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A Question to the Emperor's Children Fans

The Nephilim

By The Nephilim
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The Nephilim Veteran

The Nephilim

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So I have a question for my fellow EC fans. I'm in the middle of Angel Exterminatus, so no crazy spoilers here please, but as I'm reading this, I'm recalling and even referencing back to Fulgrim. The Emperor's Children have always been my favorite Legion. I have always loved my sonic weapons and the debauchery of the Dark Prince... but that said, seeing the transformation from Fulgrim to Angel Exterminatus actually made me cringe a little and made me remorseful for what the Legion lost. I know you're probably supposed to, but it really impacted me.

 

Has anyone else had similar feelings or am I a nut?

Slave to Darkness Venerable Brother

Slave to Darkness

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I'll see. When I get time to read more. Once my CoC vow is done.

Audiobook mate... biggrin.png I hate painting with a passion, Id rather do housework all day than pant but slap on a 12+ hour audio book and lll paint all day...

I dont remember much from Fulgrim, but after 'Angel' I thought 'Fulgrim, what a $"£^%', they really make the bad guys nasty, my main army is Word Bearers and after Fear to Tread and Betrayer I really hate Erebus -.-

Tenebris

Tenebris

Posted
Posted

Well I think that it was a bit too rushed, we speak of a relatively small time window between Istvaan and the events that followed in the wake of the 3rd legion. On one side I think that the "degeneration" was poorly written, Slaanesh is varied and what we have got was a relatively "generic" chaos degeneration, on the other side I really missed some serious Slaaneshi corruption. Excess is one thing, but we speak of highly cultured people, of warrior poets and artisans of the blade and the bolter, we speak of the pinnacle in astartes perfection yet in a certain way the chaotic behavior of many other legions was much much better written and done.

 

The true question is if they have really lost something? The author seems to think so, but I am of a different opinion, the 3rd has lost nothing, it simply took a step further and embraced its true calling. Everything done by the legion before should be portrayed in the magnitude increased by tenfold. Their rituals should become elaborate concerts, their meetings supreme acts of theater and act, their combat style increased to include the blessings of Slaanesh...yet this was not the case.

 

The problem is that the author was fairly narrow minded when comes to Slaanesh. To him a Slaaneshi is simply a drug junkie, with a certain flair for theater and an urge to beat, ravage and destroy everything and everyone, which I think it is far from the case. I think Angel Exterminatus should be more mindful of the legion character and their persona rather than devolve them to the common preconception of a Slaaneshi written in the book.

 

If you read the World Eaters, Word Bearers books you notice a steady degeneration into chaos practices and rituals, a subtle yet present shift in the character of the Legions and its heroes, ... Angel Exterminatus was very rushed, hence it failed in its task to provide background for the evolution of the Emperor's Children and the ascension of Fulgrim...

 

my 2 cents...

The Nephilim Veteran

The Nephilim

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Well I think that it was a bit too rushed, we speak of a relatively small time window between Istvaan and the events that followed in the wake of the 3rd legion. On one side I think that the "degeneration" was poorly written, Slaanesh is varied and what we have got was a relatively "generic" chaos degeneration, on the other side I really missed some serious Slaaneshi corruption. Excess is one thing, but we speak of highly cultured people, of warrior poets and artisans of the blade and the bolter, we speak of the pinnacle in astartes perfection yet in a certain way the chaotic behavior of many other legions was much much better written and done.

 

The true question is if they have really lost something? The author seems to think so, but I am of a different opinion, the 3rd has lost nothing, it simply took a step further and embraced its true calling. Everything done by the legion before should be portrayed in the magnitude increased by tenfold. Their rituals should become elaborate concerts, their meetings supreme acts of theater and act, their combat style increased to include the blessings of Slaanesh...yet this was not the case.

 

The problem is that the author was fairly narrow minded when comes to Slaanesh. To him a Slaaneshi is simply a drug junkie, with a certain flair for theater and an urge to beat, ravage and destroy everything and everyone, which I think it is far from the case. I think Angel Exterminatus should be more mindful of the legion character and their persona rather than devolve them to the common preconception of a Slaaneshi written in the book.

 

If you read the World Eaters, Word Bearers books you notice a steady degeneration into chaos practices and rituals, a subtle yet present shift in the character of the Legions and its heroes, ... Angel Exterminatus was very rushed, hence it failed in its task to provide background for the evolution of the Emperor's Children and the ascension of Fulgrim...

 

my 2 cents...

 

I felt exactly the same way. Then again, I understand why he wrote it that way. Graham McNeill is one of GW's better authors. I imagine that GW has some pretty strict red pens that prohibit the complete degradation that should have been shown, at least in my opinion.

Dammeron Veteran

Dammeron

Posted
Posted

I totally empathise with your reaction, though I had exactly the opposite: it appears to me that Fulgrim and his legion have not "descended" or degenerated at all: they have reached a status of freedom and enlightenment within the universe in which they operate: Fulgrim's abandonment of parameter following his experiences of possession and confinement seem to me to be particularly enlightened, given that he, like Lorgar, has managed to see and experience beyond the limitations to which he was born and the purpose for which he was fashioned: given that, in the 40K universe, the only alternative to the potential immortality, poetry and purpose Chaos provides is nihilistic enslavement to the Imperium or massacre by aliens, the transformation of Fulgrim and his legion is neither horrendous nor degenerative. If anything, they have simply acknowledged that the limitations with which they were originally conditioned are arbitrary and explicitly designed to maintain a particular status quo of Imperial dogma. In the original Fulgrim novel, the Emperor's Children conduct any number of genocides and unwarranted massacres of both alien and human civilisations, for no greater crime than that they are alien or refuse to submit to Imperial imposition. How is that any less horrific than anything they evince or conduct under Slaanesh? the fact that they commit their prior atrocities in the name of truth and some abstract notion of purity is all the more galling and absurd, given that the excesses are no less vile: they simply take a different form. At least when conducted in the name of Slaanesh there is some honesty and purpose to what they do: they are free and desire nothing but their own satisfaction and the transcendence that might come through transgression. Under the Emperor and Imperial dictate, they deluded themselves with lies of honour and purity, when in truth they were simply genocidal supremacists who attempted to justify their massacres and suppressions with the prettiest and flimsiest of lies.

 

I have far more sympathy with what they eventually become than what they were.

The Nephilim Veteran

The Nephilim

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I totally empathise with your reaction, though I had exactly the opposite: it appears to me that Fulgrim and his legion have not "descended" or degenerated at all: they have reached a status of freedom and enlightenment within the universe in which they operate: Fulgrim's abandonment of parameter following his experiences of possession and confinement seem to me to be particularly enlightened, given that he, like Lorgar, has managed to see and experience beyond the limitations to which he was born and the purpose for which he was fashioned: given that, in the 40K universe, the only alternative to the potential immortality, poetry and purpose Chaos provides is nihilistic enslavement to the Imperium or massacre by aliens, the transformation of Fulgrim and his legion is neither horrendous nor degenerative. If anything, they have simply acknowledged that the limitations with which they were originally conditioned are arbitrary and explicitly designed to maintain a particular status quo of Imperial dogma. In the original Fulgrim novel, the Emperor's Children conduct any number of genocides and unwarranted massacres of both alien and human civilisations, for no greater crime than that they are alien or refuse to submit to Imperial imposition. How is that any less horrific than anything they evince or conduct under Slaanesh? the fact that they commit their prior atrocities in the name of truth and some abstract notion of purity is all the more galling and absurd, given that the excesses are no less vile: they simply take a different form. At least when conducted in the name of Slaanesh there is some honesty and purpose to what they do: they are free and desire nothing but their own satisfaction and the transcendence that might come through transgression. Under the Emperor and Imperial dictate, they deluded themselves with lies of honour and purity, when in truth they were simply genocidal supremacists who attempted to justify their massacres and suppressions with the prettiest and flimsiest of lies.

 

I have far more sympathy with what they eventually become than what they were.

I love you in a completely hetero, no-homo kind of way.

Tenebris

Tenebris

Posted
Posted

Well truth be told we have at least the perfect template to portray a Slaanesh devotee in all the glory and horror that comes with the job. Julius Kaesoron is my hero, really he is the "template" Emperor's Children marine, the standard with which compare all other things related to the 3rd Legion, its Primarch and the devotion of Slaanesh. Lets go trough his evolution.

 

- He starts as a marine with perfect features, a fearsome warrior on his own right and one of the few terminator elite in the EC.

- He shows us a genuine love for literature, history, philosophy and the other cultural pursuits of a noble soul, he is an academic by heart.

- He begins to read progressive literature, to question things, his mind is becoming open to ideas, he questions the imperial dogma.

- He slowly moves from progressive literature and alternative art to a genuine joy of experience and enlightement, his eyes are open.

- He embraces the new teachings of Fulgrim and form the very start his point is proven right, you must experience things to understand them;

- He begins to experiment with excess, first slowly than understands that life is to be sampled and enjoyed, yet he maintains his cultured self as a paragon of the new ideals of the 3rd legion.

- He becomes a proper Slaaneshi, not only he moves like a butterfly in a Terminator Armor but he embraces challenge, culture, joy and sorrow as experiences to be sampled, understood and treasured.

- His mind is at the very end of Angel Exterminatus a heaven for an intellectual, open to any experience, willing to try and taste everything and everything, from small acts to true carnage all is done as perfection incarnate...

 

Hell he even dances in terminator armor, he not only mastered himself to such a degree but he can be genuinely considered as the apex Slaaneshi, a true noble, an intellectual, a philosopher, a dancer, a warrior king and a smart confidante... in short Julius came full circle in two books and the novel, he begun by questioning the imperial dogma and now he not only questions everything but he is willing to experience everything to not only get a "fix" but to actually understand the galaxy around him as a person with open eyes, a willing soul and a brave heart should... he is now illuminated not only by knowledge but also by experience...

 

I think that should be the template for the legion and not the rushed work of Angel Exterminatus. The book should give us a clear answer as it did with Kaesoron.

 

When his face was burned on Istvaan, he thanked the Iron Hand. Well we know exactly why he thanked him for the experience, what this experience meant to him and why this is not a "degenerate" thing to do but a true mark of an enlightened person, of an intellectual that learns by living and not by studying the world around him. And in that case alone I know what means to be an Emperor's Children and a Slaaneshi.

 

Edit:

 

There is one part that is cardinal in the novels, when Julius sees his brothers die and is unable to feel sorrow for them. Than he understands, not only he experienced sorrow before but he understood it in such a degree than now sorrow for a comrade lost is not new to him, he understood the very emotion of sorrow, he experienced it to the highest degree and he know that never again will he feel sorrow, for anything and anyone. He mastered, the perfected it and he understood it, he understood sorrow and this emotion holds no secrets to him. In this very case we learn of the true magnitude of Slaanesh corruption, its boon but also its curse.

The Nephilim Veteran

The Nephilim

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Not so much for me. *shrug* I have gay friends, but that's not my bag.

 

On topic: I've been bouncing back between my highlighted notes from   Fulgrim  ,  Reflection Crack'd  and Angel Exterminatus and referencing my notes from the Liber Chaotica: Slaanesh and the old Slaves to Darkness, and I'm getting rea lly stoked about doing a massive  rewrite to my much neglected Nephilim.

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