codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[the jeske]

That feel when CS are possessed ... in fluff each one of them ...but no rules for CS possessed marines. That would be fun.

[Bishope]

On the question of why beasts:

 

"Beast can move up to 12" in the Movement Phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain (even when charging)"

Page 48, BrB.

 

If they are beasts then they don't need grenades and can actually move even better that bikes or jump troops, who can suffer wounds from terrain tests. Its also very fluffy, IMO.

 

Edit: I just found this entry in the FAQ

 

Q: Do models that ignore difficult terrain when moving or

charging still fight at Initiative step 1 if they charge through

difficult terrain? (p22)

A: Yes.

 

So they still need grenades.

[Ammonius]

 

On the question of why beasts:

 

"Beast can move up to 12" in the Movement Phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain (even when charging)"

Page 48, BrB.

 

If they are beasts then they don't need grenades and can actually move even better that bikes or jump troops, who can suffer wounds from terrain tests. Its also very fluffy, IMO.

 

Edit: I just found this entry in the FAQ

 

Q: Do models that ignore difficult terrain when moving or

charging still fight at Initiative step 1 if they charge through

difficult terrain? (p22)

A: Yes.

 

So they still need grenades.

Ohhh!

If Codex Crimson Slaughter turned Possessed Marines into Unit Type: Beast Troops then I will buy two units worth to be led by the Defiler Lord that I also would need to build.

 

(The Defiler Lord has a reverse master/blaster relationship with a clone/servitor in power armor that mimics a more conventional Chaos Lord to the wider world so that no one suspects that the Defiler Lord is actually in charge.)

[Bishope]

 

 

On the question of why beasts:

 

"Beast can move up to 12" in the Movement Phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain (even when charging)"

Page 48, BrB.

 

If they are beasts then they don't need grenades and can actually move even better that bikes or jump troops, who can suffer wounds from terrain tests. Its also very fluffy, IMO.

 

Edit: I just found this entry in the FAQ

 

Q: Do models that ignore difficult terrain when moving or

charging still fight at Initiative step 1 if they charge through

difficult terrain? (p22)

A: Yes.

 

So they still need grenades.

Ohhh!

If Codex Crimson Slaughter turned Possessed Marines into Unit Type: Beast Troops then I will buy two units worth to be led by the Defiler Lord that I also would need to build.

 

(The Defiler Lord has a reverse master/blaster relationship with a clone/servitor in power armor that mimics a more conventional Chaos Lord to the wider world so that no one suspects that the Defiler Lord is actually in charge.)

I didn't mean that as "this unit would be awesome if they where beasts!" That was mostly in response to an earlier question.

 

For these units to be good, they would need a great deal of other changes too. Mostly a large price drop.

[Urauloth]

That is a cool cover. Here's hoping for a pleasant surprise.

 

The black legion cover is pretty neat too, though, so I wouldn't get your hopes up

[Vesper]

The Black Legion supplement does a good job, fluff-wise. The Crimson Slaughter one might also be a pleasant read.

[Ammonius]

 

 

 

On the question of why beasts:

 

"Beast can move up to 12" in the Movement Phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain (even when charging)"

Page 48, BrB.

 

If they are beasts then they don't need grenades and can actually move even better that bikes or jump troops, who can suffer wounds from terrain tests. Its also very fluffy, IMO.

 

Edit: I just found this entry in the FAQ

 

Q: Do models that ignore difficult terrain when moving or

charging still fight at Initiative step 1 if they charge through

difficult terrain? (p22)

A: Yes.

 

So they still need grenades.

Ohhh!

If Codex Crimson Slaughter turned Possessed Marines into Unit Type: Beast Troops then I will buy two units worth to be led by the Defiler Lord that I also would need to build.

 

(The Defiler Lord has a reverse master/blaster relationship with a clone/servitor in power armor that mimics a more conventional Chaos Lord to the wider world so that no one suspects that the Defiler Lord is actually in charge.)

I didn't mean that as "this unit would be awesome if they where beasts!" That was mostly in response to an earlier question.

 

For these units to be good, they would need a great deal of other changes too. Mostly a large price drop.

Hey, don't shy away from having had a cool idea :) Possessed that could keep up with Spawn and vehicles (on open ground) would generate a lot of pressure in the early turns as you rolled across the table regardless of most terrain.

[Minsc]

If Possessed where actually beasts (or at the very least, Jump) I would field them alot more often.

 

Possessed in elites, Spawns in fast and Maulerfiends in heavy - backed up by a  juggerlord and a flying daemon prince...ahh, if only.

[Sception]

As they are, simply adding jump to possessed would just make them worse warp talons, and we don't need that.

 

A complete re-think of possessed is needed, and has been needed for some time.  Blood Angels death company or Space Wolves wolfen would provide a better template for interesting, lore-friendly, game-usable possessed than the current possessed rules, or any previous version thereof really, including their 3.5 incarnation.

[Smurfalypse]

I am honestly at a loss at why people are so upset about this release, I mean it is not like they are taking anything away from us. It is literally just another option over Black Legion to take as an ally (or primary). Nothing wrong with that at all, and as Kol has been saying, the Warbands need lovin' too.

 

Possessed as troops is kinda crappy but you know what? You are not forced to take them, I am sure Cultists and CSMs will be right there available for the taking :P

A lot of misplaced bitter from you folks, I mean I would have loved to get a Word Bearer or Alpha Legion or Thousand Sons supplement but for now we have a newer Warband who needs some filling out for people to play. Nothing wrong with that at all, get over it.

[Wayniac]

I am honestly at a loss at why people are so upset about this release, I mean it is not like they are taking anything away from us. It is literally just another option over Black Legion to take as an ally (or primary). Nothing wrong with that at all, and as Kol has been saying, the Warbands need lovin' too.

Possessed as troops is kinda crappy but you know what? You are not forced to take them, I am sure Cultists and CSMs will be right there available for the taking

A lot of misplaced bitter from you folks, I mean I would have loved to get a Word Bearer or Alpha Legion or Thousand Sons supplement but for now we have a newer Warband who needs some filling out for people to play. Nothing wrong with that at all, get over it.

I think it's more just the hope that GW will realize the problems of the game and actually address them, instead of glossing over it and pretending that there isn't anything wrong.

[Bishope]

I just had a random thought, and yes it did hurt a little. Mortis was put into a helbrute, and if he is in the codex he would be an Independent Character. So does that mean we might get a helbrute HQ? This might be a pretty cool thing. Not defiler HQ good, lol, but pretty neat.

[Sception]

It's a matter of opportunity cost.  The effort put into this, minimal as it might have been, could have been put into one of the established chaos subfactions, which are far more in demand.  Even if they wanted to avoid the heresy legions, there's still the red corsairs or the like.  It just feels like a tone-deaf decision.  Early on, around the time of the starter sets release, it might have made more sense, but now?  There's a point at which deliberately ignoring the requests of the fanbase starts to feel spiteful.  The amount of goodwill they could have earned from something like a night lords book, even with rules as simple as troop raptors, and replace the +1 leadership granted by vets with night vision and cause fear...

 

Otherwise, these supplements don't have a lot of rules, making possessed troops is likely the bulk of what this supplement does.  If you're not going to use the options it provides, then why are you paying us$50 for the book?  The Black Legion book was the same way - a dud in terms of gameplay, but you could argue it as a decent purchase for big time Black Legion fans for the fluff and scenarios.  How many crimson slaughter fans are there, really, to try and argue the same here?  And it's priced well out of the range of most chaos players random curiosity budget, so between that and the rules that we know of being, frankly, laughable, I don't exactly see the CS picking up a lot of fans from this supplement.

 

I mean, there's still time for the situation to change.  If the book somehow updates possessed to be a tolerable unit in addition to making them troops, or if the new relic options are particularly useful and interesting, or if they make kranon or his father legit special characters with some real tabletop influence, then the book might yet win some people over, but as it is, it's just another in a series of painfully tone-deaf moves in GW's handling of the chaos faction.

 

And that's not even coming from a place of bitterness.  As I mentioned earlier, 'troop possessed' just took the whole thing to the point of being downright funny, as far as I'm concerned.

[Wayniac]

I recall reading somewhere that these supplements are somebody's pet project that they do themselves and then hand along as "Hey this might be worth packaging up", so maybe that's why it's coming out now?  Sombody on the team liked Crimson Slaughter (or came up with them in the first place?) and expanded on it, and the higher ups were like "Hmm we are releasing some new Chaos stuff soon, this looks like a good thing to package with it".

 

Or not.

[Minsc]

I recall reading somewhere that these supplements are somebody's pet project that they do themselves and then hand along as "Hey this might be worth packaging up", so maybe that's why it's coming out now?  Sombody on the team liked Crimson Slaughter (or came up with them in the first place?) and expanded on it, and the higher ups were like "Hmm we are releasing some new Chaos stuff soon, this looks like a good thing to package with it".

 

Or not.

 

The dataslates are the "pet projects", not the supplements.

[Sception]

That's fine, but when you're a business paying people to produce a product to sell to a customer base, the 'pet projects' you fund need to coincide with the products your customers want to buy (and have been crying and begging for you to let them buy for years), otherwise you're just making poor decisions.

[Smurfalypse]

I am honestly at a loss at why people are so upset about this release, I mean it is not like they are taking anything away from us. It is literally just another option over Black Legion to take as an ally (or primary). Nothing wrong with that at all, and as Kol has been saying, the Warbands need lovin' too.

Possessed as troops is kinda crappy but you know what? You are not forced to take them, I am sure Cultists and CSMs will be right there available for the taking

A lot of misplaced bitter from you folks, I mean I would have loved to get a Word Bearer or Alpha Legion or Thousand Sons supplement but for now we have a newer Warband who needs some filling out for people to play. Nothing wrong with that at all, get over it.

I think it's more just the hope that GW will realize the problems of the game and actually address them, instead of glossing over it and pretending that there isn't anything wrong.

Not really a ton of problems with the game. I have been playing since early 2nd edition and to be honest this is probably my favorite one so far.

Some Codexes being stronger than others has been an issue since the game began down that path, it is an issue with other table top wargames that are currently out and people claim "have a much better system".

Problem with the CSM Codex is not a problem with the game, it is a problem with a :cussty Codex. That will be handeled when we get a new one.

I am more shocked at how much vitriol is thrown at something like this, I mean who cares? It is the Crimson Slaughter, either you want the book or you dont. If you do not then why get all pissy? Just seems like complaining for the sake of complaining in this case.

I understand people dislike the last two Codexes, I understand it is super bland and does not have a ton of options.

I play it too, religiously. I play it in super competitive environments and with friends in friendly games where I take a bunch of BS :P I get it, but this is just unwarrented in this case.

[Sception]

Actually, I'd argue that there are a number of problems with the game right now.  The current terrain and line of sight rules are a pain, the challenge rules in close combat are exploitable and immersion breaking and the complete opposite of epic moments, the rules for fliers are rather poorly integrated, as are the recent fortification and lord of war/D weapon additions, the allies rules, hull points are a good idea, imo, but have had a devastating effect on the functionality of light to medium armored walkers, etc.

 

There were a ton of interesting ideas thrown into the mix in 6th edition, but almost none of them seem fully baked, and the undercooked result is prone to causing food poisoning.  I'm hopeful that a 7th edition might be able to take what's already there and just clean it up so it works right and actually creates the cool, narrative moments on the board that they were clearly aiming for, instead of getting in the way of them.

[Smurfalypse]

It's a matter of opportunity cost.  The effort put into this, minimal as it might have been, could have been put into one of the established chaos subfactions, which are far more in demand.  Even if they wanted to avoid the heresy legions, there's still the red corsairs or the like.  It just feels like a tone-deaf decision.  Early on, around the time of the starter sets release, it might have made more sense, but now?  There's a point at which deliberately ignoring the requests of the fanbase starts to feel spiteful.  The amount of goodwill they could have earned from something like a night lords book, even with rules as simple as troop raptors, and replace the +1 leadership granted by vets with night vision and cause fear...

 

Otherwise, these supplements don't have a lot of rules, making possessed troops is likely the bulk of what this supplement does.  If you're not going to use the options it provides, then why are you paying us$50 for the book?  The Black Legion book was the same way - a dud in terms of gameplay, but you could argue it as a decent purchase for big time Black Legion fans for the fluff and scenarios.  How many crimson slaughter fans are there, really, to try and argue the same here?  And it's priced well out of the range of most chaos players random curiosity budget, so between that and the rules that we know of being, frankly, laughable, I don't exactly see the CS picking up a lot of fans from this supplement.

 

I mean, there's still time for the situation to change.  If the book somehow updates possessed to be a tolerable unit in addition to making them troops, or if the new relic options are particularly useful and interesting, or if they make kranon or his father legit special characters with some real tabletop influence, then the book might yet win some people over, but as it is, it's just another in a series of painfully tone-deaf moves in GW's handling of the chaos faction.

 

And that's not even coming from a place of bitterness.  As I mentioned earlier, 'troop possessed' just took the whole thing to the point of being downright funny, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I agree, the vast majority of CSM players wanted something different. The problem is we have heard from the beginning that the more simple Supplements would come out first and get more complex over time. . . So what has changed to make you so bitter about this particular Supplement drop?

[Sception]

That's why I said 'night lords' or 'red corsairs', and not 'world eaters' or 'thousand sons' in my examples of what would have been more sensible choices.  Neither of those would have required any more complication than Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter.  It isn't about doing 'simpler first', it's more that there just isn't a rational plan in place at all.

[Smurfalypse]

Actually, I'd argue that there are a number of problems with the game right now.  The current terrain and line of sight rules are a pain, the challenge rules in close combat are exploitable and immersion breaking and the complete opposite of epic moments, the rules for fliers are rather poorly integrated, as are the recent fortification and lord of war/D weapon additions, the allies rules, hull points are a good idea, imo, but have had a devastating effect on the functionality of light to medium armored walkers, etc.

 

There were a ton of interesting ideas thrown into the mix in 6th edition, but almost none of them seem fully baked, and the undercooked result is prone to causing food poisoning.  I'm hopeful that a 7th edition might be able to take what's already there and just clean it up so it works right and actually creates the cool, narrative moments on the board that they were clearly aiming for, instead of getting in the way of them.

 

Terrain and LoS issues do not come up in games I play, not sure exactly what you are referring too.

 

Challenges work for me, they are almost a non-issue most games. Though I agree that they could be done without as they are mostly useless.

 

Fliers work fine in most of my games as well. Yeah, a handful of armies can spam them (none of which really win many tournamanets to be honest), but it is another aspect of the game that we all must account for.

 

Super Heavies are not that bad to be honest, neither are the D-Weapons. The issue has been more with a single model that is seriously seriously insane (Silly Eldar). You can find proof of this in batter reports where people use these and in the few tourney results where they were allowed. You may not like them and if you wish you do not have to play against them, but that is your preference.

 

Light and medium vehicles have suffered this edition mostly due to the changes to CC more than anything. I certainly see Wave Serpents all over the joint whenever I go to a tourney :P Same with Chimeras and there are always a few Necron Mech lists I have to contend with. A few Dark Eldar players spam the crap out of their vehicles still, Trukks are still decent (all opened top vehicles tend to still be viable). The issue here is more with the Rhino and how good Bikers have become. Why take a unit in a Rhino when you can take a scoring unit of Bikers for the same price that are tougher and output more shooting? Why take 220pts of CSM in a Rhino when you can run 55 Cultists instead?

 

 

I 100% agree with you that I hope 7th edition really just cleans up this edition to make it all that much better, I have had more fun with this edition  (with the CSM Codex that you hate to much) than I have in any other edition. In 5th I only lasted 1.5 years because of how bland the base rules were, so far this edition has kept me involved the entire time. I know this just my opinion but if I have this opinion I cannot be the only one.

Also, I agree out Codex is trash, I just want to point out that blaming the edition just your inner CSM spreading its bitter embrace to everything around you :P

[Smurfalypse]

That's why I said 'night lords' or 'red corsairs', and not 'world eaters' or 'thousand sons' in my examples of what would have been more sensible choices.  Neither of those would have required any more complication than Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter.  It isn't about doing 'simpler first', it's more that there just isn't a rational plan in place at all.

 

Not if they are not ready. I mean some of those should make some serious changes to how our armies are played.

You know there isnt a rational plan in place right? You been to the board meetings and know this first hand right? Or did you not get what you want and now say irrational things?

 

Again, dont get me wrong. I do not like our last two editions of the CSM Codex, I am not defending that, but to say they have no idea what they are doing is just dense :(

[Wayniac]

A bit off topic but one of the main things I dislike about the current edition (and the previous?) is that I wish there was more flexibility.  I played in 2nd and loved that you could easily have themed armies; e.g. I could take all Terminators and just have a smaller army.  It would be neat if that was brought back without needing an expensive special character or whatnot to do it.  The FOC hasn't worked out and should just be gone and go back to percentage restrictions or even like how WHFB has Core/Special/Rare.  That would give us the freedom to make themed armies that fit a certain playstyle.

[Sception]

 

Actually, I'd argue that there are a number of problems with the game right now.  The current terrain and line of sight rules are a pain, the challenge rules in close combat are exploitable and immersion breaking and the complete opposite of epic moments, the rules for fliers are rather poorly integrated, as are the recent fortification and lord of war/D weapon additions, the allies rules, hull points are a good idea, imo, but have had a devastating effect on the functionality of light to medium armored walkers, etc.

 

There were a ton of interesting ideas thrown into the mix in 6th edition, but almost none of them seem fully baked, and the undercooked result is prone to causing food poisoning.  I'm hopeful that a 7th edition might be able to take what's already there and just clean it up so it works right and actually creates the cool, narrative moments on the board that they were clearly aiming for, instead of getting in the way of them.

 

Terrain and LoS issues do not come up in games I play, not sure exactly what you are referring too.

 

Random special terrain that tends to get ignored outright where I play, and when it is used tends to add more hassle and consume more time than its worth in terms of actual gameplay effect. TLOS being a hassle with a number of terrain kits, including GW's not really being designed for it. Entire units shooting through a single window at targets behind, forests that aren't forests because the game treats them as just three trees, that sort of thing. Wacky wound allocation rules, barrage sniping, single ICs with 2+ saves tanking all AP3 and less wounds for an entire massive squad in shooting or melee, that sort of thing. Rules that lend themselves more to immersion breaking exploitation than any sort of narrative building.

 

 

Challenges work for me, they are almost a non-issue most games. Though I agree that they could be done without as they are mostly useless.

 

Where as for me they're awkward, and again frequently immersion breaking.

 

 

Super Heavies are not that bad to be honest, neither are the D-Weapons.

 

I love super heavies conceptually (as I love allies, challenges, fliers, and the like conceptually), but in game the level to which they invalidate elite or expensive units is just frustrating to me, rather than fun.

 

 

Light and medium vehicles have suffered this edition mostly due to the changes to CC more than anything. I certainly see Wave Serpents all over the joint whenever I go to a tourney

 

Are wave serpents walkers? I could swear wave serpents were not walkers. But if they are, maybe I'll retract my comment on light to mid armored walkers.

 

 

I 100% agree with you that I hope 7th edition really just cleans up this edition to make it all that much better, I have had more fun with this edition  (with the CSM Codex that you hate to much) than I have in any other edition.

 

Your experience is different than mine then. I've found actual games played in this edition to be slow and awkward (I spend more time setting up, deploying, looking up wacky terrain rules, and cleaning up after the game than I do actually playing, which dramatically saps my fun), full of moments that break immersion rather than building stories, and while most of my personal frustration is due to our codex and not the rules as a whole, the rules as a whole haven't helped.

[the jeske]

The best options for next edition would be to not make a csm codex at all. 1 codex for legions ,renegades won't be good . But make 1 good book for one force. I don't care if it is BL , CS or what ever .It is easier to make one of those.

 

 

 

Super Heavies are not that bad to be honest, neither are the D-Weapons.

Go to this forum BA section read Morticons least topic about regionals .