Knights Errant, Dark Angels, Grey Knights Discussion

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

We know he regretted his actions but he stood by his instincts.

Nemiel is dead end of story, let's not derail this to much

nemiel's death was a shame, he was good character. although i felt he was underdeveloped.

Yeah so does ferrus didn't you know he's now a megazord!

bahahahahaha thats hilarious!

[GhostMalone]

Well the floating head zoron in the original power rangers.....

 

Yeah it's ferrus ;)

[GhostMalone]

Behold Ferrus!!!!!

 

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y524/Taron_James_Beer/image_zpsdffb4412.jpg

[Wade Garrett]

"Santar, recruit a team of Iniates with attitude!"

[depthcharge12]

I fear the Jeff is a-coming

[Kol Saresk]

 

I fear the Jeff is a-coming

He's just waiting for the Salamander to become a White Scar.

[GhostMalone]

 

 

 

I fear the Jeff is a-coming

He's just waiting for the Salamander to become a White Scar.

Fun fact guys before this thread gets closed.....

 

Giraffes were horses till Jeff bitch slapped them

 

:D

[A D-B]

Didn't we have a discussion about the possibility of Sevatar being a GK and AD-B came out as supportive to the creative endeavor for the community who was proposing it?

 

I sincerely hope not, as that'd have been coming down way too heavily on one side, and I try to stay balanced. I think in that specific example, I thought some of the reasons it wasn't possible were a bit weak, and commented on them. Of course, I have my own reasons why it'd be a stretch, but a lot of things are stretches - if they're written well, that's all that matters in the end. 

 

On a more general note to the thread:

 

I think it's possible as Sev's fate. Given that there's a lot of time and a long path between the Thramas Crusade and the Scouring, it's not even that much of a reach to say I reckon it could be a compellingly written anti-fall, explained clearly and in detail across the span of that pretty serious space of time. But I think a lot of Sev's suggested fates are possible. In deciding what to do with him (which was locked down a while ago) there were about six potential fates on the cards, and each one would need a book or two to go through. In regards to him "turning", we're not talking about being cut with a Blue Team anatheme and instantly all is well. Similarly, staying as a rebel isn't just a matter of thinking everything's great and can stay as it is. Sevatar's abiding mindset at the moment is that he's not on anyone's side but his own brothers'. Everything is changing and falling apart, and Prince of Crows shows him beginning to react to that entropy.

 

I like character arcs. For perspective, look at how I showed Lorgar at the start of the Heresy and over time, compared to how the other primarchs are shown. (I'm not saying it's better, but it's very different). If you take one book as The Whole Story, then it'll never make sense. Sevatar will be the same. Of course his motivations and journey aren't clear in a novella and a short story practically at the war's beginning. Just like Lorgar wasn't always going to be the "weakest" primarch (a phrase I despise - he was the primarch that only found his place after the Betrayal).

[Aegnor]

Is there any reason why Zahariel couldn't be one of the Fallen AND a member of the Knights Errant and thus possibly later one of the founders of the Grey Knights. After all, he's the first person we see the Emperor speak to in the Horus Heresy series - maybe it was a sign he was destined for great things? ;)

 

But someone who was on Caliban as it all went to Hell (literally) might well be counted as Fallen by the DAs, but scooped up by Malcador for his team of super friends, if he showed resistance and loyalty to humanity and the Emperor. That's exactly the profile of Garro, Qruze and Loken. We know that at least some of the Fallen considered themselves loyal.

 

That would mean interesting things in terms of what the Inquisition knew about the Fallen from the very dawn of the DAs schism. But that bridge is possibly alreafy jumped off with the addition of Epimethius.

 

Personally, at the moment, I kinda hope Sevetar doesn't end up being a founding Grey Knight. The GKs are cool and I like them, but Sev is also already cool with his own interesting arc to journey on. Shoe-horning him into the GK mythology would add little to how interesting he is and would in my opinion distract from the potentialities of his main arc (which I see as centered around the Night Lords and their fate).

 

This is my gripe about Loken becoming one of the Knights Errant - his arc in the first three books was perfect, stuff after that feels like a movie series where they do one too many sequels just for the sake of it. Whereas Garro's arc was always taking him to a fate other than confronting his own legion/Primarch.

[Marshal Rohr]

"Cut with a blue team athame"

 

 

*slow clap*

[Wade Garrett]

On the one hand it still boggles my mind that Sevatar, a man who went fighter surfing so he could die beside his Primarch and his Atramentar brethren, would ever say "Bollocks to you lot, I'm going to be pals with Malcador and Loken now."

 

On the other claw...

 

"Fulgrim? Primarch so loyal his Legion was granted the right to wear the Palatine Aquila and truest companion of Ferrus Manus, betray the Emperor and kill the Gorgon? WHAT MADNESS DO YOU SPEAK?"

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

i will that if Sev was turned in the series, then who ever were to write that story better explain it excessively well or no one will believe it. HERESY!!!

the questions regarding the Fallen and the relationship between the DA and GK was exactly what i was thinking of too.

bloody Fulgrim was mistake from the beginning

[Clewz]

Don't know if its me falling hook line and sinker for an obvious BL trap but could Janus actually be Omegon? 

 

In the visions that ferrus was experiencing the imagery of the god  Janus was hinting at Alpharius Omegon and then theres the whole matter of the suit of armour Omegons got stashed away. Plus who better to be the first grand master than an actual primarch

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

we already addressed that

[LongGone]

No disrespect intended to the more seasoned brethren here, but I've gotten a chuckle or two from some of the responses to this thread and the theories put forth. That Perrin was summarily dismissed for his 'logical fallacy' was a little unfair. He put forth a 'possible theory' and presented evidence for both sides, but was basically shouted down with NEVAAARrrr!!!!. People are arguing absolutes in a universe where absolutes have been shown to be as rickety and ramshackle as an Ork construct. Pre-HH fluff has been turned on its head time and time again. So much so, that I've begun to suspect BL authors actually being AL operatives. To dismiss a theory, ANY theory, about a make believe universe, because you don't like the substantiated, make believe evidence, smacks of... I don't know, but I don't like it.

 

Welcome to Mother Russia, where rainbow tastes you.

[GhostMalone]

It's the fact that ADB has provided evidence against it and for it, without solid fact it's all speculation.

 

It's not dismissing it's asking for a 100% logically sound argument that can change someone's stance.

 

Not this is what I think due to these two similarities.

 

It needs to be a well rounded execution of an argument.

 

I could say Saul travitz is a knight errant but the realistic outcome of more survivors of the virus bombing and extermination of istvaan iii would be unlikely.

 

We know ancient ryalnor is still kicking somewhere, but if loken then Saul is bought back after Lucius betrayal and killing of his brother Saul managed to come back it wouldn't make sense.

 

All guys like Wade Kol Cormac Heathens Myself and others want is fluff and realistic backing to provide a legitimate arguement

[LongGone]

I for one, think the two unknown GK grandmasters are Bucky Kat and Satchel the dog. Because the parallel between BL novels and Get Fuzzy are just too strong to ignore.

[Kol Saresk]

Well honestly Long Gone, the theories about Sevatar from both sides of the fence are shaky. But even AD-B just said that if Sevatar were to become a Grey Knight founder, it would involve some sort changing journey.

 

Basically, it wouldn't be the Sevatar from Prince of Crows. That Sevatar is currently in a "Screw the Emperor, screw the Warmaster and screw the pooch!" stage.

 

The Grey Knights are noted for their unwavering loyalty. Sevatar's loyalties are currently only to him and his.

 

Then again, pretty much any Night Lord's loyalties are questionable, depending on the person asking. Even Curze didn't know of anyone with loyalty towards the Emperor.

 

Khyron is similar to Kyroptera in that the Ch has been replaced with the harder "K" sound. Not exactly solid, but doable.

 

Khyron has a chainglaive. Well so far we have only seen Sevatar with a chainblade, but at least the Phoenix Guard have been seen with halberd-like weaponry. Maybe one of those guys traded in for a chain-weapon. Maybe he's the guy who killed Sevatar and took his weapon as a trophy.

 

If the history of the name has any value on why it was chosen/given, then the person now wearing the name Khyron is either assigned to be a teacher, or was a natural choice for the role. Either way, its going to have to be someone with the patience to deal with hundreds of snot-nosed brats. Sevatar didn't have the patience to deal with his own brothers. And he's a Night Lord whose actually loyal to the Legion. Maybe there might be another Night Lord who has more patience. I would say Malcharion but we already know his story.

 

Now, Astartes do recruit for psychopathic tendencies. If that was the only condition, Night Lords would be perfect. But its not the only condition. There's the condition that those psychopathic tendencies are controlled and put towards productive use. Otherwise you wind up with Traitor Marines and Renegades. And the Grey Knights especially need this level of control since they're a scalpel sent to investigate, discover and excise daemonic threats. The closest thing a Night Lord has to control is headbutting an armored Astartes while not wearing a helmet. At least, that is the typical Night Lord.

 

So maybe, all the nos hinge on "maybe". But so do the yeses. Maybe Khyron is a Night Lord. Maybe he's a White Scar or an Emperor's Children. Maybe he's even a Custodes.

 

We don 't know. Now granted, saying "Sevatar isn't a Grey Knight because he's Sevatar!" is a stupid and weak argument.

 

Personally, I would like to see Sevatar be one of those characters who just "disappears" with "no ultimate truth that only we the readers know." One day he's there, and the next he's gone. That's it. No "he died" or "he became a Grey Knight" or "he retired and became a grox farmer." No nothing. Just he was supposed to report for battle and he didn't.

[Chief Captain Redd]

I just had to point this out, The Crimson King himself, Magnus the Red has been depicted with a chainglaive for years. Maybe it was one of his sons.

[LongGone]

That's the point Kol, every theory, whether its about Sevatar or any of the other named characters in the HH series, is shaky and thinly supported at best, wild and unsubstantiated conjecture at worst. Until its written down in black and white in the series, then nothing is true, everything is permitted. Even stuff we believe is canon is subject to change.

 

I took issue with the way a poster's theory was challenged and summarily dismissed, when neither viewpoint has the most solid ground to stand on. That said, we should now return to our regularly scheduled fluff debate. My apologies for any perceived hijackage.

[Wade Garrett]

I would like to point out that according to page 153 of my copy of The Emperor's Gift Khyron's statue is shown with a nemesis halberd, not a chainglaive.

 

Not saying "NO! NOT SEVATAR!" because ADB himself has confirmed there is no neat character us Traitors have that the Loyalists can't take away one way or another, just being pedantic about Khyron's weapon of choice. As determined by a statue carved who knows how long after his dearh.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

That's the point Kol, every theory, whether its about Sevatar or any of the other named characters in the HH series, is shaky and thinly supported at best, wild and unsubstantiated conjecture at worst. Until its written down in black and white in the series, then nothing is true, everything is permitted. Even stuff we believe is canon is subject to change.

 

I took issue with the way a poster's theory was challenged and summarily dismissed, when neither viewpoint has the most solid ground to stand on. That said, we should now return to our regularly scheduled fluff debate. My apologies for any perceived hijackage.

 

perhaps, but one argument is certainly better supported

[Augustus]

I apologize AD-B. I thought you were supportive of the creativity while not necessarily saying it was a correct theory. IIRC people were browbeating the person who presented the theory. I thought you more or less came out saying its as valid as any other theory regarding Sevatar albeit unlikely. My mistake. :(

[Kol Saresk]

That's the point Kol, every theory, whether its about Sevatar or any of the other named characters in the HH series, is shaky and thinly supported at best, wild and unsubstantiated conjecture at worst. Until its written down in black and white in the series, then nothing is true, everything is permitted. Even stuff we believe is canon is subject to change.

 

I took issue with the way a poster's theory was challenged and summarily dismissed, when neither viewpoint has the most solid ground to stand on. That said, we should now return to our regularly scheduled fluff debate. My apologies for any perceived hijackage.

No, maybe this part does need to be discussed. Because personally, I wasn't shooting it down. I was pointing out the reason why I wasn't sure it would work.

 

And believe it or not, things can be written down, and not be black and white. For example Deliverance Lost. There is a passage when Corax first meets the Emperor. There Emperor is happy. And then Corax asks how he only has 17 brothers if he was the 19th made. The Emperor gets this sorrowful look on his face, turns away from Corax and says "We'll talk about those two another time."

 

Sounds like it might be in reference to the Lost Primarchs, right? Nope. Well, not entirely. It was apparently saying there were still two Primarchs to be found.

 

The way Betrayal is written, Mortug and a handful of others would survive two betrayals and Istvaan and then live to revenge themselves upon their Legion.

 

Sounds like it might mean they escaped or turned into suicide bombers right? Not exactly clear, correct?

 

According to Laurie Goulding whatever happened is clearly written down in black-and-white.

 

So things can be written down and still left muddled and unclear. But honestly, saying something "could be" because "I want to see it this way" has very little fluff-standing.

 

I can sit there and point to actual fluff reasons why Sevatar at this point in time or any known, stereotypical Night Lord either couldn't be a Grey Knight founder, or would make a poor choice for one and how those reasons could be similarities. That is the point of debate. Create a premise, present the premise and either have it proven, disproven, or rebuttled until it can be proven or disproven. Currently it is nothing more than rebuttled. And even the smallest reference to a Knight-Errant with obvious ties to the VIII Legion(even if no name is given) could give the largest leaning towards proving this theory, even though it is another theory entirely on whether or not the Knight-Errants will even become the Grey Knight Founders.

[LongGone]

Shenanigans.

 

Very well, we shall continue. 

 

I'm all for debate, and the give and take that goes along with that. That's not what happened when Perrin presented a theory, a theory that he thought could be possible, and presented evidence for both sides of the argument. It was dismissed as ludicrous (yeah I know that exact wording was in response to another poster, but that poster was putting forth the same theory, and the general theme of the responses to Perrin were the same). Some went so far as to attack his canon evidence, as if that evidence was somehow less than the canon they used to support their own arguments (which goes back to the whole nothing is true, everything is permitted thing). 

 

It's funny, because your argument for Night Lords not turning is literally "because I want to see it this way." Even when presented with evidence of other traitor legions, once considered wholly corrupted, also having loyalists, the overwhelming response was NEevaAAARRRR!!!. Before the HH series, who would have thought the World Eaters, or any traitor legion for that matter, would have loyalist elements? Why should the Night Lords be an exception now that it has been shown that not every single Marine in the chaos legions turned to the dark side? Every argument you make for your position could have been made for the other legions before BL created their loyalists hold outs. The truth is you can't say it won't happen. Every thing you point to can be blown away by 'Hurricane BL' tomorrow morning. Canon isn't canon. 

 

It should be noted that I'm not arguing for or against a particular theory.  I'm not saying you have to agree with Perrin, or ANY poster who puts forth a theory. It's all theoretical and make believe, and the 40K universe will be different from one person to the next. I just thought it was unfair how some members of the forum climbed up on their high fluff horse to beat down another forum member. 

 

Also, that first line in your sig gave me all the lols the internet has to offer.