++ The Murderers' Call - A Night Lords Community ++

[Augustus b'Raass]

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@ Don't-Be-Haten: sorry to bust that bubble, but about the night fighting: all your interpretations are wrong (sorry, but that's just how it is, I think you're confusing it with 6th edition rules  ).

 

Night Fighting rules in 7th are unambiguous and need no clarification: if the Night Fighting rules are in effect for the mission, then either player can say they want to fight at night. If either player does so, then before deployment on a roll a 4+, the Night Fighting special rule is in effect during turn 1. The Night Fighting mission special rule gives all units stealth. (p.135)

 

There is no chance whatsoever that Night Fighting rules continue in turn 2 and further, nor can they take effect later. 

The Night Lords Formation Detachment gives the Night Lords player the option of having the Night Fighting mission special rule to take effect automatically - with no roll needed. So the 4+ roll to have it be Night in turn 1 isn't necessary.

This... Is disheartening. Kind of makes it a pointless special rule for us, then. However fluffy, the real advantage of night fighting lies in rerolled charge distances and the bonus to cover. Few units are going to make a turn 1 charge anyway, and as our only large FOC change is raptors now being troops (which are sub par when fighting hard assault units like Wulfen, Death Company, etc) it kind of makes it lackluster. Just a little extra turn 1 survivability from cover saves when maneuvering to objectives and the like. Oh well

So what you're saying is that us getting a 2+ cover save in the first turn is 'disheartening' and 'pointless'....??? If you think that, you're just impossible to please. Perhaps you would like some caviar, champagne, and truffles with your game too? 

 

Also, the Night Fighting rule doesn't give reroll charge distance at all, that's from our Murder Talon Formation Detachment 

 

 

It is still an awesome rule for us, as it gives us a 5+ cover save in the open, and a 3+/2+ cover save if you're in actual cover/ruins  - which unless you're an idiot you are (if you can´t, there simply isn´t enough cover on your gaming table (remember the 25% rule)). This means you can survive and grab objectives in turn one, and charge in turn 2. Sure, Raptors aren't the best, but they're cheap so we get a lot of them. And combined with the Raptor Talon formation, the Heldrake Terror Pack, Nurgle or Tzeentch Daemon Prince with Stormbolt Plate (which you should ALWAYS take on a DP instead of Power Armour (2+ rerollable jink and armour saves baby yeah)), and the Vox Daemonicus, we can pack a literally terrifying second turn punch.

 

Death Company and Wulven are very expensive compared to Raptors, and will die with Vindicators - which we now can get in squadrons of three ( so Allied detachment with DP, Raptors (because now troops) and one Heavy Support slot) and thanks to the increased cover thanks to Night Fighting, this Squadron is likely to survive, after (or before, if we get first turn) which we can then insta-death, no-FNP both Wulven and Death Company with the Apocalyptic S10 Ap2 Ignores Cover blast. 

 

 

Now, I'm going to take a stand here and possibly hurt some feelings.

 

There should be no more complaining about this release. If you cannot play your favourite strategy anymore, you should adapt it. If you can't, that's completely and utterly on you, and on you alone. I've been competing with my Chaos army using the 2012 codex in competitive tournaments that had high-end Tau, Eldar and Space Marine cheese lists -diary factories even- for years. Our meta constantly shifted with new releases. And I have consistently ended in the top 10%, have played in most (semi-)finals, and won several. All with the basic 2012 Chaos Space Marine codex (granted, with some FW Rapier support, but still).

 

So please, don´t sit on your ass judging this release, for it opens up a whole plethora of crazy powerful combinations. You just need to actively look for them and integrate them into your army and tactics. 

 

Changing strategy and tactics is what the nature of warfare is about. Complaining things aren't to your liking, is like complaining cavalry isn't useful anymore in modern warfare. Change your tactics using the technology and the possibilities at hand, and make the most of it. It's what empires were built on.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Augustus b'Raass

[Marshal Loss]

In 3.5, Night Lords got Night Vision, were able to pay for a Veteran Skill that gave them +1 to cover, they could take more Raptors than everybody else and were able to trade 2x Heavy Support slots for 1x Fast Attack slots.

 

In the Traitor Legions book, you get 6x Relics, a full Warlord Table, Tactical Objectives, Raptors as Troops, Fear, Night Vision, Stealth, Enemies take Fear Tests at -2 against you, and if you take their detachment re-roll failed charges, re-roll your Warlord Trait, bring in mandatory Night Fighting and get an additional +1 to cover.

 

Yeah, the basic codex is still rubbish, but that is an awesome list of bonuses. Nothing to be disheartened about! Bring on more of Augustus' positivity. I have an old pack of winged NL helms lying around and I am seriously tempted to paint up a small Night Lords Warband for mini-40k games. Very cool stuff.

 

Out of interest, what are people running with their Raptor Talons? 3x Raptors, or 2x Raptors and 1x Warp Talon?

Edited December 12, 2016 by Marshal Loss

[Galron]

Ill be running 2 raptors and a warp talon, plus two raptors as troops when I get around to it. My NL need the most work out of all my legion armies to take advantage of the 40k rules. My IW and especially AL are far easier to swap around to bring up to speed for 40k. Once I get my IA book. No marks and no daemon princes, they don't fit the fluff for my legion warband and I leave those for the actual cult armies. Any DP or marked lord in a NL army would get made fun of behind their back and likely the first mutation would be eyes in the back of their head to watch for the predictable dagger taking out the guy so weak he had to bow to chaos for a gift.

[Augustus b'Raass]

Hahaha a Daemon Prince that is laughed at behind his back is a contradiction in terms! He would never have been blessed with Daemonhood if he'd have the character to allow such behaviour! :D

[Isengrin]

Maybe First Claw cracked jokes about Vandred behind his back...who knows. 

 

I really want to build a squad of Warp Talons. While expensive they pack much more of a punch than raptors, and have a high chance of survival with all the boni to cover saves. Besides, lightning claws are just so Night Lord-y.

[Galron]

With you Isegrin, been looking for a reason to build a squad of these cool looking guys even after Traitors hate because the legions rules didn't seem like legions until now. Didn't have the option in 30k for a unit like them that wasn't insanely expensive pointswise thus never built one. With the raptor spam running around and the new rules, they might actually have a chance.

 

My wallet is going to hate me. That and far too much painting to catch up on as it is on my existing legions that don't require new models.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I've never really thought of Night Lords with loads of bikes. But that's one of the first units I'm going to grab. How do you think the Spawn auxiliary will work (if at all) without being able to take marks on them?

 

Always having a 6+(5+ turn 1) seems like it could be a nice little niche (minus no marks) as long as they get bounced between terrain until they can assault. Seems rather worth at least 1.

[Prot]

I've never really thought of Night Lords with loads of bikes. But that's one of the first units I'm going to grab. How do you think the Spawn auxiliary will work (if at all) without being able to take marks on them?

 

Always having a 6+(5+ turn 1) seems like it could be a nice little niche (minus no marks) as long as they get bounced between terrain until they can assault. Seems rather worth at least 1.

 

Spawns are still beasts, and can't be ignored. I mean I run them with MoK because World Eaters or KDK. They're still a threat, but like World Eaters, I imagine the NL will be zooming full tilt ahead and I think Spawn fit in very well as you want something that can keep up, be a threat, but remain economic as your characters will be gobbling up the points on Artefacts.

[Guiltysparc]

I have a question for you night lordy types...i have wanted to paint a night lords army for a little while and i also love the raptor models, so i feel like the new legion book gives me a great reason to do so.  However, i can't shake the feeling that a raptor heavy night lords list would work better as a world eater list (my home legion) given the extra assault oriented WE USRs.  Am i correct about that or what am i missing?

 

edit:  This is the list i am thinking about.

 

 

1850pts

 

Warband:  These guys score the points

 

Vanilla Chaos Lord

Chosen in a Rhino - 2 melta guns, 2 flamers

 

3x Bikers with 2 melta guns

3x Bikers with 2 melta guns

 

5x Havocs with 4 autocannons

5x Havocs with 4 autocannons

 

5x CSM in Rhino with plasma gun

5x CSM in Rhino with plasma gun

 

Raptor talon:  These guys DS in and murder things

 

Raptor Lord - Warlord, Claws of the Blank Hunt, Sigil of Corruption

5x Raptors - 2 flamers, lightning claw and melta bomb on sarge

5x Raptors - 2 meltaguns, lightning claw and melta bomb on sarge

5x Raptors - 2 melta guns, lightning claw and melta bomb on sarge

 

Cult of Destruction:  These guys provide fire support

 

Vanilla Warpsmith

1x Mutilator

2x Obliterators

2x Obliterators

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by Guiltysparc

[Prot]

Funny you mention this... I won't comment on the list, but I will say I've had very similar thoughts into... what works better?

 

Now that I have a couple of games with TL  under my belt and some new experiences, I can try to help answer that question:

 

WE do it better... IF they get first turn, or even better, seize.

 

NL do it better.... IF they go second, or play against a large reserve/cagey force.

 

Here's why I believe that:

- I found the free pre game move is fantastic, and it has reinforced my belief that I will probably never deep strike Warp Talons in the current meta. However, there is no added survivability so a LOT dies in this era of super shooty, grav, rending rifles, etc, etc. So if you aren't able to charge, you're typically going to lose a lot of models to Tau, SM, Eldar, etc.

 

-  Night Lords can set the sun and raise the moon! You have the ability to force that T1 Nightfight. Stealth does not stack, but it doesn't need to because T1 you're getting +1 to your cover. So that even gets around Tau Black Sun Filters. Stealth is all game long.... so you don't get that T1, you're zooming through ruins/area terrain, etc to get a 4+ cover/3+ cover in some cases which leads me to...

 

- Night Lords do Bike Lords better. DG are ultimately survivors, and WE brings the punch (but need the charge!) but Night Lords look really good on bikes to me. There's a bunch of little tricks here to extend that advantage, but I think that's another topic.

 

- NL and WE both re-roll charges. NL lack Fearless which REALLY bothers me. I think it's a major... massive hit on all the "undivided" legions so I give that check mark to WE. I still think the NL should have had skilled rider as well. And "Fear" is so mediocre right now. I've use it so many times and when you really, really need it, it has no effect on that opponent. Example is Tau: They hit me on 5's in CC anyway. They fail fear test: They still hit me on 5's, and I still hit them on 3's. It's largely a waste in most cases.

 

But I wanted to be fair and point that stuff out because it puts the offensive (although conditional) check mark in the WE favour. However, I have found with these new WE rules getting the charge is so massive. I mean counter attack is fine, but getting shot up (no stealth) and getting charged really kills the WE buzz (as it should).

 

Hope that may give something to think about?

 

I have heavily considered this army because 1) I want a reason to read the ADB series. 2) I love the aesthetic of the army. 3) Warp Talons look amazing. 4) I don't think there is a more 'evil' Legion out there (note: I did not say corrupt, and traitorous Word Bearer players )

[Guiltysparc]

Great post sir, thank you

[jumai]

@Guiltysparc

 

If you specifically mean lists very similar to what you've posted... World Eaters looks pretty bad for that list. Considering disordered charge turns off Rage and Furious Charge, units in your list that want WE assault rules for their primary function consist of... one Mutilator. Mandatory MoK on every model (not free!) wouldn't be a great investment here.

 

Your list does skip one of NL's biggest advantages over WE though; Sorcerers.

Edited December 13, 2016 by jumai

[Guiltysparc]

Ya, I should have clarified maybe the list stuff...I run a lot of raptors in the WE version taking advantage of the post deployment move so I was really thinking if WE did assault raptors better than NL.

 

The WE version is a warband with juggerlord, raptor talon with beatstick lord, and a DP.

 

I hadn't thought about the sorcerer angle though, good point.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Guiltysparc

[Lord Asvaldir]

Shouldn't be too difficult to fit the chaos terminator trophy racks to cataphractii. In addition you can always throw on more head/skull trophies to give them a more chaotic look. 

[helterskelter]

It's really easy to add trophy racks to the cataphractii, what's harder is trying not to be a clumsy git and knocking the spikes off

[Augustus b'Raass]

It's really easy to add trophy racks to the cataphractii, what's harder is trying not to be a clumsy git and knocking the spikes off

For that exact reason, I don't use the CSM terminator spiky bits - I got a couple bags of 28mm skulls from a 3rd party shop, drill 1mm holes in them, and stick 1mm wide actual carpenter's nail through them. This produces real sharp spikes which can even survive drops from tables. :tu: 

[Augustus b'Raass]

Maybe First Claw cracked jokes about Vandred behind his back...who knows. 

Vandred wasn´t a Daemon Prince, right? At least, I never read his description as such. I always thought he was possessed by a Tzeentchian daemon. 

[Brother Aiwass]

Yes, MoT and a couple Gifts of Mutations at the most :P

[helterskelter]

Possessed by the end because his old self rises to the surface during a void battle and subsequent demon mocking

[Isengrin]

 

Maybe First Claw cracked jokes about Vandred behind his back...who knows. 

Vandred wasn´t a Daemon Prince, right? At least, I never read his description as such. I always thought he was possessed by a Tzeentchian daemon. 

 

Oh sure, he was indeed possessed by a daemon. But Galron mentioned not just ascended Lords but marked ones as possible victims of ridicule as well. (Which Vandred, technically speaking, wasn't either I think, and so I skirted the issue of accuracy for the sake of a joke) 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

Maybe First Claw cracked jokes about Vandred behind his back...who knows.

Vandred wasn´t a Daemon Prince, right? At least, I never read his description as such. I always thought he was possessed by a Tzeentchian daemon.

Oh sure, he was indeed possessed by a daemon. But Galron mentioned not just ascended Lords but marked ones as possible victims of ridicule as well. (Which Vandred, technically speaking, wasn't either I think, and so I skirted the issue of accuracy for the sake of a joke)

The only problem I'd see with that is that Cyrion and Uzas would both make short work of anyone who laughed at them lol.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

 

Maybe First Claw cracked jokes about Vandred behind his back...who knows.

Vandred wasn´t a Daemon Prince, right? At least, I never read his description as such. I always thought he was possessed by a Tzeentchian daemon.

Oh sure, he was indeed possessed by a daemon. But Galron mentioned not just ascended Lords but marked ones as possible victims of ridicule as well. (Which Vandred, technically speaking, wasn't either I think, and so I skirted the issue of accuracy for the sake of a joke)

The only problem I'd see with that is that Cyrion and Uzas would both make short work of anyone who laughed at them lol.

 

But everyone in first claw gave each other crap. Same with other claws towards first. Although, most of that book was really comically written to begin with. The Slaves are what made that book good. /sigh.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Do we know much of Krieg acerbuss warband? Also do we know anything about who he is devotered to?

[Kol Saresk]

Do we know much of Krieg acerbuss warband? Also do we know anything about who he is devotered to?

1.)It's reported as being the single largest Night Lord warband ever recorded.

 

2.)Nope. Of course, this was written back in third edition when Night Lords were atheists and didn't worship Chaos, even Chaos Undivided, so a daemon prince Night Lord was already rocking the boat.

 

Considering the guy liked axes and rampant destruction, I'd lean towards Khorne.

[Gree]

My Night Lords worship Chaos full force, then again they're very explicitly a splinter warband who broke off from the main legion and barely consider themselves to be VIII Legion.