What Doesn't Work for You, and Why?

[Jolemai]

I'm sure that many of us read up on various tips and strategies on here (and elsewhere) about our beloved Blood Angels. However, there will always be that one model/unit that, no matter how many times you try it, goes against internet wisdom and performs sub-par at best, abysmally at worst.

 

Use this thread to say what you have that doesn't work and hopefully, the replies will be with advice on how to improve their use. Please don't turn this into a whinge thread as constructive contribution is often best!

 

I'll start the ball rolling with some of mine:

 

Bikes

I have a five man bike squadron with two special weapons. I usually run them with dual Melta Guns but I find that these guys get obliterated far too often to make them worth it and I have yet to field them this edition. My Attack Bikes (fielded in a pair, both with Multi Meltas) fair slightly better. I'm beginning to feel that I need to go for a full ten man squad with them and have a Priest with them but at that price pointswise, I need to build a list around them...

 

Death Company Dreadnought

In it's first three games, it got immobilised three times. Basically, it rarely gets into combat. I've tried podding it direct (bad idea), out of line of sight and Raven drops but I'm not having much success. The Furioso version doesn't fair any better either but when equipped with Claws, my opponents tend to single it out...

 

Mephiston

Personally I love this guy. I'm also a follower of Codex Moticon so I, on paper anyway, know how to use him but it all goes to pot on the battlefield. Last game, he was shot by a Shadowsword and then ate by a Swarmlord (Apocalypse, but still). Before then he was instagibbed by a Hemlock's Heavy D-Scythe. Again, my opponents are aware of what he can do and are wising up on how to deal with him...

[Blindhamster]

honestly the apoc or any kind of very large game doesn't count for much, at that point size stuff just dies all over the place...

 

I have to admit that I've not had much success with bikes and only limited success with melta bikes too, despite toughness 5, the fact they're tiny units means they just dont last. I considered adding a biker priest with them as well, but yeah... points.

 

DC dread has been awesome in the two games I've used it.

 

Actual DC on the other hand? generally dont do much of anything, I only use a 6 man squad, and they die spectacularly before ever doing anything particularly useful..

 

Land Speeders... I havent used one for a couple of editions because I quite literally never know what to do with them, we have other units that can do what they do...

 

Dante (sadly) since his nerf this edition, he feels pretty unusable, his precision drop is alright, but we dont scatter much anyway.

 

Honour Guard, they are just very expensive, and I loath the idea of using them as a shooty unit.

[Jakbal]

I have problems with Deep Striking my Jump Units (Descent of Angels).  It seems like every time I do this I don't get to bring my reserves in until late in the game, and when I do bring them in they get shot to crap before they can do anything valuable.  One issue is that I need to be more aggressive with my deep strikes (closer to enemy models), and I realize that.  But not having the models available until late in the game really hurts me.

 

Also I play against a lot of shooty opponents, and it seems like when I deep strike it allows them focus their shots at the forces I actually have deployed on the board enough to really set me back.

[Blindhamster]

how can that happen? you come in on a 4+ on turn 2... with a reroll! if you only have one unit I guess you might see them not come in till turn 3 but in every game I use reserves I tend to have 75% roughly come in on turn 2, usually something comes in later, but that tends to be the raven because it doesnt get the reroll

[Xenith]

The simple thing is to show us what lists you use.

 

If your units are being targeted and shot to pieces regularly, you may not have enough threats on the board.

[infyrana]

Please Add Context :)

 

I always like to read these threads to see how different units get on in the hands of different people.  But what we fail sometimes to include is the context in which they are being used.  It sounds like the DC dread is awful ... but then, was that the only armour you had in the list, was it the largest threat for the enemy, did you field / drop it in alone, was it the only thing in range etc?  I love dreads, sadly when you run very few and as the only armour option, they are shot down quicker than a dogs dinner :)

[knife&fork]

What doesn't work? 

 

Mephiston (without raven for transport)

Slow on foot and too easily killed by shooting. 

 

Baal preds

Side armor is easily exposed.  

[RenderDead]

What doesn't work?

 

MSU Assault Squads in Razorbacks. 

-Low armor, once stranded hard to get to places, and low model count.

[Xenith]

What doesn't work? 

 

Mephiston (without raven for transport)

Slow on foot and too easily killed by shooting. 

Lots of places to hide when a table has the right amount of terrain

Can move quicker with Wings, only SW can block it from range now, iirc.

Forces people to change how they play against you.

 

 

Your mileage may vary.

[Blindhamster]

interesting, as again I've found the Baal predators to both be pretty awesome.. the assault cannon varient was awesome vs tau, the famestorm was awesome vs orks (3 templates makes for a sad ork player) But both definitely rely on the fact they're fast to be positioned correctly whilst still being able to fire all weapons.

 

I've yet to use Mephiston since we had the new codex (not made a model for him as of yet...) I was also put off by the lack of IC on him, I dislike that we are the only marine codex to have that 'trait' and we have it on three characters which essentially makes them useless additions in most games.

 

I generally find rhinos to be fairly useless now, fast is essentially a waste on a rhino (it's okay on a razorback but still overcosted) we just burn points by having rhinos... which really sucks as I have 6

[knife&fork]

 

What doesn't work? 

 

Mephiston (without raven for transport)

Slow on foot and too easily killed by shooting.

Lots of places to hide when a table has the right amount of terrain

Can move quicker with Wings, only SW can block it from range now, iirc.

Forces people to change how they play against you.

 

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

Even jump infantry with fleet is slow when you need to reach assault and have to take roundabout ways not to expose him. With the standard 25% of varied terrain there's still a lot of open space. Very noticeable if you play 'hammer and anvil' deployment or face fast armies that redeploy easily. 

 

He used to be able to tank a lot of shooting but these days many units can kill Mephiston by themselves in a single shooting phase... all it might take is one missed 'wings' roll or failed charge/run.

[Ushtarador]

Large Jump Infantry Squads. Expensive, dies very quickly and still loses in melee against almost everything because assault marines and all our ICs are actually horrible in close combat :/

[Blindhamster]

Tycho is decent in CC, as is ol' corbs :)

[Xenith]

 

Large Jump Infantry Squads. Expensive, dies very quickly and still loses in melee against almost everything because assault marines and all our ICs are actually horrible in close combat :/

^^ Yea, that.

 

Assault marines haven't been great in combat since the dawn of 3rd ed. Old Furious charge made them acceptable, but now my assault marines kill more through their meltaguns than their chainswords.

[Bartali]

Echo the thoughts on lage jump infantry squads.

 

I persisted with them up until I played a White Scars bike list from the new codex where it was plain that bikes outclassed jumpers. Down to just a few MSU squads in Razors and/or Pods now.

[BloodTzar]

Vindicator, I mean solo vindi is just dead meat for me ussually is able to get one plate down than it dies, almost as every single tank I use. Therefore double or nothing, as the basic spam rule goes...

[ASSASSINAWOKEN]

Here is what I tend to use and have been using since 5th edition. Locally it does fine against the general pool of various armies. I can either win or tie most of the time. The best advantage my list uses is mobility and mass firepower although the mass firepower is of lower strength weaponry.

 

I myself gave up on bikes in 3rd edition. I don't own attack bikes so LSs fill their rolls. I don't own a Strormraven or Terminators either.

 

Here is my list and why I use the units I use.

 

HQ
Librarian (Attached to Sternguard)

Good - Cheap effective HQ
Bad - Crap initiative, usually dies

Elites
1x Sanguinary Priest(Attached to Sternguard)

Good - Saves lives
Bad - Costly with a JP
1x Sternguard Veteran Squad with 5x Additional Veterans, 2x Combi-Melta, Power Fist

Good - Mass firepower and posion FTW!
Bad - ???
* Land Raider Crusader with Multi-Melta

Good - Very hard to destroy

Bad - Can be destroyed the first turn due to a drop pod

*  Use to use a regular LR and in that case the sternguard would be two less.
1x Furioso Dreadnought with Frag Cannon

Good - Can heavily damage or remove units first turn
Bad - One trick poney
Drop Pod

Troops
1x Tactical Squad with 5x Additional Marines, Plasma Gun, Plasma Rifle, Lascannon, Power Weapon

Good - Scoring unit
Bad - Usually sit on an objective most games only firing the Lascannon and rarely the Plasma Rifle
1x Assault Squad with 5x Additional Marines, 2x Meltagun, Power Weapon

Good - Mobile Scoring unit, mobile meltaguns
Bad - Crap initiative, vulnerable to challenges

Fast Attack
Baal Predator with Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Good - Mobile fire support
Bad - Scout can be bad sometimes if opponent is naturally going first or steals initiative, always leave the vehicle half in cover when advancing if can or turned slightly to protect the sides depending upon movement and potential shooting
2x Land Speeder Squadron with 2x Heavy Bolter

Good - Mobile mass fire support, Mobile harassment unit, if left unchecked can devestate enemy units over time, throughout a game I tend to move them back and forth taking chunks from enemy units
Bad - Low armor, have to be hidden first turn
1x Land Speeder Squadron with Typhoon Missile Launcher

Good - Mobile fire support, has missile launcher at 3/4 the cost of 2x Land Speeder Squadron with 2x Heavy Bolter
Bad - Low armor, have to be hidden first turn

Heavy Support
1x Devastator Squad with 5x Additional Marines,4x Missile Launcher

Good - Mass anti vehicle or anti infantry support, bringing the extra marines raises the survivability significantly
Bad - Brining the suqad down to five marines makes them a fire magnet, die, or fall back

 

* I usually have issues with combat initiative and challenges so I try to avoid any direct contact with an enemy HQ or elite unit and instead shott them as much as possible to help whittle away an enevitable assault.

* Scoring units are another issue, but most of points are used in other areas so if I can't claim an objective or win I try my best to destroy my opponents troops removing their chance to claim an objectives or win.

* The landspeeder Typhoon could be replaced, but I have limited options. Possibly a dual multimelta speeder as it would cost a little less allowing me to possibly add a power weapon to the priest.

* I somtimes use 5 DC with JPs, expensive, but deadly, but its either JP or waste the room in a LR to protect them.

* I have 5 SG, but I have yet found a useful way to deploy them or effectively use them.

[Jakbal]

how can that happen? you come in on a 4+ on turn 2... with a reroll! if you only have one unit I guess you might see them not come in till turn 3 but in every game I use reserves I tend to have 75% roughly come in on turn 2, usually something comes in later, but that tends to be the raven because it doesnt get the reroll

 

Bad rolling, I guess.  Maybe it is just one of those aspects of the game that I dread (rolling for reserves) so I remember it more negatively than it actually plays.  I do think that I need to be more aggressive with the deep strike (both in terms of number of units and position), although I've now geared my play style to avoid reserves.  Maybe I should try it again.

[Jolemai]

 

 

how can that happen? you come in on a 4+ on turn 2... with a reroll! if you only have one unit I guess you might see them not come in till turn 3 but in every game I use reserves I tend to have 75% roughly come in on turn 2, usually something comes in later, but that tends to be the raven because it doesnt get the reroll

Bad rolling, I guess. Maybe it is just one of those aspects of the game that I dread (rolling for reserves) so I remember it more negatively than it actually plays. I do think that I need to be more aggressive with the deep strike (both in terms of number of units and position), although I've now geared my play style to avoid reserves. Maybe I should try it again.

 

 

Do you field Corbulo at all? Affecting that potentially game-changing reserve roll is a choice by many for his re-roll.

 

Vindicator, I mean solo vindi is just dead meat for me ussually is able to get one plate down than it dies, almost as every single tank I use. Therefore double or nothing, as the basic spam rule goes...

Spam or target saturation. Also, what are you covering the side armour with, if anything?

[Jolemai]

The simple thing is to show us what lists you use.

 

If your units are being targeted and shot to pieces regularly, you may not have enough threats on the board.

In my case, the lists I use can be found in my signature whilst the battle reports for them can be found in my blog. The Death Company Dreadnought is in the Death Company army and arrives by Drop Pod - the main problem is isolation and/or positioning that I feel I need to improve on. Mephiston is fielded with a mech force to ensure mobile cover.

 

I also feel that I need to be more aggresive with my red lists and less aggresive with my black lists.

[Sinister Karma]

Combat Squads. 

 

You would think depending on the game scenario and equipment they could sneak and take and hold objectives, I've not had that work out at all. The unit just can't stand up to anything due to its size.

 

Large squads I haven't had to much trouble with. Mostly because I run a priest with them. 

[knife&fork]

Unless you are playing killpoints there's hardly any reason not to combat squad! 

 

Same damage output but twice the targets and more options in terms of movement, deployment and targeting. 

[Jolemai]

Unless you are playing killpoints there's hardly any reason not to combat squad! 

 

Same damage output but twice the targets and more options in terms of movement, deployment and targeting. 

And two Krak Grenades ;p

[Sinister Karma]

I'm just saying from my experience, it hasn't been very effective. I usually trying to use a combat a squad (or 2) late game to snag an objective(s), but haven't had much luck.

[Chaplain Admetus]

This really, really pains me to say, but what 'doesn't work' for me at present is, in fact... Blood Angels. So overcosted compared to every other marine army, an uphill battle with a melee-focussed force in a game built around shooting, HQ choices that are more expensive than the equivalent elsewhere and get you less, a 1/6 chance of making each unit in your army actively worse for the duration of the game. That and a comparatively high percentage of Blood Angels players at my local club have resulted in me busting out my much lesser seen Dark Eldar as they provide everyone else with variety, and give me as a player a much more tactical and enjoyable game than seeing if my self-gimping marines can somehow outlast a marine force that outnumbers me 3:2 and has benefits to their force.