Blood Angels 'Chapter Tactics' - what do you want to see?

[Disruptor_fe404]

I expect you'll keep Descent of Angels.

 

I expect you'll keep IC Priests who grant FnP and FC.

 

I also expect you'll keep Assault Squads that can take meltaguns in Troops, but those are more of an army list option, not a special rule.

 

I'd like to see you guys get a Red Thirst that makes Furious Charge also grant +1 Initiative, to keep it tactical but 'always-on'.

 

I'm hoping to see you guys get the Raven Guard jump packing in both Movement and Assault phases.

[ChapelXIII]

The initiative bump is something that was cool when it was part of the usr, but now that it has been removed I can't think of a fluff reason why we should have it.

[Blindhamster]

Yeah, i doubt we will see an init buff, id like to see DC require a priest to be controlled again, that was cool.

 

If they dont make up anything special, i'd like to see tacticals gain the option of adding a ccw at a point cost or army wide rage usr plus furious charge, would mean our tacticals would be fairly scary on the charge, but standard after that, which feels pretty blood angel to me.

[Disruptor_fe404]

The initiative bump is something that was cool when it was part of the usr, but now that it has been removed I can't think of a fluff reason why we should have it.

 

That's... Actually a really good point. I might have been getting carried away.

 

Army-wide Rage seems... Almost too good. On paper.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

This thread here a few weeks back and this one here on Warseer helped me refine a few ideas about how Red Thirst should work (as it's the most logical choice as an Army Wide Special Rule that actually is army-wide (not just DoA)). Regular loyalists get Chapter Tactics essentially for free and most of the ones I've heard about are pretty defining and competitive. Red Thirst hardly works as either a characterful or tactically beneficial special rule; in the fluff, Blood Angels all (not just one guy in the squad) feel killing rage building up inside them during battle and the desire to see the claret flow (into their mouths); furthermore, it's not particularly helpful as a special rule because you can't possibly predict which squad it will land on and Fearless Devastators with Furious Charge are silly. Furthermore, the way it works now is more like how Death Company were formed in the pamphlet in characterization; one of these guys has fallen to the Black Rage Red Thirst, and now he joins the Death Company now his whole squad acts retarded.

An idea I latched onto that immediately gets compared to Power from Pain (despite it being only marginally similar mechanically) is that Blood Angels units with Red Thirst (non-vehicles except Dreadnoughts) gain a Fury counter for each player turn they spend not in assault, then when they hit assault, they hit harder and the counters start over. The squad has to take a Leadership test on victory to see if they can Sweeping Advance, modified by how many counters were used (because they're coming down from quite tempting circumstances if they're literally ripping the enemy limb from limb, and have to exert their iron control over themselves).

Sanguinary Priests could help you add counters, Death Company/Mephiston gain them more quickly, Chaplains help you with Red Thirst checks, and different Chapters of Blood Angels express the Red Thirst just slightly differently (Flesh Tearers suffer from its negative effects a lot without Gabriel Seth around, Lamenters don't suffer from it much at all but give your opponent some rerolls on stuff).

I even have one for Knights of Blood; they lose a bunch of easy allies with Imperial forces but get Allies of Convenience with CSM.

Here's the writeup in the rules dev section.

[Disruptor_fe404]

That stuff is awesome!

 

Sadly, GW will come up with something far more like a Copy & Paste.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Quoting someone I trust in pretty much everything, what I expect from Games Workshop:

Imperialis_Dominatus on Warseer:

"I guess I'd throw in my bets with undercooked rules, Blood-Angely
Terminators (perhaps Death Company, with completely unnecessary
Blood-upgrades), a plastic monopose Sanguinary Priest, a dual kit of
Honor Guard and Assault Marines... *too much serious, must satire must
satire must satire)



...and... and... and a Death Company Blood Angel in Terminator Armor
strapped to a flying brick with Blood-Chainfists (S 11 AP 1 Armorbane)
and Clot Cannons (S 6 AP 3 36" Template, Torrent, Fleshbane, because we
do it better Chaos) and the Spear of Telesto protruding from his groin
(power lance with double modifiers- in both directions- Two-Handed, get
that vision out of your head) and works like a FMC and has six wings-
bat wings or angel wings depending on whether he is a Chaplain or
Librarian who has fallen to the Flaw and he has special rules where he
is starting to overcome and channel the flaw and if Lemartes and/or
Mephiston are on the field he does better at that- and he might or might
not die and be reborn as the Sanguinor.



Who is now a FMC the size of an Astartes."

[Disruptor_fe404]

Actually, I do want Sanguinor to become a FMC.

[depthcharge12]

Should DEFINITELY get chapter tactics that give +1 I and S when charging.

[skyst]

While the +1 Initiative on the charge may not seem entirely fluffy to some, I feel like it does a good job of characterizing how the Blood Angels descend upon their enemies in close combat and it totally fits the theme of the army.  Initiative, often thought of as analogous to something like speed/quickness for the sake of the game, is defined as the power or opportunity to act or take charge before others do.  So while other armies may perform other tasks (scanning, contacting HQ, using harsh language, etc) between the shooty and the chargey, the Blood Angels fly into the fray without pause, barely containing the raging taint that boils in their blood.  They descend as angels and emerge as reapers.  There's your +1 I.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I don't understand why some think that the blood angels are completely mad blood thirsty khorne bezerkers. We are not. Some fall to the flaw, but most if the angels fight it for mastery. We do not simply give in to the lust unless the circumstances are dire.

 

I am not interested in being depicted as such, as it would make the sense of nobilityand duty bound null and void, hypocritical at best.

 

Leave that to the flesh tearers, not my blood angels.

[Jorre]

Id rather they focused to the tactical finesse and lightning assault style of the Blood Angels rather than the red thirst.

 

Red thirst should be dropped alltogether in my opinion.

 

Lightning assault.

Any Blood Angels arriving from reserve or deep strike may op to preform a lightning assault.

 

Before the game starts but after both players have deployed, the BA player may move any of his reserve forces into the lightning assault group. He must then declare which turn they will preform their lightning assault. Turn 1,2 or 3. This cannot be changed later. The lightning assault force all arrive at the same time with no further roles.

 

Just an idea I had. Could probably use some tweaking, but it would be a really tactically usefull tool to a deepstriking or reserve force!

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

That stuff is awesome!

 

Sadly, GW will come up with something far more like a Copy & Paste.

 

Thank you!

 

It would fit certain... developments or lack thereof (dare I say that I glanced at my CSM Codex with distaste?).

 

Actually, I do want Sanguinor to become a FMC.

 

But the flying Dreadknight-Centurion? Dreadcenturion?

 

And the Spear of Telesto?

 

Should DEFINITELY get chapter tactics that give +1 I and S when charging.

 

So GW makes a special rule, right? Furious Charge, representing warriors charging more furiously than other warriors into close combat. In fact, they make several versions of the rule that aren't all quite consistent with one another, but they streamline it later. And then lots of armies in the game get units characterized by that special rule, because, let's face it, in the 40k universe, there are several units who charge into battle pretty fiercely. All's well and good, people get used to it, then one edition, GW nerfs the special rule, effectively doing so for all armies out there that have that rule. Every unit that has that rule, specifically a rule defining warriors charging fiercely into combat, gets this nerf.

 

And you think that, of all units to have Furious Charge in the game, Blood Angels units should get the older, better, un-nerfed version back. Because not only do they charge into combat more fiercely than other warriors (hence, Furious Charge), but they charge into combat morer fiercerly than other warriors (hence, Furious Charge +1).

 

Tell my Berzerkers why they don't charge into close combat morer fiercerly. Remember Mackan?

 

EDIT 2: So as not to flood the thread, second, Wolf_Pack. MEQ units with the new Furious Charge vs. the old go from HQ-Initiative to standard Initiative. Orks with the new vs. the old went from okay to just-above-powerfists-tier.

 

EDIT: So, Jorre, kind of like the Imperial Fists Teleport Assault from a few SM Codices, but applied to all units?

 

Also, Red Thirst, dropped altogether in terms of affecting the tabletop? It seems excessive.

 

What separates a Blood Angel from an Ultramarine? His geneseed. What separates Blood Angels geneseed from Ultramarines geneseed? The Flaw. What has been increasingly emphasized as a defining feature of Blood Angels forces, the fount of their divergences from the Codex Astartes? Exactly that Flaw.

 

Therefore, what might a Codex designer utilize from the background in order to portray an army effectively on the tabletop? A capability to coordinate the arrival of supporting elements, something any given Space Marine Chapter could lay claim to the capacity of doing in the background, or the Flaw, absolutely unique to Blood Angels and their Successors?

 

 

 

[Memento Of Prospero]

If anyone deserves the old furious charge back it is the orks brother. It single handedly destroyed they close combat capabilities. Waaaaaagh! Is the first thing that comes to the mind of any veteran 40ker and charging.

[Jorre]

Thats my whole point, Blood Angels shouldnt be defined by red thirst. 90% of the time they behave like normal marines.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

See, I don't think that's an adequate counter. Because while the majority of the time, Blood Angels and friends don't guzzle the vital fluids of enemies they've ripped limb from limb, or fall prey to genetic memories of betrayal that drive them to horrifically violent acts of total psychopathy (as opposed to pseudo-psychopathy, which any given Astartes might indulge in), sometimes they do, and they are alone among all Astartes in the struggle and occasional failure against that eventuality.

 

Whereas being able to have a Thunderhawk drop a unit off over here, a drop pod land there, a squad of bikes outflank the enemy here-a-ways and a squad of jump packers come down from the sky there-a-ways in a coordinated assault designed to overwhelm weak points in the enemy line is... kind of the modus operandi I would expect all Chapters of Space Marines to be able to accomplish in the background. However, since even Codex: Ultramarines Space Marines doesn't allow for such strategic nuance, it is unrealistic and inconsistent (for reasons entirely down to favoritism, like wanting the old Furious Charge back) to expect it for Blood Angels.

 

I'm not saying turn Blood Angels into Khornate Berzerkers, but the possibility for them to run a direct parallel to the bunny-eared can't be dismissed from the tabletop without dismissing the accompanying background.

[Memento Of Prospero]

The space wolves have the exact same problem, ours is not unique. You don't see them charging off in close combat dispite their savage animalistic tendencies.

 

My main concern is that I do not want something that is a minority trait to define us. Dark eldar have the pain token system because that's what they are. Members of the saturday night kink club.

 

I'd rather have a unit or upgrade of some sort for units a la mark of wulfen to represent this, than an army wide defining trait.

[Blindhamster]

They should be better at anything flight related, instinct/genetic memory and all that, they should be better at close combat, but just for the charge which is why a rage/furious charge combo might work.

[Bartali]

If anyone deserves the old furious charge back it is the orks brother. It single handedly destroyed they close combat capabilities. Waaaaaagh! Is the first thing that comes to the mind of any veteran 40ker and charging.

 

Presuming we're talking about 5th ed Furious Charge, the 6th ed change (loosing +1I) doesn't bother Orks  -they're still going last versus Marines and dedicated CC units. Loosing +1I was a big deal for BA, making them strike at the same time as other Marines.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Nob units needed it pretty badly because they are I3 sadly.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Dominatus is right, in a way. What makes the Blood Angels so very different from all the other chapters is the curse. The curse is the reason why they're noble, why their understanding of human weakness and the love to the innocent citizens of the Imperium is a strong characteristic. The curse is why their organisation is different from more codex-compliant chapters, and the curse is the only reason why they used to be better in assault than any other Space Marine, and why they seek the close quarter fighting in battle. It drives them. In battle, the curse is in the back of their minds, and those who withstood the overwhelming memories of Sanguinius' death the night before now struggle to contain their lust for battle and bloodshed until the moment is right to bear down upon the enemy and cut loose. This is what the special rules used to represent, and I strongly believe this hasn't changed how it should be.

 

So, when defining special rules for the 6th edition codex(let's not hope for a 7th edition dex...), we must take the flaw as the base for at least one.

 

A very simple answer is to look back to the days of yore, when determining the effects of the Red Thirst was done every turn. However, this did not represent that the Blood Angels are better in assault, that merely added some disadvantages for an army-wide +1 strength and +1 initiative bonus. Which is not totally OTT, because the BA's geneseed was what made them faster in combat and stuff.

 

I'd like to see that again, actually. It makes sense to blame this on the genes of Sanguinius rather than some tactics, which isn't an appropriate term for army-wide special rules in a Blood Angels codex.

So roll for the Thirst every turn, and add a complimentary movement towards a visible enemy( the roll should be able to be re-rolled when any type of priest/chaplain is around/on the battlefield, we're not berserkers). Also, give +1 initiative and +1 strength every turn a Blood Angels unit charges, no matter if they succumbed to the Thirst or not. At least DC deserve it.

 

Descent of Angels could hardly be any better, actually. It is perfect for jump-pack heavy armies, which have been a hallmark of the Blood Angels for a long time. Perhaps get that chapter trait from the Raven Guard, it suits the Ninth Legion better anyway. ;)

Mech armies can make use of (almost) army-wide Lucifer pattern engines, and I think that's a huge plus over any other SM codex.

 

 

Instead of coming up with new, weird rules or tactics, we should stick to what makes the Blood Angels unique. The geneseed. Sanguinus, who's death affected the Blood Angels more than any other Legion. Add the new fluff and some more benefits when using jump packs. I'd be fine with that. No more than 3 rules in total, I think.

 

 

 

 

Snorri

[Bartali]

Descent of angels isn't great for BA. It's good for shooting units, but not so great for assault. You're often better just running ASM over the able

I'd much rather have the Raven Guard jump pack rule, it speeds up jumpers and gives Hammer of Wrath all the time.

[Terrahawk]

I'm at work so I'll keep it short, but I agree wholeheartily with Snorri and Dominatus. The Flaw is what makes the Blood Angels unique, and it should definitely show on the table-top. And it will, you can count on that (see every single BA army book ever made for reference). The constant struggle against the overwhelming bloodlust and rage, especially during combat, is what makes the BA who they are and is the foundation of their nobility. Just because they are brutal in destroying the enemies of Mankind, doesn't mean they lack nobility and honour.

[JamesI]

One of the problems rules writers face with us is the fact that the flaw is something that only appears in a few circumstances, but without it we're normal marines minus the special rules that make normal marines.

 

Giving us a rule that only appears 1/6 of the time doesn't help, I know a majority of my games no one falls to the Red Thirst.  So basically I'm paying more than codex marines for not as much.

 

There nees to be a balance between depicting the flaw usefully on the table top but not making us Khorne Berserkers (though a Flesh Tearer's chapter supplement that shows the flaw out of control would be cool).

[Memento Of Prospero]

I can see GW selling us a 60$ supplement for Flesh Tearers that reads like this:

30 pages of fluff

20 pages of images

army list: Refer to CSM unit entries with mark of Khorne. You can purchase your CSM codex here, at 60$