Knights Errant, Dark Angels, Grey Knights Discussion

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

 

Lord Lorne Walkier - well it is at the least definite that the members listed on lexicanum (except perhaps Umojen) are all confirmed. so you might want to at least revise your list to fit that. 

 

Helter - please discuss something in posts, not just state that the numerous missing details are driving you crazy.  if you were on the other hand throwing out the opinion that the traitors were not as efficient as they claimed to be in their purges as a point of discussion, then that is different.

Nothing has been confirmed about the 8 Founding members of the Grey Knights with the possible exception of El' Zurias.  I agree that they might all be Knight errants but this is not a automatic pass into the Grey Knights. Some or all of them could get killed before the 8 are gathered.   Even if they do become apart of the Grey Knights it dose not mean they will be the Founding Grand Masters.  It is all speculation until the Horus Hersey book about the Siege of Terra is released and there is a chapter about what Malcador dose in those final moments before he takes the Emperors place on the Golden Throne.   I don't see the Half heard having what it takes to make my list so he will remain off.  With Loken being on my list i see Qruze as being redundant.

Um...Actually the HH series has stated that at least those 5 are confirmed Knights Errant and that the Knights Errant become the founding Grand Masters of the Grey Knights.  It does not however, say where the other "regular" marines are formed from

Maybe you could provide the relevant quote form a HH book?  The part about these five being the grandmasters that is.  Having been obsessed with this topic, i find it hard to believe Ive missed such a direct statement on who is or is not a Founding Grey Knight Grandmaster.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

hmm thats an interesting possible explanation

[Scribe]

Honestly, this plot line adds what to the Horus Heresy? That they gathered up the dudes to make the Grey Knights before the Scouring? Unless these Knights Errant are the guys in grey behind the Emperor in the Adrian Smith piece, they are nothing but a distraction from the main plot, and suck up time that could be used doing something else. 

 

So much thisssssssss.

 

I've been 100% out of the loop on this entire sub plot, and yes its a sub plot. Why, as an HH fan, as a Legion fan, and the opposite of a GK fan, should I care about these guys? What have they added?

[helterskelter]

Helter - please discuss something in posts, not just state that the numerous missing details are driving you crazy.  if you were on the other hand throwing out the opinion that the traitors were not as efficient as they claimed to be in their purges as a point of discussion, then that is different.

point the second. Angron seems least efficient in his tasking as when we get to betrayer theres Lhorke, on his flagship no less, waking up asking "wait why are we fighting ultras?"

[Perrin]

Didn't ADB or someone say none of the KE will survive the Heresy, or there are around 30 of them or something? I doubt Malcador is gathering them for the sole purpose of using them as GK Grandmasters, more likely they will be formed into some sort of SpecOps team, or used as agents and assassins, maybe even to counter the Cabal and their plans, and that by the time Titan is sent into the warp only 8 are left, so their "final" mission is to train this new chapter.

 

I think Omegon and Sevatar are in with a shout of being Grandmasters. Not a huge chance but it looks like the Alphas are heading to civil war, and if Alpharius wins and destroys all of Omegons support, but Omegon survives then where else does he have to turn but to Malcador. There's also the name Janus being a possible pointer and the secret armour in his room that was pointed out in that short story.

 

No pointers for Sevatar really, apart from the marine in ADBs NL series saying he thinks that Sevatar is alive, and the name Khyron seems like a nod to a Night Lord, with them seeming replace C with K in the spelling of bat like things like the Kyroptera, which is taken from the name for the bat species, Chiroptera. This spelling style would mean that Khyron in normal spelling would be Chiron, another ancient Greek/Roman name like Janus and Epithemus (close to Epimetheus).

 

 

EDIT: I don't have the book with me so I can't remember if the NL said that he thinks Sevatar is alive, or just that he didn't die when everyone else thought he had. On that note, is there anything written about when in-universe characters think Sevatar died?

[A D-B]

Didn't ADB or someone say none of the KE will survive the Heresy, or there are around 30 of them or something? I doubt Malcador is gathering them for the sole purpose of using them as GK Grandmasters, more likely they will be formed into some sort of SpecOps team, or used as agents and assassins, maybe even to counter the Cabal and their plans, and that by the time Titan is sent into the warp only 8 are left, so their "final" mission is to train this new chapter.

 

I think Omegon and Sevatar are in with a shout of being Grandmasters. Not a huge chance but it looks like the Alphas are heading to civil war, and if Alpharius wins and destroys all of Omegons support, but Omegon survives then where else does he have to turn but to Malcador. There's also the name Janus being a possible pointer and the secret armour in his room that was pointed out in that short story.

 

No pointers for Sevatar really, apart from the marine in ADBs NL series saying he thinks that Sevatar is alive, and the name Khyron seems like a nod to a Night Lord, with them seeming replace C with K in the spelling of bat like things like the Kyroptera, which is taken from the name for the bat species, Chiroptera. This spelling style would mean that Khyron in normal spelling would be Chiron, another ancient Greek/Roman name like Janus and Epithemus (close to Epimetheus).

 

 

EDIT: I don't have the book with me so I can't remember if the NL said that he thinks Sevatar is alive, or just that he didn't die when everyone else thought he had. On that note, is there anything written about when in-universe characters think Sevatar died?

 

I tend not to say much about the Knights Errant in general; only when someone mistakenly says "X is confirmed" or whatever. I've not commented on their survival or their numbers as far as I know. Might've been Jim, he comments on them a fair bit.

 

As for Sev, the Night Lords differ on just how and when he died, but those who say he survived ("King Arthur will return to Britain in its time of need! I swear!") apparently have no evidence - or at least none they offered. Most believe he died in the Heresy.

 

 

 

Honestly, this plot line adds what to the Horus Heresy? That they gathered up the dudes to make the Grey Knights before the Scouring? Unless these Knights Errant are the guys in grey behind the Emperor in the Adrian Smith piece, they are nothing but a distraction from the main plot, and suck up time that could be used doing something else. 

 

I'm fine with sideplots. But by the same resonance, I don't care that Darth Vader was best friends with R2-D2, and that he built C3-P0. Sometimes, things are better left unexplained. Sometimes, mystery is the best answer.

 

 

 

 

Lord Lorne Walkier - well it is at the least definite that the members listed on lexicanum (except perhaps Umojen) are all confirmed. so you might want to at least revise your list to fit that. 

 

Helter - please discuss something in posts, not just state that the numerous missing details are driving you crazy.  if you were on the other hand throwing out the opinion that the traitors were not as efficient as they claimed to be in their purges as a point of discussion, then that is different.

Nothing has been confirmed about the 8 Founding members of the Grey Knights with the possible exception of El' Zurias.  I agree that they might all be Knight errants but this is not a automatic pass into the Grey Knights. Some or all of them could get killed before the 8 are gathered.   Even if they do become apart of the Grey Knights it dose not mean they will be the Founding Grand Masters.  It is all speculation until the Horus Hersey book about the Siege of Terra is released and there is a chapter about what Malcador dose in those final moments before he takes the Emperors place on the Golden Throne.   I don't see the Half heard having what it takes to make my list so he will remain off.  With Loken being on my list i see Qruze as being redundant.

Um...Actually the HH series has stated that at least those 5 are confirmed Knights Errant and that the Knights Errant become the founding Grand Masters of the Grey Knights.  It does not however, say where the other "regular" marines are formed from

 

I'm not sure the series has stated the Knights Errant are the Grey Knights founders. I know Jim's publically said the opposite when asked (his actual quotes are usually along the lines of reminding people of the difference between something's inception and 10,000 years of its evolution, as well as the misunderstandings inherent in the 40K setting's celebrated ignorance), and unless I missed a meeting and/or missed the books where that's confirmed, that feels a bit like speculation confirmed as false fact.

[Perrin]

Um...Actually the HH series has stated that at least those 5 are confirmed Knights Errant and that the Knights Errant become the founding Grand Masters of the Grey Knights. It does not however, say where the other "regular" marines are formed from

I'm not sure the series has stated the Knights Errant are the Grey Knights founders. I know Jim's publically said the opposite when asked, and unless I missed a meeting and/or missed the books where that's confirmed, that feels a bit like speculation confirmed as false fact.

THAT'S what I was thinking of Sorry ADB, I couldn't remember who had said it and cause you're probably the most engaging BL author I think my brain just went "Yup, must have been him".

So, assuming that does end up to be true, that rules out all of the current Knights-Errant. Zahariel isn't a KE as far as I know, so that still casts him as Epithemus. The GK that Abbadon talks about in Pandorax could be Iacton Qruze? He doesn't seem to be a Knights-Errant so far, although this is all based on 2nd hand info, I'm not a fan of audio books.

[march10k]

Point of Order!

 

 

Epimetheus is almost certainly a former Dark Angel, but he will have been recruited by the Sigilite centuries before The Fall. As such, while he is certainly a fugitive from his Legion (perhaps the first "traitor" to that Legion, although it would be the simplest thing to clear up the misunderstanding), it is incorrect to label him "fallen."  Since you got this information about him from Pandorax, you clearly were not paying attention.  That label only applies to those who followed Luther into error.  Those who willfully abandoned their brothers before or after that *incident* do not merit the honor of being counted among the fallen.  As you stand accused of the high misdemeanor of incorrectly categorizing Epimetheus as one of the Fallen, and as there is no record of the existence of an effective alibi or defense for this hideous crime, you are automatically guilty and will report to room 42 for...debriefing.

[Perrin]

I think "centuries" before the Fall is a bit much.

 

You are correct though, the timing is way off. He would have been recruited before the Siege, so unless there is a huge retcon the Fall occurs after the Siege, while the GK are in the warp.

 

I think that is covered in Pandorax though, doesn't the GK say that his place was taken by another when he is accused of being a Fallen?

 

 

EDIT: According to Lexicanum Abaddon captures Epithemus because he wants to study his geneseed and because he wants knowledge of the other living Grandmasters. Does this mean Abaddon has actual knowledge/evidence that other GK founders are still alive much like Epithemus was, or is it just a throwaway line?

[Oiad]

I believe Abaddon knows bits of information about the Grey Knights, a lot more than they'd like anyone else to know but not the whole picture. I chalk this down to both events we've yet to witness in the Horus Heresy series and information obtained from both the Chaos Gods and/or other various sources who have uncovered such secrets.

 

Just to be pedantic:

 

*SPOILERS*

 

Abaddon doesn't want to study the Grey Knight's geneseed personally. Instead, he has had it cultivated it from an imprisoned Epimetheus in order to obtain Fabius Bile's services for the upcoming 13th Black Crusade. What Abaddon wants with Epimetheus is to completely break him, something he says he "could wait for all eternity" for. Doesn't look like he gets to do so though because as we know from the Black Legion supplement, Abaddon exchanges Epimetheus in an offer with Fulgrim in order to gain favour with Slaneesh and for loyalty from all the remaining warband's of the Emperor's Children that are still under Fulgrim's full command.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Didn't ADB or someone say none of the KE will survive the Heresy, or there are around 30 of them or something? I doubt Malcador is gathering them for the sole purpose of using them as GK Grandmasters, more likely they will be formed into some sort of SpecOps team, or used as agents and assassins, maybe even to counter the Cabal and their plans, and that by the time Titan is sent into the warp only 8 are left, so their "final" mission is to train this new chapter.

I think Omegon and Sevatar are in with a shout of being Grandmasters. Not a huge chance but it looks like the Alphas are heading to civil war, and if Alpharius wins and destroys all of Omegons support, but Omegon survives then where else does he have to turn but to Malcador. There's also the name Janus being a possible pointer and the secret armour in his room that was pointed out in that short story.

No pointers for Sevatar really, apart from the marine in ADBs NL series saying he thinks that Sevatar is alive, and the name Khyron seems like a nod to a Night Lord, with them seeming replace C with K in the spelling of bat like things like the Kyroptera, which is taken from the name for the bat species, Chiroptera. This spelling style would mean that Khyron in normal spelling would be Chiron, another ancient Greek/Roman name like Janus and Epithemus (close to Epimetheus).

EDIT: I don't have the book with me so I can't remember if the NL said that he thinks Sevatar is alive, or just that he didn't die when everyone else thought he had. On that note, is there anything written about when in-universe characters think Sevatar died?

The Knights Errant consist of the Founders of the GK and possibly, although there is only limited evidence, the founding marines of Deathwatch. although i dont really see the evidence for that. Omegon does not make sense at all. he is a Primarch and follows his legion (he is seen leading them during the HH) and as others said Sevatar is dead. the deal with Khyron is possible, but keep in mind that it seems the Knights Errant changed their names.

Um...Actually the HH series has stated that at least those 5 are confirmed Knights Errant and that the Knights Errant become the founding Grand Masters of the Grey Knights. It does not however, say where the other "regular" marines are formed from

I'm not sure the series has stated the Knights Errant are the Grey Knights founders. I know Jim's publically said the opposite when asked, and unless I missed a meeting and/or missed the books where that's confirmed, that feels a bit like speculation confirmed as false fact.

THAT'S what I was thinking of Sorry ADB, I couldn't remember who had said it and cause you're probably the most engaging BL author I think my brain just went "Yup, must have been him".

So, assuming that does end up to be true, that rules out all of the current Knights-Errant. Zahariel isn't a KE as far as I know, so that still casts him as Epithemus. The GK that Abbadon talks about in Pandorax could be Iacton Qruze? He doesn't seem to be a Knights-Errant so far, although this is all based on 2nd hand info, I'm not a fan of audio books.

Zahariel is certainly a possibility for Epimetheus, in fact he is one that i very much like. It seems that Abaddon does referance Iacton is some way relating to the GK, though not as Epimetheus. Iacton is a Knight Errant, he was one of the first recruited because he arrived with Garro.

Point of Order!

Epimetheus is almost certainly a former Dark Angel, but he will have been recruited by the Sigilite centuries before The Fall. As such, while he is certainly a fugitive from his Legion (perhaps the first "traitor" to that Legion, although it would be the simplest thing to clear up the misunderstanding), it is incorrect to label him "fallen." Since you got this information about him from Pandorax, you clearly were not paying attention. That label only applies to those who followed Luther into error. Those who willfully abandoned their brothers before or after that *incident* do not merit the honor of being counted among the fallen. As you stand accused of the high misdemeanor of incorrectly categorizing Epimetheus as one of the Fallen, and as there is no record of the existence of an effective alibi or defense for this hideous crime, you are automatically guilty and will report to room 42 for...debriefing.

like others said im not sure about centuries. either way ok fair enough, hes not actually Fallen, but i was using it more to get the point across that he is recruited somewhere around there according to what iv read. It seems to be suggested that it was during that time because Iacton had infiltrated the DA. there is a lot of uncertainty as to exactly when though so its very confusing. Room 42 - hm say hi to the Interrogator Chaplain for me

I think "centuries" before the Fall is a bit much.

You are correct though, the timing is way off. He would have been recruited before the Siege, so unless there is a huge retcon the Fall occurs after the Siege, while the GK are in the warp.

I think that is covered in Pandorax though, doesn't the GK say that his place was taken by another when he is accused of being a Fallen?

EDIT: According to Lexicanum Abaddon captures Epithemus because he wants to study his geneseed and because he wants knowledge of the other living Grandmasters. Does this mean Abaddon has actual knowledge/evidence that other GK founders are still alive much like Epithemus was, or is it just a throwaway line?

in terms of being accused of being Fallen, i believe his words are referring to another marine, specifically Cypher. which is why i think a lot more about Cypher now makes sense to me, rather than just be random actions.

in regards to Grand Masters, im pretty sure that Abaddon was referring mostly to the current ones. we know of the first 8 that at least Khyron is dead and other 6 also likely dead, but its not been said so far. and then there is Epimetheus obv.

I believe Abaddon knows bits of information about the Grey Knights, a lot more than they'd like anyone else to know but not the whole picture. I chalk this down to both events we've yet to witness in the Horus Heresy series and information obtained from both the Chaos Gods and/or other various sources who have uncovered such secrets.

Just to be pedantic:

*SPOILERS*

Abaddon doesn't want to study the Grey Knight's geneseed personally. Instead, he has had it cultivated it from an imprisoned Epimetheus in order to obtain Fabius Bile's services for the upcoming 13th Black Crusade. What Abaddon wants with Epimetheus is to completely break him, something he says he "could wait for all eternity" for. Doesn't look like he gets to do so though because as we know from the Black Legion supplement, Abaddon exchanges Epimetheus in an offer with Fulgrim in order to gain favour with Slaneesh and for loyalty from all the remaining warband's of the Emperor's Children that are still under Fulgrim's full command.

can you provide a source for that? that some very important info that can certainly change things here.

[Perrin]

The part about Epimetheus being given to Fulgrim is in the Black Legion codex supplement, he does it to gain support from the EC.

My point about the possibility of Khyron being Sevatar (or any Night Lord) is based exactly on the fact that GK changed their names. What I meant was Khyron fits as a name that a Night Lord would choose, because the make up/spelling of the name matches how they've been shown to spell things so far.

Like ADB said above, it has been mentioned by people from BL that the Knights-Errant aren't the founders of the GK, or rather denied in the way that BL reps do. It does seem like a perfect fit, you have this bunch of exceptional marines, you need a group of exceptional marines to create this new chapter, who else would you pick? But until it is confirmed in canon then it's really just speculation.

About living GK founders, what evidence do you have that the rest are dead? All of the 8 tombs on Titan were thought to be occupied, but Epimetheus has turned up on Pythos. Why would Abaddon be pumping a GK that has been in statis for a few millennia on information about current GK Grandmasters? Epimetheus didn't even know the Ordo Malleus are his bosses.

Regarding Omegon, how does any of us know that he is seen leading his forces in the Heresy? They are Alphas after all. What we have seen is a rift in the Alpha Legion, with Alpharius and Omegon both following a different path, even going so far as to attack their own Legions bases to help Loyalist forces. If the two groups come to open warfare and one Primarch loses, I think it is possible that he would get picked up by Garro and the gang. Janus fits perfectly with the AL twins, and I'm sure they've been represented by a statue of Janus before. Who better to train a Chapter that will live on secrecy for the next 10,000 years than an Alpha Legion Primarch? Then there's the armour in his quarters which has yet to be explained, but I'm pretty sure is described as the same as Garro and Qruze's armour.

Anyway, this is probably my favourite storyline of the HH series so far. I just wish they didn't follow it through audiobooks all of the time

[Wade Garrett]

I like that the main objection to Sevatar not being a Grey Knight is that he's supposed to be dead post Heresy. Not that he was the first soul to scream "Death to the False Emperor!" or that he spends the whole Heresy up to the Siege fighting for the Traitor Legions with a great deal of skill and determination, or that he's just a whee bit tetched in the head, what with the childhood of talking to birds and killing other children to eat them...yes. Clearly, this is a man who is qualified to be an incorruptible, forever loyal to the Emperor of Mankind daemon fighter, if only cruel fate hadn't cut his life short.

[Perrin]

I like that the main objection to Sevatar not being a Grey Knight is that he's supposed to be dead post Heresy. Not that he was the first soul to scream "Death to the False Emperor!" or that he's spends the whole Heresy up to the Siege fighting for the Traitor Legions with a great deal of skill and determination, or that he's just a whee bit tetched in the head, what with the childhood of talking to birds and killing other children to eat them...yes. Clearly, this is a man who is qualified to be an incorruptible, forever loyal to the Emperor of Mankind daemon fighter, if only cruel fate hadn't cut his life short.

All true, but aren't most marine aspirants recruited because they have psychopathic tendencies? Their job is to utterly destroy anything they're pointed at, who cares if they used to talk to birds. Incorruptible and loyalty to the Emperor are qualities that Sevatar sorely lacks, although he has followed Curze into a war that he seems not to believe in, and he hates chaos. He is however one of the best fighters in the galaxy, is a very charismatic leader and commander and has some psychic ability. If I had to pick a list of the best marines in the galaxy he would be top 3 easily and all the qualities that anyone would need to be a founding member of the GK.

Ya know... apart from the whole "Death to the False Emperor" thing.

If Malcador played it as a chance for him to fight chaos and destroy the tyrants that have pretty much used his Legion as a punchbag to distract the DA, rather than a chance to serve the Emperor faithfully, I think he could be turned. He seems rather discontent during the last NL short story however he does still seem pretty loyal to Curze, so as of yet seems unlikely to turn.

Aye, Sevatar did die in the Heresy, when Khyron was born

Tbh I realise this is unlikely, and has almost no evidence or foreshadowing pointing to it, I just find the whole theory pretty interesting, as well as Sevatar being such a badass I really don't want him to die

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Wade - your absolutely right

 

Perrin - Epimetheus worked with an Inquisitor and modern DA so he knows that things have changed. any info he might have is useful to Abaddon. BL reps deny everything simply because they never give up info until its published. in regards to Omegon, you need to read Deliverance Lost.  Also i read Legion, which focuses on the AL and i still dont see any evidence for a rift.

 

i certainly wish they made a book, maybe an omnibus would be nice.

 

aspirants are not recruited for that at all in most chapters.  Sevatar is out because he is dead and because his loyalty was to Konrad and no one else.  If he did live it would have been too late to recruit him. the GK was formed already.

 

its fine to wish it were true, but to argue that something that is impossible is a possible KE is kinda pointless

[Perrin]

Wade - your absolutely right

 

Perrin - Epimetheus worked with an Inquisitor and modern DA so he knows that things have changed. any info he might have is useful to Abaddon. BL reps deny everything simply because they never give up info until its published. in regards to Omegon, you need to read Deliverance Lost.  Also i read Legion, which focuses on the AL and i still dont see any evidence for a rift.

 

i certainly wish they made a book, maybe an omnibus would be nice.

 

aspirants are not recruited for that at all in most chapters.  Sevatar is out because he is dead and because his loyalty was to Konrad and no one else.  If he did live it would have been too late to recruit him. the GK was formed already.

 

its fine to wish it were true, but to argue that something that is impossible is a possible KE is kinda pointless

 

I have read Deliverance Lost thanks, although I wish I hadn't. Have you read The Serpent Beneath in The Primarchs collection? Clearly shows Omegon working against Alpharius for his own ends, as of yet unexplained, but has the obvious and intended effect of ensuring the White Scars are able to reach Terra before the Siege, which someone working to ensure Horus wins wouldn't have wanted. Furthermore Omegon hides what happened from Alpharius.

 

From Lexicanum:

Recruits are chosen from the best warriors among humanity. Naturally, this makes Feral Worlds prized recruitment grounds, as such harsh and primal conditions produce the best warriors. However, Hive Worlds are considered the ideal source of potential recruits, the populace of the lower levels composed of some of the most murderous scum in the human Imperium. Whole gangs of hive scum are sometimes hunted down and captured for recruitment. Among the most valued traits in a recruit are aggression and psychotic-level killer instinct. Much more rarely, certain Civilised Worlds are also recruited from.

 

From various sources, and everything I've read since that goes into detail about space marine aspirants.

 

Improbable yes, impossible? No. The GK were formed during the closing stages of the Heresy, as of yet they haven't been formed, and Sevatar is still very much alive. He isn't alive during current 40k sure, but neither are 6 of the other GK founders. The Prince of Crows short also shows what I believe to be Sevatars loyalty starting to fade, or at least his support of the Heresy. With Curze's continued descent into madness I doubt his loyalty is going to get any stronger.

 

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, but the kind of "psychotic-level killer instinct" Nostramo is famed for is also the mentality that is directly responsible for driving an entire Legion and its Primarch off the deep end.

 

Astartes prize something like Punisher, Jason Todd and Deathstroke. Nostramo created people like Joker, Scarecrow and Riddler, who are just completely whacked in the head.

[Wade Garrett]

If you can't see the difference in an eyeball eating manflayer who murders his brother officers because he doesn't have TIME to put up with their nonsense and Justicar Alaric or Hyperion Bladebreaker then I don't know what else to say.

 

Sevatar is as good a pick for a possible GK Grandmaster as Khârn, Argel Tal, or Julius Karoseon, and him turning on Curze because Malcador made a rousing speech about how Chaos is bad, m'kay? Is as likely as the idea that at the Siege of Terra Sigismund will get fed up with how Dorn treated him in "Crimson Fist", behead all the VII guys fighting with him, and jump on Conqueror when it leaves Terra so he can hang out with those who truly understand the brotherhood of warriors and living by the sword.

[Perrin]

Yeah, but the kind of "psychotic-level killer instinct" Nostramo is famed for is also the mentality that is directly responsible for driving an entire Legion and its Primarch off the deep end.

 

Astartes prize something like Punisher, Jason Todd and Deathstroke. Nostramo created people like Joker, Scarecrow and Riddler, who are just completely whacked in the head.

 

Not disputing that at all, NL aspirants are so much worse than normal aspirants, but the fact is that a psychotic nature is something that is looked for in any aspirant.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

its not a psychotic instinct they are looking for its rather a warrior-like mentality and resourcefulness developed by their cultures in order to survive.

 

also, Omegon and Alpharius as said be one being in 2 bodies, they have always acted in concert.  Their actions may seem disconnected, but there is always a combined mindset and plan, as seen before.  The 2 primarchs were born of secrecy and have always been shrouded in secrecy and uncertainty, to allies and enemy alike, sometimes even their legionaires.

[Perrin]

If you can't see the difference in an eyeball eating manflayer who murders his brother officers because he doesn't have TIME to put up with their nonsense and Justicar Alaric or Hyperion Bladebreaker then I don't know what else to say.

 

Sevatar is as good a pick for a possible GK Grandmaster as Khârn, Argel Tal, or Julius Karoseon, and him turning on Curze because Malcador made a rousing speech about how Chaos is bad, m'kay? Is as likely as the idea that at the Siege of Terra Sigismund will get fed up with how Dorn treated him in "Crimson Fist", behead all the VII guys fighting with him, and jump on Conqueror when it leaves Terra so he can hang out with those who truly understand the brotherhood of warriors and living by the sword.

 

As I said in my last post, I'm not saying that a Nostramo aspirant and an aspirant from the Ultramarines for example is the same by any stretch of the imagination. What I said was all marine aspirants have some level of psychotic attitude, this was disputed, I provided a quote from background canon that proved it was correct. I'm not going to write up a diagram showing the levels of psychotic-ness, a psychopath is a psychopath, and a psychopath is a marine.

 

I know it's clearly an exaggeration, but I'll bite anyway. Khârn is alive in 40k, Argel Tal is dead and his death was depicted in a published BL novel, Julius Karoseon becomes a Daemon Prince. None of these things happen to Sevatar. ADB has said he isn't around in 40k, that still leaves 10,000 years for anything to happen to him. Nowhere has it been said when Sevatar dies, or where. Until that happens I believe this theory can still happen, HOWEVER unlikely.

 

Also Sevatar kills the rest of the Khyroptera because they wouldn't follow his directions and wanted to destroy the Legion through carrying on the Thramas Crusade, not really as simple as "they wouldn't listen to him". Similar to when the noble Logan Grimnar kills a GK Grandmaster because he didn't like what he had told him to do in the Emperor's Gift. Or when the Ultramarines destroyed a whole city because the master of the Legion that conquered the planet and turned it into a completely compliant world had taught them the wrong things. Or when the World Eaters did anything ever.

[Perrin]

its not a psychotic instinct they are looking for its rather a warrior-like mentality and resourcefulness developed by their cultures in order to survive.

 

also, Omegon and Alpharius as said be one being in 2 bodies, they have always acted in concert.  Their actions may seem disconnected, but there is always a combined mindset and plan, as seen before.  The 2 primarchs were born of secrecy and have always been shrouded in secrecy and uncertainty, to allies and enemy alike, sometimes even their legionaires.

 

But as the quote I posted says, it is a psychotic instinct they look for, as well as the other attributes you described.

 

I take it you haven't read the Serpent Beneath then? Because they are definitely not acting in concert. Omegon kills his own Legions warriors to destroy a device that was blocking the White Scars from the rest of the galaxy, allowing them to begin the journey to Terra. When Alpharius gets a report about this and asks Omegon about it Omegon blames it on an asteroid.

[Wade Garrett]

Grimnar killed that Grandmaster AFTER he claimed credit for opening fire on the Great Wolf's battle barge during peace negotiations.

 

You honestly believe that's the equivalent of Sevatar's little coup? I'm starting to see why you think the Prince of Crows is a viable leader for the Grey Knights.

[Perrin]

Grimnar killed that Grandmaster AFTER he claimed credit for opening fire on the Great Wolf's battle barge during peace negotiations.

You honestly believe that's the equivalent of Sevatar's little coup? I'm starting to see why you think the Prince of Crows is a viable leader for the Grey Knights.

The tone of your posts are starting to seem a little insulting, I'm sure you don't mean them to read that way though

So you don't have an answer for the other instances? I'm pretty sure it isn't hard to find more examples of marines being psychopaths.

I haven't said I believe it to be the absolute truth, I do however believe it to be an interesting theory. I have said all along there is little/no background evidence to support it, I was merely exploring the possibility.

It must be impossible though right? Much like Loken being alive, Cyrene coming back to life, Vulkan being a Perpetual, the Alpha Legion being behind everything...

EDIT: On topic, forgot to add, Garro definitely isn't a founding father, James Swallow confirmed in an interview. This kind of casts doubt on the whole Knights-Errant = GK Founders theory. Plus most of them aren't psykers.

[Wade Garrett]

There is a nonzero possibility that Sev could be one of the Grey Knights.

 

In much the same sense that maybe the big reveal of the last Heresy novel is Sanguinus is the corpse on the Golden Throne and the Emperor and Horus have been too busy playing Call of Duty in the Imperial basement to do anything for the last ten thousand years.

 

And the destruction of Monarchia? Really? You mean where the Ultramarines evacuated the entire city before they destroyed it, and responded with deadly force only when rioters started shooting at them?

 

Yes. Clearly the actions of barely controlled psychopaths, and indistinguishable from the Night Lords giggling to one another as they skin babies alive and throw them into pits to die.