++ The Murderers' Call - A Night Lords Community ++

[Prot]

I keep re-reading NL and I think they look like a decent Detachment. The most negative thing to me is that the scope of the army feels a little limited. I mean basically you are being told you need to assault with the army in a big way.

 

The Artefacts point that way too. It's meant to run bikes/jump packs. It's meant to have a T1 advantage, but I would have given them a  +1 to cover all game, not just T1.

 

The thing is Tau can ignore night fight, but you'll get them blowing Marker lights like crazy. The Fear thing is okay, but it's not the main thing. It's a fluffy thing and I'd leave it at that. But the question I have is.... Is it killy enough? Sure against a shooty foe, the Detachment gives survivability but if you're facing... let's say World Eaters, or GSC, etc, your first turn buffs are largely irrelevant, and Fear won't work in those cases. Now you're just racing to the middle for a slugfest. You think NL has the stabby to compete with Thunderwolves/Wulfen/KDK/etc???

 

^This is the part I'm in question of...

[plasmaspam]

I know I'm probably being dense here, but could someone join the dots for me and illustrate when and how the Raptors as Troops rule actually comes into play?

 

In a CAD I'm assuming, but then how does that gain NL traits?

[Prot]

I know I'm probably being dense here, but could someone join the dots for me and illustrate when and how the Raptors as Troops rule actually comes into play?

 

In a CAD I'm assuming, but then how does that gain NL traits?

 

So I think you're right about the CAD part. Raptors as troops really is only significant if you are playing a CAD.

 

On the rules part; there is a set of army rules based on what Legion you're taking. I'm taking Army X. Which has stipulations and guidelines. If you fulfill those rules (no marks, etc, etc.) Then you get the army rules.

 

But at this point you can play army X in any fashion you want.. unbound, CAD, whatever. However to get the 'extra' rules found in a detachment, you now have to build army X using the force organization chart described by their corresponding Detachment. Then you would have Army X, using Detachment X, gaining rules for accomplishing both.

[plasmaspam]

Got you, that makes sense.

 

So you may declare that your usual CSM CAD is of any legion described herein, and it gains the Legion special rules as long as the restrictions are adhered to.

 

You only get the additional Command Benefits if you roster as per the Legion detachment instead of CAD.

 

Cheers Prot.

[Prot]

You got it. 

 

So playing the Night Lords and using their restrictions and rules is basically going to amount to: VotLW is mandatory where possible, but free! (I sure wish these guys were fearless though).  Night Vision, and Stealth.

 

Also Raptors as Troops (why not Warp Talons though? I friggin love these models. ) And a leadership adjustment to your opponent's fear tests. This is a weird one because what I find is when you get Fear off it's usually not truly doing anything (IE: Tau hit you on 5's anyway!) But when you'd really like Fear to kick in, those opponents are almost always immune to it (IE: GSC, KDK, etc). 

 

And of course by doing this you're accessing their Warlord Traits, and Artefacts.

 

So all of that is included in playing with their rules, no matter what detachment you choose.

 

In the case of Night Lords Detachment you're basically adding the following by taking the Detachment:

- re-rolls on Warlord Traits (pretty standard, but in this case I think the NL have fluffy, but good WL traits)

- ALL units re-roll Charges. (quasi-Fleet)

- The big one: You force T1 Night Fight, and while it's in effect, you add one to cover (this helps against Tau with Black Sun Filters).

 

So to me if you're a Nightlord guy, there is no reason to not take the Detachment if you want to play a non-allied force (You could still play allies, but might be less efficient with their detachment). 

 

There are some less obvious combo's here that might be fun. I've thought of a lot of lists, that use some of these angles to a decent, playable army.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Prot

[plasmaspam]

For me, the downsides to the Murder Talon are no Forgeworld (Hellblades), and the expense involved in using any armour or Obliterates - those Aux formations are very big and costly as a minimum.

 

I lost all motivation for CSM due to the lack of flavour and fluff beyond the big four. Can't deny we now have fluff with crunch, but it's going to take a bit of thinking and rethinking before I decide what way I'm going to go with this.

[Brother Aiwass]

As far as interesting combos the most obvious ones are the Daemon Princes:

 

The Tzeentchian one: Stormbolt plate for 2+/5++/2+++ re-rolling ones. ML 3 and keep him flying.

The Nurgle option: Talons of Night Terror for extra 1D6 S5 AP2 shredding attacks, plus shrouded+stealth (meaning 5+/3++).

 

I'm pretty sure there are others (I like how the Claws of Black Hunt look on a Raptor Lord), but I'm not sure about them but I guess clever people than me can figure them out, and hopefully share their findings xD

 

P.S: Maybe a biker lord with Sigil, power axe and the Stormbolt for S5 T5 AP2 2+/4++/3+++?

 

I also agree with you Plasmaspam about the missed opportunity of the FW stuff. Helblades/talons would be awesome for Night Lords but the only way to include them is via CAD, which is kind of a shame.

[Gree]

Biker Lord with Stormbolt Plate. LC/Fist and Sigil in Bikes with a Biomancy Biker Sorcerer. That's what I'm hoping to test out.

 

Daemon Prince seems like it would benefit from alot of artefacts. Stormbolt Plate being the most obvious one. Wouldn't it be a 2+ re-rollable cover save?

 

Talons of Night Terror being another. Even Claws of the Black Hunt have some use on a Daemon Prince.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So am I reading 'nocturnal warfare' correctly to say if Night fighting doesn't happen in the first turn you can immediate get it for turn 2+ or possibly where you roll for Night fighting on turn 4 and just auto gain it for then 2+ turns with all the benefits?

[shandwen]

So am I reading 'nocturnal warfare' correctly to say if Night fighting doesn't happen in the first turn you can immediate get it for turn 2+ or possibly where you roll for Night fighting on turn 4 and just auto gain it for then 2+ turns with all the benefits?

Wow. I did not even catch that. The rule doesn't say anything about begining of game at all, so it can be used turn four to automatically start night fighting. Bravo for catching that DbH.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

If I'm reading RAW correctly, if you and your opponent roll for NF in turn 1 and it doesn't happen you can instantly say on turn 2 it's Night fighting and have it for the remainder of the game right? This is for sure turn 4. But any subsequent turn you can choose to auto gain Night fighting.

 

Edit* unless I'm thinking of 6th edition. Urge I'll be so glad when they clean up all these rules.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Lord Asvaldir]

I don't have the book in hand yet so I can't confirm if you're wrong or right, but that doesn't sound correct to me. The ability to give your entire army basically shrouded for the entire game sounds a bit too good to be true. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

If the Night Lords player wishes the Night fighting rules to take effect, they are automatically successful; there is no need to roll. RAWif I wish for Night fighting to happen in later turns this could be argued that I can have Night Fighting on any turn. RAI this is probably not a correct train of thought. I'm not trying to break the system or rules, I'm merely asking if I can invoke Night fighting on later turns because it is my wish and it is automatically successful.

[helterskelter]

The rules say if the night Lords player wishes night fighting to take effect they are automatically successful and there is no need to roll. Sounds like forced automatic night fight for as long as that game mode allows it to me

[Kaldoth]

RAW:

 

If the Night Lords player wishes the Night Fighting rules to take effect, they are automatically successful; there is no need to roll.

So, to me this sounds like if there is ever a need to roll for night fighting rules, our word is law. Ex, if after the first turn you have to roll to see if there is daylight, there isn't. But, if the game mode specifically said something like "Roll on the first turn to see if the Night Fighting rules are in effect. Roll each subsequent turn for daybreak. Daybreak automatically occurs on turn 4 regardless of rolls" then at that point we would have no mojo on turn 4+.

 

At least that's how I see it :P

[Brother Aiwass]

Maybe is about time to open a Night Lords tactica thread. So if any of our tacticians would step in would be great.

 

Suggested title: Flaying 101 :P

[plasmaspam]

Maybe is about time to open a Night Lords tactica thread. So if any of our tacticians would step in would be great.

 

Suggested title: Flaying 101 :P

"The Art of Murder"

[Isengrin]

"Slay n' Flay: How to make Rosy Bolton blush"

[Augustus b'Raass]

@ Don't-Be-Haten: sorry to bust that bubble, but about the night fighting: all your interpretations are wrong (sorry, but that's just how it is, I think you're confusing it with 6th edition rules  ).

 

Night Fighting rules in 7th are unambiguous and need no clarification: if the Night Fighting rules are in effect for the mission, then either player can say they want to fight at night. If either player does so, then before deployment on a roll a 4+, the Night Fighting special rule is in effect during turn 1. The Night Fighting mission special rule gives all units stealth. (p.135)

 

There is no chance whatsoever that Night Fighting rules continue in turn 2 and further, nor can they take effect later. 

The Night Lords Formation Detachment gives the Night Lords player the option of having the Night Fighting mission special rule to take effect automatically - with no roll needed. So the 4+ roll to have it be Night in turn 1 isn't necessary. 

[Kaldoth]

@ Don't-Be-Haten: sorry to bust that bubble, but about the night fighting: all your interpretations are wrong (sorry, but that's just how it is, I think you're confusing it with 6th edition rules :unsure: ).

 

Night Fighting rules in 7th are unambiguous and need no clarification: if the Night Fighting rules are in effect for the mission, then either player can say they want to fight at night. If either player does so, then before deployment on a roll a 4+, the Night Fighting special rule is in effect during turn 1. The Night Fighting mission special rule gives all units stealth. (p.135)

 

There is no chance whatsoever that Night Fighting rules continue in turn 2 and further, nor can they take effect later. 

The Night Lords Formation Detachment gives the Night Lords player the option of having the Night Fighting mission special rule to take effect automatically - with no roll needed. So the 4+ roll to have it be Night in turn 1 isn't necessary.

 

This... Is disheartening. Kind of makes it a pointless special rule for us, then. However fluffy, the real advantage of night fighting lies in rerolled charge distances and the bonus to cover. Few units are going to make a turn 1 charge anyway, and as our only large FOC change is raptors now being troops (which are sub par when fighting hard assault units like Wulfen, Death Company, etc) it kind of makes it lackluster. Just a little extra turn 1 survivability from cover saves when maneuvering to objectives and the like. Oh well :rolleyes:

[Sn4k30r]

There are many cool Deamon Princes NL is one of them plus Nurgle as an Iron warrior player i found  this which is tricky for all of us  : 

 

 

Iron warrior Deamon Prince:

Demon of Tzeentch        (rerolls saving throws of 1)

Fleshmetal exoskeleton   (2+armor save plus It will not Die)

Wings       (can jink-jump )     

Veteran of Long war ( FNP 6+

 

So as IW we have 2+Armor save reroll 1,      5+invu reroll 1, or 4+jink reroll 1, plus 6+fnp !

 

 

If you Love Vindicators as i do here is something cool  : 

 

3x vindicators for Line Breaker bombardment,  use Legacy of Ruin in one of them upgrade (gives outflank and fear in a vehicle since they are unit they all take the benefit to outflank and here you are! you have 3x vindicators with Outflank Apocalyptic s10 ap2 ignores cover ! BOOM! :D cheers Brothers :)

[Lord Asvaldir]

The automatic night fight bonus isn't useless for Night Lords, since they get plus one cover at night, Means you basically get shrouded first turn which is a pretty nice bonus to have. 

[ThatOneMarshal]

Anyone know if the Stormplate affects the entire unit for the cover save or just the bearer?

 

I think as a whole, we have to play our army like the night lords in the fluff do, prey on the weak.

 

Prot brings up Wulfen and the like, which our units can't really contend with. However we do have speed and we can use that to fight the less fortunate. We are no world eaters unfortuntaley, however as chaos we have access to a wide variety of allies such as knights as well which is pretty good.  

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Yeah I realized that I was thinking about 6th and not 7th. No worries, no bubbles busted. Maybe 8th will go back to random Night Fighting.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Anyone know if the Stormplate affects the entire unit for the cover save or just the bearer?

 

I think as a whole, we have to play our army like the night lords in the fluff do, prey on the weak.

 

Prot brings up Wulfen and the like, which our units can't really contend with. However we do have speed and we can use that to fight the less fortunate. We are no world eaters unfortuntaley, however as chaos we have access to a wide variety of allies such as knights as well which is pretty good.  

 

Pretty sure stormplate only affects the wearer, affecting the whole unit would be a bit too good. 

 

I think NLs the best way to represent that preying on the weak approach is by going for a lot of fast units, probably focusing on a MSU approach. With raptors as troops you could load up with them for your troops, then lots of bikes for fast attack, with each unit taking 2x melta or plasma guns. Course that approach won't work with the decurion formation.