What 2014 will bring

[Morticon]

after reading the wolfy dex, i'm a little nervous about what they will do with our characters :( Especially Dante.  

Logan Grimnar has really been declawed/toothed.  He's okay statwise, but for 250 points is just way, way overcosted considering he does nothing to the rest of the army.  Space Marine characters (imo) are really not worth their salt (and inflated point cost) if they dont add something to your army.  And GW sometimes get this really right, but often get it really wrong.  Logan's ability to make wolfguard scoring, and also to give a unit a special rule was not only fluffy, it justified his cost a lot more. 

 

If Dante, Sanguinor, Tycho etc all have army-influencing buffs removed and still have high price tags, theyre just simply and unfortunately named beatsticks.

 

I really, really hope GW doesn't go this route, it will be a terrible loss for them. That sweet-spot/balance between well costed and auto-include really needs to be more finely tuned.  Im glad BA is a while away- it gives them more time to get things right.

[knife&fork]

Logan lost out, but Lukas, Arjac and Canis all became worth taking. 

 

BA characters are all over the place right now, it will  be interesting to see how they change.

 

 

I worry more about my dear fragcannon and DC becoming 1A base :P

[thebymster]

So GK are next?

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/08/grey-knight-codex-information-released.html

Think so.

But look on the bright side: That means they could playtest with two Space Marine armies, meaning we'll get a better codex.

And Grey Knights only get a new codex, so probably causes a 1/2 week delay.

I expect the release to be: Space Wolves, Grey Knight, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Necrons.

That would probably be an October release for Blood Angels, which means I have to save up a :cussload of money as my two armies are Blood Angels and Necrons.

Think yourself lucky; my three armies are wolves, orks and BA!! Imagine my dex bill let alone cards and New models!!

[thebymster]

I'll have to go find a link to it, but I've made a table to capture gains versus losses in the new SW dex. To summarize the results, we lost 7-8 things, but gained about 25 new advantages including lower prices for most units across the board. Overall, we are now in a much better position now than with the 5e dex, and I expect the Blood Angels will be, too, when your turn comes.

Yeah, I'd LOVE to see that table because all the core units I've used for wolves are suddenly more points! 10 GH with 2x melta and fist, used to be 180 pts. Got 20 pts left over? Add a couple of wolf banners. Three units of long fangs with 4 missiles and a las cann, used to be able to pump Lead into 2 targets for 155 pts.... Not any more! Rune priests used to kill MC's with Jaws, nullify warp shenanigans on a 4+, bring the lightning down at will... Now neutered.

I'm trying not to compare with how they used to be, just with what else there is, it could take a VERY long time!

[Valerian]

 

I'll have to go find a link to it, but I've made a table to capture gains versus losses in the new SW dex. To summarize the results, we lost 7-8 things, but gained about 25 new advantages including lower prices for most units across the board. Overall, we are now in a much better position now than with the 5e dex, and I expect the Blood Angels will be, too, when your turn comes.

Yeah, I'd LOVE to see that table because all the core units I've used for wolves are suddenly more points! 

 

 

Here you go.  I might have missed a few things in the excitement after having received my codex.

 

Losses:

▪   Powerful Sagas for all Independent Characters

▪   Free Special Weapon for Packs

▪   Ability to mix Power Armour and TDA within the same Wolf Guard pack

▪   Cheap Combi-Weapons (now double price)

▪   Behind Enemy Lines special rule for Wolf Scouts

▪   Mark of the Wulfen, Choosers of the Slain, Wolf Tooth Necklaces, Wolf Tail Talismans.

▪   Only 1 Wolf Standard per Detachment

 

Gains

▪   New Detachment, Space Wolves Unleashed

▪                     Up to 6 Headquarters choices!

▪                     May re-roll our Warlord Traits

▪                     A chance to Outflank packs (6+), especially Troops (4+) if IC is attached.

▪                     All units have Fear and Furious Charge while Warlord lives.

▪   New Formation, Space Wolves Great Company

▪                     Specific units required  (Wolf Lord, WGBL, Wolf Guard, Wolf Scouts, 5x Hunters, 3x Claws (any type), 2x Fangs.

▪                     May re-roll our Warlord Traits

▪                     A chance to Outflank packs (6+), especially Troops (4+) if IC is attached.

▪                     One unit per turn automatically passes check for Reserves

▪                     All units have Fear and Furious Charge while Warlord lives.

▪   Removal of Headstrong rule from all Claws packs

▪   All Claws are cheaper, as well as several other unit types, including Thunderwolf Cavalry

▪   Unique psychic power discipline table - Tempestas

▪   Unique Relics of the Fang

▪   Runic Armour grants a 6++ Invulnerable Save

▪   Two new awesome flyers - the envy of all other Marine Chapters

▪   The Stormwolf is a dedicated transport for most Packs

▪   Full Grey Hunter packs with Wolf Guard Pack Leader will now fit in both Rhino and Drop Pod transports

▪   Units in Terminator Armour can Deep Strike again

▪   New Special Characters: Harald Deathwolf, and Murderfang (holy cow, Murderfang!)

▪   Dreadnoughts/Ven Dreadnoughts with new special rules, and weapon choices, such as Helfrost Cannons and Frost Axe and Storm Shield combination

▪   Iron Priests can take Servitors

▪   More reasonable prices for some Wolf Guard weapons upgrades

▪   New options for the Long Fang Ancient 

▪   Lone Wolfs no longer take up FOC slot (one per Troops or Wolf Guard pack)

▪   Lone Wolfs no longer give up Victory Points for living

Iron Priests are Independent Characters

[thebymster]

Ok, before we get hauled for tangenting; I admit benefits of new flyers, lone wolves not in foc and getting furios charge, murder fang ill have to test out, looks ok, not a patch on fragioso or DCo dread with B Tallons, but could be fun. Bjorn is improved but expencive still.

I cant play my fave wolf armies the way I used to, for better or worse. I expect the same when BA get up date. My orks now suffer more when they get thinned down but still work the same way, essentially.

What will 2014 bring to BA?

Seems all New dex feature New kit that may change how you played that army previously and New rules / features that do the same.

I guess there's a whole other debate about a playing style that suits the fraction, fraction that suits your playing style, even playing field for all- never mind how much should the fluff influence the game play / rules!!

I guess I'm also missing the way I used to play wolves but I'm sure I would have got bored of it soon and I'll love the challenge of forging an UN beatable Blue army- and a green one- and a red one!!

[SonOfThunder]

I really don't know what could go up in price in the BA dex :)...ok, maybe naked DC are too good for their cost, or the fragioso, but none are autoincludes.

 

Dante right now is too expensive for what he does, so if they remove the "troopify" ability, and make him cheaper, he might see some use at least! Seeing the new formation SWs got that has 2 elites as minimum (and 6 max i think, or 8...dunno, lots of elites) and 0-3 troops (in the new champions supplement, not in the dex), that's a perfect way to represent Dante with a lot of squads of sanguinary guard, and they do get other rules to compensate for objective secured. I understand objective secured is the "clever" way to do it to win more consistently, but other detachments get really fun rules, like the ork horde doing a waaaaagh every turn, or the wolves detachment with lots of outflanking and reserves control. I'd like Dante having an elite formation with something similar to deathwing assault (for instance) and not getting obsec. Specially if sanguinary guard receive the same treatment TWC have received.

 

As long as Dante doesn't appear riding a sled dragged by 2 cherubs, I'm fine :)

 

The wolves have gotten a cc boost and I like that approach (cheaper *.claws, cheaper TWC, assault flyers as dedicated transports...). I really hope they do the same with BAs.

[Valerian]

One thing for sure, is if you have a special rule that is somewhat similar to a universal special rule from The Rules, then yours will be changed to that.  They did that as much as possible in the Wolves dex.  Death Masks, for example, will probably just give that unit Fear.

[sockwithaticket]

If you could only field a Sanguinary Guard army by using a formation in a supplement that would be utter BS (and, accordingly, is probably what they'll do).
If they are going to remove FOC shenanigans from SCs (something I never cared for), then the best possible thing that could be done to compensate is either allow generic HQs with certain wargear or items to do the same and/or provide a handful of alternate, heavily restricted lists in the codex.

eg. Instead of Astorath unlocking the DC army a Warlord Reclusiarch can do so, but if this path is chosen then no other type of infantry can be taken in the BA detachment and all other codex choices become 0-1 except dedicated transports.

[SonOfThunder]

Then again if that formation allows you to come in turn 1 like DW assault or something similar, obsec can be a secondary concern. In general my feel is that the rules in special detachments/formations give more flavour to certain themed forces, while the CAD is used to represent a more regular force. This is the way they are doing things now, and I like it.

 

The FOC is now altered via detachments/formations and not characters. Both the ork codex and the SW codex have lost all their options to swap FOC slots, I'm betting BA will follow the same route.

 

As for DC, who knows what will happen with them in the next dex. So far, every dex has seen radical changes in the way they are fielded. I hope they don't go back to randomising...

[sockwithaticket]

My problem with formations is that, although they're often attempting to add flavour (a good thing), they're actually kind of restrictive as you HAVE to take units x, y and z to gain the benefits. Even my example above of having almost everything restricted to 0-1 goives you a lot of choice over the exact units you include. I then have a secondary problem with these things being put out in supplements and data slates rather than being in the codex proper.

I'm well aware of how things are done now, I just think they could be doing it in a much more flexible and player-friendly way and find the precedent of SW and Orks a little sad.

Ha, oh the days of random Death Company and rolling for red thirst every turn, The look on your opponents face as your death company swelled to ridiculous numbers and the look on yours as those damned devastators ran towards the enemy for a third successive turn rather than doing what you bought them for. Yeah, funny as that could be it wouldn't be something I'd welcome back. I think one change they might make this time is cutting basic Chaplains from elites and offering them as a DC upgrade, with Lemartes as an upgrade to the Chaplain. Other than that DC seem to work for most people (disregarding cost)

[knife&fork]

 

I'm well aware of how things are done now, I just think they could be doing it in a much more flexible and player-friendly way and find the precedent of SW and Orks a little sad. 

 

Just do like most players and ignore the supplements. They will go away eventually.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't want to see every character have Eternal Warrior and I really don't think Dante needs it since it's part of the BA mythos that they are killable like their Primarch yet still they strive. Makes them more heroic. Besides you don't have to put wounds on him or even accept challenges when you have a sergeant around.

 

I agree with Morticon though. Dante needs a reason to be in the army. He's inspiring and grizzled right. Calgar even elected him as leader without complaint. He might not be tactical compared to the Ultramarines or DA (still good though) but he's heroic and inspires it in others. Make him have a truly inspiring commander.

 

I'd say something like 1st turn deep strike from all/half jump pack troops, allow him to keep his ignore scatter and perhaps treat him like a Chapter Banner is a good start.

[Morticon]

Stand to be correct on this, but I was under the impression Dante was the most revered tactician in the Astartes? 

[thebymster]

 

I'd say something like 1st turn deep strike from all/half jump pack troops, allow him to keep his ignore scatter and perhaps treat him like a Chapter Banner is a good start.

Yes yes, I like those ideas. But just WANT eternal warrior and strike at initiative with AP2 axe!!

[Jolemai]

It's unnecessary. Only the Sanguinor should keep EW as he is an apparition.

[SonOfThunder]

Hating supplements just as much. First, they are not translated. Translations are lousy I know (skyclaws in the spanish SW dex can take plasma CANNONS for 15 points ), but yet it's still better to have every local player on the same page. Second, most of the supplement is bloat. Making the codex 20 more pages would've been enough to include the fluff and the new rules. No need to have all those many pictures thanks. Or if they want to go the supplement route, don't make them so expensive. They offer so little value compared to codices...I like the spirit of supplements, they have the ability to complement a codex and bring new life to a faction till a new codex comes. But honestly, a codex and a supplement both as part of the same release is pushing it.

Edit: And what's the excuse for SW lone wolves to have EW? :)

[thebymster]

It's unnecessary. Only the Sanguinor should keep EW as he is an apparition.

Absolutely!!

But he really SHOULD have an AP2 weapon!!

[thebymster]

Lone Wolves have already seen EVERYONE in their pack killed, only they got out alive their protective runes actually work?!?!?

[Captain Idaho]

Stand to be correct on this, but I was under the impression Dante was the most revered tactician in the Astartes?

 

Revered yes but I don't think that's necessarily the most acute. Kind of like how Sanguinius should have been Warmaster but Guilliman and the Lion were the sharper tactical and strategic minds.

 

And I keep thinking back to my first experience with 40K background where we read about the massed combat drop of Dante and his men against Ghazghull's horde where he tore the heart out of the Ork forces.

[tsijben]

Hah! I would like to see them play a game of chess.

The ability to see the future VS two tactical and strategic geniuses.

 

But Dante could do with EW.

He's like the freaking hero of the Empire, being the oldest living loyal Space Marine and coming from a Chapter that already consists of 'Eternal Warriors'.

I think Dante is really 'weak' in his rules compared to his lore.

[Orblivion]

 

I'd say something like 1st turn deep strike from all/half jump pack troops, allow him to keep his ignore scatter and perhaps treat him like a Chapter Banner is a good start.

Yes yes, I like those ideas. But just WANT eternal warrior and strike at initiative with AP2 axe!!

 

 

Of course I would like both of them, but he really only needs one.  For a unit of his cost, 2+/4++ at I1 just won't cut it.  Especially considering that his I6 stat is unique among chapter masters, they completely nullified that advantage with his weapon.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm for Dante's Axe being special. Mastercrafted, two profiles: S+1 AP3 or S+2 AP2 unwieldy. Job's a good'un. I don't like giving people AP2 ignoring initiative for no reason. You can have AP2 at Initiative 6 if you want to pay the points costs and put him around 250pts?

 

Don't understand the obsession with Eternal Warrior. The problem I have is folks just want to tank wounds on their character and this shouldn't be the case. Use Dante differently!

[GrunTeufel]

I'm for Dante's Axe being special. Mastercrafted, two profiles: S+1 AP3 or S+2 AP2 unwieldy. Job's a good'un. I don't like giving people AP2 ignoring initiative for no reason. You can have AP2 at Initiative 6 if you want to pay the points costs and put him around 250pts?

 

Don't understand the obsession with Eternal Warrior. The problem I have is folks just want to tank wounds on their character and this shouldn't be the case. Use Dante differently!

 

A close combat oriented force commander NOT having EW is quite stupid. He is the oldest non dreadnought space marine alive and the rule should apply to him rather than your random force commander. Also, how am I supposed to use a jump pack equipped WS6 I6 guy with an axe differently? He is quite clearly a CC unit. An 250 points commander with only three wounds dying to a power fist/klaw in a challange isn't fair since his peers can do much more for more or less the same cost. It is unbalanced in the worst possible way. 

[Orblivion]

I'm for Dante's Axe being special. Mastercrafted, two profiles: S+1 AP3 or S+2 AP2 unwieldy. Job's a good'un. I don't like giving people AP2 ignoring initiative for no reason. You can have AP2 at Initiative 6 if you want to pay the points costs and put him around 250pts?

 

Don't understand the obsession with Eternal Warrior. The problem I have is folks just want to tank wounds on their character and this shouldn't be the case. Use Dante differently!

 

The problem with that is that the power creep has already happened.  Skarbrand has AP2 at initiative, as does Abaddon and Sammael, and there are probably more.  Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Space Marines all have wargear options that give AP2 at initiative.  Is it really so gamebreaking to give Dante back his I6?

 

Personally, I think Dante is in need of more of a redo than just giving him I6 or EW though.  Start from scratch.