

55% rejection of the gene seed from screened candiates. 25% failure of progenoids means a 25% reduction in the replacement rate. 60% failure rate of the Black Carapace. This means that the Chapter is only creating twenty seven Space Marines for every one hundred implantation attempts. And then they only get geneseed back from twenty of them. That means for every 100 sets of geneseed, the Chapter is able to replace 47 of them (27 primary sets, twenty secondary sets). Surely you see how this is a problem. A chapter with this kind of issue is failed and going extinct.

 

The idea behind Space Marine Chapters is that while the testing and screening measures are harsh for potential recruits, it results in a close to 100% success rate of the candidates actually chosen for implantation. Because it has to. Each Space Marine Chapter is capable of an approximately 2:1 replacement rate. Meaning each Space Marine can create one new Space Marine, and upon his death, be replaced. This is crucial because a Chapter is never actually going to achieve a 2:1 replacement rate. Some recruits will die, either in training, or before their second set of progenoids fully matures. Weapons in 40K are massive, and cause catastrophic damage which destroy geneseed. Marines can be lost, either to space or natural disaster/effect, or to lost campaigns where the bodies are not recoverable. So excess geneseed is then stored. Your chapter is attriting at a rate four times faster than a normal Space Marine Chapter, but more importantly, at a rate less than 1:1. So while a regular chapter might be able to, over time, stockpile enough extra geneseed to overcome subsequent catastrophic losses (see: Crimson Fists, pre-disappearance Fire Hawks, Invaders), your chapter is unable to even maintain its numbers the way you've written them. Everybody likes to see creativity with hard-luck Chapters, and it's cool to have an underdog. But you've literally written a Chapter that is effectively, and irreversibly, going extinct. And not in the "Because we said so" kind of going extinct that occasionally happens when GW wants to Grimdark up the universe (see: Marines Errant). Your Chapter literally has zero chance of survival.

 

You've basically "over-handicapped" your Chapter to the point where, as written, their fluff doesn't jive with the way Space Marines are created, and Chapters are maintained. You probably need to scale back the severity of some of your fluff, lol.

And ultimately, not only is the Chapter functionally unable to perpetuate itself, it's also only fractionally as useful since only 40% of their Marines are even fully capable as Marines.

[Samantha Connor]

Ladymarines and a Shark-furry avatar.  And interesting start, lol.

 

 

On the technical aspects, this IA really begs one continuous question: "Why?" Mind you, I'm not opposing the idea you have, simply critiquing the execution and offering some advice as to where you can improve it to align with the fluff.

 

53% of humanity is female, but the Space Marines represent a tiny fraction of a percent of total "humans". There's no shortage of recruits for the Space Marines. A single hive world could supply every single Marine in the Imperium indefinitely, in theory. And that hive world might not even notice the missing people. This really isn't a convincing argument for the need to experiment with female Marines. It's not a fatal flaw in the fluff you've created, but it's one of the most difficult points in leaping the "boys only" hurdle with Space Marines. Space Marines are all male by design, and there's no incentive for the AdMech to mess around with a formula that works the way it is. If Space Marines were mass produced, it would be a different story. The Cursed Founding was about trying to fix geneseed flaws, or create better Space Marines. It wasn't really about experimenting just for the sake of experimenting.

 

55% rejection of the gene seed from screened candiates. 25% failure of progenoids means a 25% reduction in the replacement rate. 60% failure rate of the Black Carapace. This means that the Chapter is only creating twenty seven Space Marines for every one hundred implantation attempts. And then they only get geneseed back from twenty of them. That means for every 100 sets of geneseed, the Chapter is able to replace 47 of them (27 primary sets, twenty secondary sets). Surely you see how this is a problem. A chapter with this kind of issue is failed and going extinct.

 

The idea behind Space Marine Chapters is that while the testing and screening measures are harsh for potential recruits, it results in a close to 100% success rate of the candidates actually chosen for implantation. Because it has to. Each Space Marine Chapter is capable of an approximately 2:1 replacement rate. Meaning each Space Marine can create one new Space Marine, and upon his death, be replaced. This is crucial because a Chapter is never actually going to achieve a 2:1 replacement rate. Some recruits will die, either in training, or before their second set of progenoids fully matures. Weapons in 40K are massive, and cause catastrophic damage which destroy geneseed. Marines can be lost, either to space or natural disaster/effect, or to lost campaigns where the bodies are not recoverable. So excess geneseed is then stored. Your chapter is attriting at a rate four times faster than a normal Space Marine Chapter, but more importantly, at a rate less than 1:1. So while a regular chapter might be able to, over time, stockpile enough extra geneseed to overcome subsequent catastrophic losses (see: Crimson Fists, pre-disappearance Fire Hawks, Invaders), your chapter is unable to even maintain its numbers the way you've written them. Everybody likes to see creativity with hard-luck Chapters, and it's cool to have an underdog. But you've literally written a Chapter that is effectively, and irreversibly, going extinct. And not in the "Because we said so" kind of going extinct that occasionally happens when GW wants to Grimdark up the universe (see: Marines Errant). Your Chapter literally has zero chance of survival.

 

You've basically "over-handicapped" your Chapter to the point where, as written, their fluff doesn't jive with the way Space Marines are created, and Chapters are maintained. You probably need to scale back the severity of some of your fluff, lol.

 

And ultimately, not only is the Chapter functionally unable to perpetuate itself, it's also only fractionally as useful since only 40% of their Marines are even fully capable as Marines.

 

Great analysis there, Vet. It's certainly going to be helpful.

 

For the why: Honestly, it's simple personal preference. I feel like I may enjoy the fluff more if I can feasibly introduce Femarines into it, and that's what the chapter aims to do.

 

The reasons for tweaking gene-seed I can't see being as much of an issue as you suggest. I always understood that marines were not mass produced simply due to how particular and gruelling the training and recruitment was, rather than any other reason. Why wouldn't the imperium want to produce as many marines as possible. They do, after all, produce trillions of guardsmen because the 41st millennium needs bodies. The more bodies that are Astartes, the better.

 

As for overnerfing, i'm inclined to agree with you- however, I'm not sure how I would justify the tweaks- will the downside of the chapter be enough to justify the upsides of their predicament?

 

Perhaps the progenoids should be normal and the rate at which implantation 'takes' increased too, in order to flesh out the bulk of the oversize chapter. Really the question is; Does the lack of power armour justify a chapter having 50-100% more members?

[Olis]

Why wouldn't the imperium want to produce as many marines as possible. They do, after all, produce trillions of guardsmen because the 41st millennium needs bodies. The more bodies that are Astartes, the better.

 

Two words: Horus Heresy. An over abundance of marines is generally seen as not a good idea. Also see the Badab War: Although not an instigating factor, the over-strength of the Astral Claws became an additional reason for censure.

 

 

[Samantha Connor]

 

Why wouldn't the imperium want to produce as many marines as possible. They do, after all, produce trillions of guardsmen because the 41st millennium needs bodies. The more bodies that are Astartes, the better.

 

Two words: Horus Heresy. An over abundance of marines is generally seen as not a good idea. Also see the Badab War: Although not an instigating factor, the over-strength of the Astral Claws became an additional reason for censure.

 

While the Horus Heresy saw the legions split, I'm not sure they're all too concerned about the maximum number of Astartes in the galaxy...

I'm not sure about this, more input would be really helpful.

 

I mean, if they didn't want to improve the astartes, surely many of the cursed foundings would never have occured.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Throwing my hat in the ring here, on the subject of cursed foundings:

 

There was a single Cursed Founding and a single Dark Founding. While we know very little of the Dark Founding, the Cursed Founding was an experiment in the viability of fixing (restoration of, not improvement of) deficient geneseed, the increased number of Astartes in the galaxy was a positive (hopefully?) side-effect and not the primary purpose.

 

Overall though, the Imperium has a hard-on for not having too many Astartes, given that they seem to only have Foundings when the Tarot demands it or something to that effect.

 

This has more to do with your last comment regarding cursed foundings than your Chapter.

 

I do like where you're going with this in general though.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Great analysis there, Vet. It's certainly going to be helpful.

 

For the why: Honestly, it's simple personal preference. I feel like I may enjoy the fluff more if I can feasibly introduce Femarines into it, and that's what the chapter aims to do.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean "Why are you doing it?"  I meant why is the Imperium doing it? 

 

Space Marine Chapters are time consuming, and ridiculously expensive to create. They have to make 1000 of these guys, build them a fleet, equip them with tanks and armor and guns and transports, fighters, etc. It's a huge undertaking. So significant that they only do it every several hundred years. 

 

So the important question, any time you want to write fluff for a "non-standard" chapter, is "Why?"

 

It's why believable traitor geneseed chapters are nearly impossible to write. Getting over the "why?" hump is a Herculean task. Female Marines have it even worse. Think about it. The AdMech makes new Chapters using the Ultramarines more than two thirds of the time. Why do they do that? Because the Ultramarines are a known quantity. They know that Ultramarines geneseed works. They know it lacks any significant flaws. And they know the Ultramarines and their successors have historically been some of the most unquestionably loyal of chapters. So if they're going to play with that formula, "Why?" The Cursed Founding happened exactly once in 10,000 years. That means, for 18 Foundings (1 & 2 don't count obviously), the Imperium was completely unwilling to even consider playing around with geneseed. Then, during one Founding, somebody worked up the guts to try, and it failed so badly they never did it again. So when we consider that the 21st Founding was such a monumental departure from the norm, that it took five thousand years before it was even attempted, it puts into perspective just how carefully thought out this all would have been. It wouldn't have been license for the AdMech to go hog wild and play around. Every move would have been carefully considered, and its potential benefits weighed.

 

And that's the "why" you have to answer. "We're going to make new Space Marines, but we're going to see if we can improve the process. What is the potential significance if it succeeds, and is it worth potentially wasting all this geneseed and resources to do it if it fails?"

[Samantha Connor]

 

Great analysis there, Vet. It's certainly going to be helpful.

 

For the why: Honestly, it's simple personal preference. I feel like I may enjoy the fluff more if I can feasibly introduce Femarines into it, and that's what the chapter aims to do.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean "Why are you doing it?"  I meant why is the Imperium doing it? 

 

Space Marine Chapters are time consuming, and ridiculously expensive to create. They have to make 1000 of these guys, build them a fleet, equip them with tanks and armor and guns and transports, fighters, etc. It's a huge undertaking. So significant that they only do it every several hundred years. 

 

So the important question, any time you want to write fluff for a "non-standard" chapter, is "Why?"

 

It's why believable traitor geneseed chapters are nearly impossible to write. Getting over the "why?" hump is a Herculean task. Female Marines have it even worse. Think about it. The AdMech makes new Chapters using the Ultramarines more than two thirds of the time. Why do they do that? Because the Ultramarines are a known quantity. They know that Ultramarines geneseed works. They know it lacks any significant flaws. And they know the Ultramarines and their successors have historically been some of the most unquestionably loyal of chapters. So if they're going to play with that formula, "Why?" The Cursed Founding happened exactly once in 10,000 years. That means, for 18 Foundings (1 & 2 don't count obviously), the Imperium was completely unwilling to even consider playing around with geneseed. Then, during one Founding, somebody worked up the guts to try, and it failed so badly they never did it again. So when we consider that the 21st Founding was such a monumental departure from the norm, that it took five thousand years before it was even attempted, it puts into perspective just how carefully thought out this all would have been. It wouldn't have been license for the AdMech to go hog wild and play around. Every move would have been carefully considered, and its potential benefits weighed.

 

And that's the "why" you have to answer. "We're going to make new Space Marines, but we're going to see if we can improve the process. What is the potential significance if it succeeds, and is it worth potentially wasting all this geneseed and resources to do it if it fails?"

 

Aha I see.

 

This will take some more thinking about, certainly. I'm rather sleepy right now, but I can throw one idea out and that is- given that the creation of a chapter is massively time and resource intensive, perhaps the strongest incentive to altering the gene-seed (or perhaps just the Biscopea) to allow inclusion of Femarines was one of efficiency and trimming the fat. Perhaps they wanted to better leverage the potential of gene seed and waste less time, when the potential pool is twice the size?

 

To continue on that idea, perhaps the idea is that they can rapidly replenish or replace chapters after massive losses brought on by black crusades.

 

With the chapter being a 21st founding 'cursed' chapter, prior to the badab war and the fall of the Astral Claws- perhaps they stand to lose a LOT in the narrative.

[Samantha Connor]

Update:

 

In order to forge a more compelling narrative- I am considering 'piggybacking' the story of an alternate chapter.

 

My main area of interest is that of the Blood Angels as they're my favourite classic chapter visually.

 

In doing so, I would move away from the mass inclusion of scouts.

 

The narrative would, in that case, be altered to a classical attempt to solve the mysteries of the black rage and red thirst, resulting in adverse effects.

This would provide a 'why' in the case of tampering but I'm not certain yet how convincingly I can blend Femarines into the fluff.

 

A first idea is that attempting to get rid of the black rage and red thirst has altered the careful relationship between implanted organs. 

They're more capable and able to successfully implant capable recruits, perhaps in excess of other chapters.

The unfortunate result would be highly increased occurrence of the Black Rage.

 

The result would be a chapter that drastically fluctuates in size, with large swathes of marines falling to the Black Rage, but balanced out by their very rapid recruitment.

 

 

I'm reasonably happy with this concept and any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Lord-Captain Cepinari]

It might just be me, but I really don't see how "By the Throne these Gene-Seed flaws do suck." gets to "Lets try using it on women and see what happens!", unless the experiment was to see if female biochemistry had some special flaw-compensating property.

 

I could make a menstruation joke here, but I won't.

 

If I were to turn my malformed mind to thinking up a Watsonian reason for Femarines, I would hypothesize that the Imperium became aware of a region of space not under it's control, and decided to stick a new Chapter in it and call it a day.  However, the aforementioned region of space suffers from a deficiency in planets populated by homo sapiens in statistically high numbers.  In other words, there's enough planets with people on them to count with your hands, and taken together they have about the same population as India.  Because the new chapter would be stuck out here and would need to recruit from these worlds, altering things so as to give them a better chance at surviving would be a legitimate idea.

 

On the other hand, since potential recruits have a mortality rate of nine out of ten just for the chance of becoming a Scout, which ALSO has a mortality rate of nine out of ten, adding all these additional complications makes it likely your new chapter would be lucky to get one new marine out of a hundred, and I'm probably erring on the nicer side with those numbers.  So yeah, it's a good thing you've already accepted that the Imperium would take one look at this result and toss the project head and all of his notes into the sun, 'cause from a logistical standpoint they're doomed.

[Samantha Connor]

It might just be me, but I really don't see how "By the Throne these Gene-Seed flaws do suck." gets to "Lets try using it on women and see what happens!", unless the experiment was to see if female biochemistry had some special flaw-compensating property.

 

I could make a menstruation joke here, but I won't.

 

If I were to turn my malformed mind to thinking up a Watsonian reason for Femarines, I would hypothesize that the Imperium became aware of a region of space not under it's control, and decided to stick a new Chapter in it and call it a day.  However, the aforementioned region of space suffers from a deficiency in planets populated by homo sapiens in statistically high numbers.  In other words, there's enough planets with people on them to count with your hands, and taken together they have about the same population as India.  Because the new chapter would be stuck out here and would need to recruit from these worlds, altering things so as to give them a better chance at surviving would be a legitimate idea.

 

On the other hand, since potential recruits have a mortality rate of nine out of ten just for the chance of becoming a Scout, which ALSO has a mortality rate of nine out of ten, adding all these additional complications makes it likely your new chapter would be lucky to get one new marine out of a hundred, and I'm probably erring on the nicer side with those numbers.  So yeah, it's a good thing you've already accepted that the Imperium would take one look at this result and toss the project head and all of his notes into the sun, 'cause from a logistical standpoint they're doomed.

 

Well, we know that the admech revere technology and that while innovation may be stagnant, the Emperor's message was one of scientific truth. I think that we can assume that anybody interking with the genetic composition of a marine would duly test it everywhere and anywhere possible. We're not talking about something simple or low key- we're talking about the masterwork of the very lord of the Imperium that they are fiddling with.

 

Any opportunity to test a new alteration would want to be tested on as many people as possible. Perhaps through testing they noticed fluctuations in hormone levels, altered biscopean growth and this breadcrumb trail led them into testing the concept on women, only to find that they've stumbled upon some sort of breakthrough, only for greater and greater problems to slowly arise.

 

Of course whatever happens, the ideal balance will be 1:1 useful ratio of marines when compared to any other chapter.

[NightrawenII]

@Lord-Captain Cepinari↲

Your idea with low population is cotraproductive. If you remove women from the reproduction pool, then you are drasticaly reducing the birthrate.

[Samantha Connor]

@Lord-Captain Cepinari↲

Your idea with low population is cotraproductive. If you remove women from the reproduction pool, then you are drasticaly reducing the birthrate.

 

It's worth mentioning that those suitable for even the most preliminary phases of recruitment will only be a tiny portion of any population- I don't think it's particularly counterproductive.

 

As for me- I'm working on Blood Angels based fluff. Stay tuned! :3

[helterskelter]

Have you built any models for the chapter yet? I'm quite looking forward to seeing how turn your vision to the tabletop