Knights Errant, Dark Angels, Grey Knights Discussion

[Perrin]

There is a nonzero possibility that Sev could be one of the Grey Knights.

 

In much the same sense that maybe the big reveal of the last Heresy novel is Sanguinus is the corpse on the Golden Throne and the Emperor and Horus have been too busy playing Call of Duty in the Imperial basement to do anything for the last ten thousand years.

 

And the destruction of Monarchia? Really? You mean where the Ultramarines evacuated the entire city before they destroyed it, and responded with deadly force only when rioters started shooting at them?

 

Yes. Clearly the actions of barely controlled psychopaths, and indistinguishable from the Night Lords giggling to one another as they skin babies alive and throw them into pits to die.

 

I have never argued that the Night Lords aren't worse than other marines. As I'm pretty sure I've already said in this thread, I am aware that the Night Lords are much worse than other marine aspirants in terms of psychotic tendencies. However psychotic tendencies is something that is looked for in aspirants regardless of the chapter.

 

Again, before the Garro audio-book series started there was a nonzero possibility that Loken was alive. Before Vulkan Lives there was a nonzero possibility that Vulkan was a perpetual. There is enough evidence within the HH background to support Sevatar becoming a GK founder, however unlikely.

 

Addressing your hilarious points, it is impossible that Sanguinius is on the Golden Throne as his body is in a sarcophagus on Baal, and Horus has been completely obliterated body and soul so it is actually impossible that he has been playing Call of Duty for the last 10,000 years. There is nothing physically impossible about Sevatar turning his back on Curze, finding the Emperor's light and becoming a GK founder. HOWEVER UNLIKELY.

 

I'm pretty sure this thread is going to get closed soon if this carries on, as I seem to be making the same replies to the same posts over and over. Please just read my previous replies, I must have covered everything by now.

[Wade Garrett]

Sanguinus is in a coffin on Baal? Why? Because the Blood Angels say they have it there? Just like the Night Lords say that Sevatar is dead?

 

How would they know? You get hit with a Lightning Claw enough times and one really tall armored corpse is going to look like another.

 

But Sanguinus must be the body on Baal. Just like Primarchs must not be able to be Perpetuals. Or the Alpha Legion must be unable to mimic specific Ultramarines so well even Guilliman is fooled.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

This is getting out of hand. Perrin, you are ignoring evidence that contradicts what your saying or completely misunderstanding the point of some agruments here.  Its gotten to the point where half of what your saying is not even rational anymore.  That is why Wade is writing as he is, because your being irrational.

[Perrin]

Sanguinus is in a coffin on Baal? Why? Because the Blood Angels say they have it there? Just like the Night Lords say that Sevatar is dead?

 

How would they know? You get hit with a Lightning Claw enough times and one really tall armored corpse is going to look like another.

 

But Sanguinus must be the body on Baal. Just like Primarchs must not be able to be Perpetuals. Or the Alpha Legion must be unable to mimic specific Ultramarines so well even Guilliman is fooled.

 

Because the sarcophagus appears in a Blood Angels novel, it is made of liquid gold held in a field to keep it liquid and moulds itself to Sanguinius face. The equivalent would be the Night Lords having Sevatars body on display, which they don't. They don't even have a location or date of when he was killed or any eyewitness reports on how he died, or any loyalists taking credit for killing one of the greatest Space Marines ever to have lived, just that he died "during the Heresy".

 

I'm sorry I really don't understand the point you're making about Primarchs must not be able to be Perpetuals or the Alpha Legion must be unable to mimic specific Ultramarines, because that's the point I made about it not being impossible for Sevatar to be a GK founder. None of those are impossible because they have happened.

[Perrin]

This is getting out of hand. Perrin, you are ignoring evidence that contradicts what your saying or completely misunderstanding the point of some agruments here.  Its gotten to the point where half of what your saying is not even rational anymore.  That is why Wade is writing as he is, because your being irrational.

 

I'm sorry but I disagree. What evidence have I ignored? If anything it is my points that are being ignored. I apologise if I am coming across that way but I certainly don't mean to be irrational.

 

Feel free to point out any evidence I have ignored and I will address the points, or if I don't have an answer I will accept that the evidence directly counters my theory.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Wade does not literally mean that, hes giving similar thoughts to your irrational ideas. hes trying to help you see why they dont make sense by giving similar examples. although i would agree that Sang's body is on Baal.

 

seriously, if you dont understand how your being irrational, then these replies are pointless.  your points are not being ignored, then were being discussed. and then your decided to become irrational and it all went south.  there is too much evidence already stated im not going to reiterate for you. go reread stuff or do some digging online and maybe you will see what we are saying.

[Perrin]

Wade does not literally mean that, hes giving similar thoughts to your irrational ideas. hes trying to help you see why they dont make sense by giving similar examples. although i would agree that Sang's body is on Baal.

 

seriously, if you dont understand how your being irrational, then these replies are pointless.  your points are not being ignored, then were being discussed. and then your decided to become irrational and it all went south.  there is too much evidence already stated im not going to reiterate for you. go reread stuff or do some digging online and maybe you will see what we are saying.

 

Again, I apologise if I seemed irrational. I'll try to sum up the arguments for and against then. I'd like to point out again that I'm not saying I believe Sevatar is a GK founder, only that it is an interesting theory that isn't impossible

 

     For

• The spelling of Khyron points to a Night Lord.
• Prince of Crows suggests that Sev was unhappy with the role the NL had been given in the Heresy and the direction the Legion was heading in.
• The statue of Khyron shows him holding a chainglaive, the same weapon that Sev is known as using (obviously loads of marines could use the same weapon)
• One of the best fighters in the galaxy, renowned leader and commander, psyker, all attributes that would be desirable for a GK founder.
• Hates chaos/daemons
• No evidence of his death, only that he is not alive as of the 41st millennium and that everyone believes he is dead.

 

   Against

• Probably dead, believed by everyone including most of his own Legion.
• News of his death caused the Atramentar to disband, so there must have been some kind of evidence otherwise they would probably have looked for him.
• No loyalty to the Emperor or Imperium ("Death to the False Emperor")
• Complete loyalty to Curze and the Night Lords
• Psychopath, even compared to other Night Lords
• No reason whatsoever to join Garro and his band of merry men

 

I think I've been pretty fair in summing up the "debate"? I do hope I've avoided anymore accusations of being irrational.

 

With that put to rest, hopefully the thread can continue? I'd hate to think that I played a part in a thread about a topic I'm interested in dying.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Has anyone thought that Maybe Narek the Former Vigilator of the Word Bearers will make it back to earth and become a Knight errant?  There was a time when i had written off the XVII Legion for harboring any loyalists.    I still no no evidence for any loyalists form the Night Lords.  If a not so bad guy like Talos went bad i don't see any of the darker nastier astartes who make up the VIII Legion.    I also can't see any Alpha Legion joining the proto Grey Knights.  They may or may not be loyal but they seem to follow one of their two Primarchs no matter what.

[Perrin]

The smaller Legions numbered around 90,000 in size right? I think there is room for loyalists from all of the Legions, including Night Lords and Alphas. Word Bearers are a stranger one because they began their loyalist purges decades before the Heresy began but I still wouldn't say it's impossible, especially if they are motivated by faith, as is Narek.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Has anyone thought that Maybe Narek the Former Vigilator of the Word Bearers will make it back to earth and become a Knight errant? There was a time when i had written off the XVII Legion for harboring any loyalists. I still no no evidence for any loyalists form the Night Lords. If a not so bad guy like Talos went bad i don't see any of the darker nastier astartes who make up the VIII Legion. I also can't see any Alpha Legion joining the proto Grey Knights. They may or may not be loyal but they seem to follow one of their two Primarchs no matter what.

That makes a bit more sense than Sevatar. I mean heck, this guy has already killed at least two possessed who were personally selected by Erebus in CQC and he has the gumption to go on a solo crusade to kill his own Primarch. The only thing I might see as a problem for qualification is the part at the end where it says he still hates the Loyalists as much as he hates the corrupted Traitors.

[Kais Klip]

I take it you haven't read the Serpent Beneath then? Because they are definitely not acting in concert. Omegon kills his own Legions warriors to destroy a device that was blocking the White Scars from the rest of the galaxy, allowing them to begin the journey to Terra. When Alpharius gets a report about this and asks Omegon about it Omegon blames it on an asteroid.

 

I doubt this is what Lord Marshal meant, but the reccuring theme for the twins is them walking two alternate routes that result in a favourable third one; a middle ground of sorts. Now I am all pro-XX-Legion heresyception, however I also would not be surprised if the actual fight to the death between Alpharius and Omegon ended with one of them dead and the other "we did it bro :_)"

[Bryan Blaire]

While this doesn't proven for certain that Zahariel is not involved in the Knights-Errant, that name is listed amongst the names easily read in the list of Fallen on the back cover of the DA LE Codex. While there could be a mistake in the "entry" on the list or there could have been two Zahariels on Caliban, one that left prior to the Fall and one that actually became Fallen, I think it is more likely that Zahariel didn't become Epithemius.

[Oiad]

 

...

 

Abaddon doesn't want to study the Grey Knight's geneseed personally. Instead, he has had it cultivated it from an imprisoned Epimetheus in order to obtain Fabius Bile's services for the upcoming 13th Black Crusade. What Abaddon wants with Epimetheus is to completely break him, something he says he "could wait for all eternity" for. Doesn't look like he gets to do so though because as we know from the Black Legion supplement, Abaddon exchanges Epimetheus in an offer with Fulgrim in order to gain favour with Slaneesh and for loyalty from all the remaining warband's of the Emperor's Children that are still under Fulgrim's full command.

 

 

can you provide a source for that? that some very important info that can certainly change things here.

 

Sources:

• 'Pandorax' by L.J. Goulding (Postlude)
• 'The Black Legion - A Codex: Chaos Space Marines Supplement' by Robin Cruddace (Pg. 48, 50 & 51)

[Perrin]

While this doesn't proven for certain that Zahariel is not involved in the Knights-Errant, that name is listed amongst the names easily read in the list of Fallen on the back cover of the DA LE Codex. While there could be a mistake in the "entry" on the list or there could have been two Zahariels on Caliban, one that left prior to the Fall and one that actually became Fallen, I think it is more likely that Zahariel didn't become Epithemius.

 

Unless the list used is just a record of all the DA on Caliban when it Fell. Luther has already turned so I doubt he would be sending the Lion updated roster lists.

[Bryan Blaire]

Unless the list used is just a record of all the DA on Caliban when it Fell. Luther has already turned so I doubt he would be sending the Lion updated roster lists.

Right... those would be the Fallen, those DA on Caliban when it Fell.

 

So if any Zahariel left before the Fall, he wouldn't be on Caliban and therefore wouldn't be Fallen.

 

However, the name Zahariel is listed amongst the Fallen.  Therefore, a Zahariel was on Caliban when it Fell.

 

Whether that was the same Librarian Zahariel from the DA HH books or not remains to be seen.  Unless there were two Librarians named Zahariel (an event I think even more unlikely than simply having two Marines named Zahariel - see below), only the one Librarian Zahariel was actually available to leave Caliban and go become a Knight-Errant/original GK Grand Master, and we have not had any evidence yet that Zahariel actually did so.  So it's an even split (did or didn't) without evidence and down to your own personal belief whether he did so.  I don't think he did and given what happened to Nemiel, Zahariel may actually have a reason to question the Lion and "Fall" in behind Luther anyway (yes, they weren't on the best terms, but they basically grew up brothers and the killing of one's brother at the hands of the other rarely makes one feel fondness or loyalty to the killer).  That part of the story, though, remains to be seen.

 

I already conceded that there may have been more than one Dark Angel on Caliban named Zahariel.  I think it is unlikely, but it was a huge Legion and Luther had been pumping out Marines at a fast rate, so they may have reused a name (even though it was a given name for the boy before he became a Marine and not given after they started the tradition of renaming Marines to "angelic"/"Calibanite" names), but to that effect, I think they probably would have used some sort of designator so that multiple Marines didn't turn around every time a name happened to be called (or they made sure that Marines with the same name were deployed in different areas - again probably killing the idea that there were multiple Zahariels on Caliban).

 

All of this makes me think it is unlikely that Zahariel is Epithemius, unless he became Epithemius after the Fall (which given the nature of the Warp and the Ordo Chronos giving us some precedent for time travel in some fashion, could have occurred, I still find that unlikely).

 

TL;DR:

One of three options:

1) There are two Zahariels (one a Librarian, one other one of some kind) on Caliban, and the Librarian left before the Fall to become Epithemius, leaving the other on Caliban to be included amongst the list of the Fallen.

2) There is one Zahariel, the Librarian, and he was on Caliban when it Fell (regardless of his "loyalty" to Luther/the Emperor and Lion), and therefore is the person named on the list of Fallen and not Epithemius.

3) Zahariel (only the one) was on Caliban when it Fell (let's him be included on the list of Fallen), got thrown back a bit in time, and became Epithemius before the Fall.

 

I know which one seems the simplest to me, and therefore the one I go with until further evidence presents itself.  However, YMMV, and therefore, barring other evidence, the choice is yours.

[Perrin]

Agree with all of that. What I meant was that the list of Fallen that the Loyalist DA have is probably a list of all DA stationed on Caliban at the time of the fall, but wouldn't have been updated since Luther had cut contact with the rest of the Legion and the Imperium. Zahariel could have been picked up by the Knights-Errant before the Siege and left to go to Titan, but the loyalist DA with the Lion wouldn't have been informed of this, so as far as they're are concerned Zahariel was still on Caliban, because they weren't told of him leaving. It's an easier explanation than time travel.

 

Another thing, Epithemius is, imo, based on Epimethius from Roman and Greek mythology, as it fits with Janus and Khyron (Chiron). Epimetheus was a titan, the brother of Prometheus. Epithemius being a DA fits with it being Zahariel, the only DA that has come up in the Heresy so far as having a brother, Nemiel (cousin raised as brothers rather).

 

Obviously all just theories.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

 

Wade does not literally mean that, hes giving similar thoughts to your irrational ideas. hes trying to help you see why they dont make sense by giving similar examples. although i would agree that Sang's body is on Baal.

 

seriously, if you dont understand how your being irrational, then these replies are pointless.  your points are not being ignored, then were being discussed. and then your decided to become irrational and it all went south.  there is too much evidence already stated im not going to reiterate for you. go reread stuff or do some digging online and maybe you will see what we are saying.

 

Again, I apologise if I seemed irrational. I'll try to sum up the arguments for and against then. I'd like to point out again that I'm not saying I believe Sevatar is a GK founder, only that it is an interesting theory that isn't impossible

 

     For

• The spelling of Khyron points to a Night Lord.
• Prince of Crows suggests that Sev was unhappy with the role the NL had been given in the Heresy and the direction the Legion was heading in.
• The statue of Khyron shows him holding a chainglaive, the same weapon that Sev is known as using (obviously loads of marines could use the same weapon)
• One of the best fighters in the galaxy, renowned leader and commander, psyker, all attributes that would be desirable for a GK founder.
• Hates chaos/daemons
• No evidence of his death, only that he is not alive as of the 41st millennium and that everyone believes he is dead.

 

   Against

• Probably dead, believed by everyone including most of his own Legion.
• News of his death caused the Atramentar to disband, so there must have been some kind of evidence otherwise they would probably have looked for him.
• No loyalty to the Emperor or Imperium ("Death to the False Emperor")
• Complete loyalty to Curze and the Night Lords
• Psychopath, even compared to other Night Lords
• No reason whatsoever to join Garro and his band of merry men

 

I think I've been pretty fair in summing up the "debate"? I do hope I've avoided anymore accusations of being irrational.

 

With that put to rest, hopefully the thread can continue? I'd hate to think that I played a part in a thread about a topic I'm interested in dying.

 

you summed it up well enough, but the problem is "I'd like to point out again that I'm not saying I believe Sevatar is a GK founder, only that it is an interesting theory that isn't impossible" is a logical fallacy.  Believing that something is possible and saying that you are not saying it is possible doesnt make sense.  i still hold that the evidence against that idea makes it impossible that he is a candidate.  that does not rule out a NL for a loyalist, but they would not be Sevatar. in fact of those NL characters named, it would likely have been a member of Talos' band (though obv that didnt happen).

 

While this doesn't proven for certain that Zahariel is not involved in the Knights-Errant, that name is listed amongst the names easily read in the list of Fallen on the back cover of the DA LE Codex. While there could be a mistake in the "entry" on the list or there could have been two Zahariels on Caliban, one that left prior to the Fall and one that actually became Fallen, I think it is more likely that Zahariel didn't become Epithemius.

 

Well the uncertainty about when exactly Epimetheus was recruited leaves a lot of possibilities for which DA he is.  so we cant rule out some of the Fallen.  We also have remember that they were only referred to as Fallen after Caliban was destroyed.  Certainly senior members of the command staff on Caliban should be considered for the role as many either did not realize it or firmly did not believe that they were serving chaos' designs. in fact, it could be argued that Luther was the only one actually touched by it, and it was simply his poisonous thoughts that were tainting the others during that immediate time, afterward is different.

[Bryan Blaire]

Yes, but Caliban was "enshrouded by Warp storms since Horus' betrayal", so unless Zahariel or other staff had a way out through the Warp storms (or we get evidence that contradicts the DA Codex about said storms), I don't think they would have been able to leave. We do know that Luther had been passing information as late as the novel Fallen Angels because they have knowledge of how quickly he's been able to get new recruits turned into Marines.

 

Granted, the Codexes have some conflicts (seemingly) with the HH story line sometimes, but without actual text saying otherwise, I doubt that Zahariel or others from Caliban were able to leave after the events in Fallen Angels, as it was probably Luther and the fun and games with the Oroborus demon that triggered the enshrouding Warp storms and other texts have shown that once Warp storms envelop something, you can't get through them.

 

Some of it comes down to the timing of said Warp storms or if there were breaks people could get through (or force their way through at a great loss of lives or use of power).

[Perrin]

Although in Grey Angel Iacton Qruze is sent to Caliban to judge their loyalties and is imprisoned. He is then helped to escape by Cypher who appears to be loyal to the Emperor while also seeing that Luther has fallen to Chaos. I don't think it is mentioned when this happens but I think it's after the events in Fallen Angels. Qruze is then able to leave.

 

Epithemius implies that he is helped to escape by Cypher, as Qruze was, and Cypher appears to know some way of travelling distances using the warp or something, like when he keeps escaping from the DA in 40k. It could be that Zahariel wants to get word to Terra about exactly what has happened on Caliban and the whole thing about the daemon and Cypher uses powers of the warp to teleport Zahariel off-world.

[Bryan Blaire]

Which is interesting, because Cypher appears to be the last Knight of Lupus on Caliban, who it is thought introduced Luther to the sorcerer's library and also part if the group keeping the last of the Chaos-touched Beasts of Caliban in captivity. If anything, I would have pegged his loyalty to Caliban, although we don't really know what the Lion may have done to change his mind (possibly even forcibly?).

[GhostMalone]

I feel when it comes to cypher he holds only loyalty to caliban the emperor and the watchers in the dark

 

Iirc it was loken who was captured by Luther, I actin acts as a seeker and goes to bust him out and cypher helps them escape.

 

This may sound weird but what if cypher and zahriel switched? Zahriel may be the 40k cypher seeking redemption and we know the cypher is no traitor which he may later need to head to terra & rather than arouse suspicion have zahriel take his place so he may become a knight errant

[Augustus]

Didn't we have a discussion about the possibility of Sevatar being a GK and AD-B came out as supportive to the creative endeavor for the community who was proposing it?

[Perrin]

He tweeted "No, that isn't what happens to Sevatar. Nice try, forums. Nice try." at roughly the same time as the discussion I think, but there are a lot of warhammer forums, so could have been about something else.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Didn't we have a discussion about the possibility of Sevatar being a GK and AD-B came out as supportive to the creative endeavor for the community who was proposing it?

No, a lot of people were just going "No!" and he asked them to explain why. Once explanations were given, he wasn't really seen on the thread again.

[Wade Garrett]

My opinion is and is most likely to remain that saying "Sevatar could be a Grey Knights founder if he could have turned his back on the Atramentar and Curze" is a lot like saying "Angron could have been the Warmaster if he could have just learned to control that temper of his". If ADB as author wants to have that happen, it's his prerogative to do so, but I feel it would require significantly altering if not ignoring key aspect's of Sevatar's character to pull off.

 

No, as far as possible GK founders go, what about Crysos Mortug, the Death Guard ex-Librarian who survived Isstavan III? So far he's only appeared in Forge World's fluff, but he does have the psychic talent AND the unbreakable loyalty to the Emperor the role (in my opinion) requires.